EPT[G] Belial’s Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT! - Page 3
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Chrono000
Korea (South)358 Posts
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
When you sacrifice the early overlord and see that he's clearly going mech, immediately getting two extractors, later adding on a third, lets you get about 20 +1 speedroaches ready to be dropped at the 10min mark. It does cost some economy, but more often than not I am capable of taking out the entire mech army right there, including a bunch of SCV's. Naturally this is stronger on a map where you can force his army out of position, pick up again and just hit the front. Seeing a Mech army run back and forth like a headless chicken always makes me happy  | ||
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SmexMyPocky
Canada31 Posts
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joeyBanana
Germany77 Posts
another question regarding mutas, this time specifically coined towards your great guide: The 50+ part is the "standard" build-up, towards the midgame, as i understood, right right ? I just wanted to know, how do you play it out exactly with mutas in the mid. There are several approaches to the style, as far as i know. Some guys like to go double upgrades and rely on upgraded lings, until the mutas come out. Other players go for no upgrades at all, just bane-speed and bank all the gas to pump out 10 to 12 mutas at once, with 5 to 6 geysirs behind it. My approach would be going for carapace and banes (+speed), and than bank my gas for the mutas. If im getting pushed by that time, i would defend with roaches (which i made b4 to take a 3rd against reactor hellions) and banes, to hold what comes and than go for a lower muta count. After that, keep him pinned, until im maxed on lings/banes and try to bust and/or keep him busy, while i expand and tech up towards hive. It just doesnt feel "right", when i go for mutas and than go for an infestation pit, because i couldve gone for it straight anyways. I almost feel obligated to bust him and try to break through, skip on upgrades and play very "all-inny", as far as someone can say that about 3 to 4 base play. As i read your guide, i suppose this feeling is just wrong, cause it seems that its quite possible to tech up behind mutas, as long as you keep your flock together and dont spend too much gas on them. But where do you squeeze in your ground upgrades (beside +1 carapace), since when you want to go for hive play, you prolly cant skip on upgrades, as long as you dont want to bust him in the mid, am i right ?! On a sidenote: What do you think about flyer upgrades regarding mutas, not broodlords ? And when do you take gas 5+6 ? Didnt found anything regarding these topics in your guide or im just 2 stupid/blind to find the right section. hopefully you get my thoughts, since english isnt my native language ! thx in advance, keep up the good work ! greetz joeyB | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
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CakeOrI)eath
United States327 Posts
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lhr0909
United States562 Posts
On May 30 2012 01:20 Blasterion wrote: you don't fool me Belial, you will never have the Black soulstone! but I liked your guide nonetheless, I felt it had great insight. But the Black Soulstone will never be yours! :D love this comment | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Belial, I am curious, have you ever tried dropplay vs mech..? When you sacrifice the early overlord and see that he's clearly going mech, immediately getting two extractors, later adding on a third, lets you get about 20 +1 speedroaches ready to be dropped at the 10min mark. It does cost some economy, but more often than not I am capable of taking out the entire mech army right there, including a bunch of SCV's. Naturally this is stronger on a map where you can force his army out of position, pick up again and just hit the front. Seeing a Mech army run back and forth like a headless chicken always makes me happy I have tried it. I describe it in my guide, although not explicitly. I talk about using roach aggression against mech - you can go for nydus, drops, multi-pronged attacks, burrow move, roach/bane, roach/infestor, upgraded roaches. Personally, I don't think roach drops is a good idea - you generally want to tech quicker against mech (as long as you rule out 2 base all-in, if he's doing that, you are going to be defensive anyways), and drop tech limits that. Furthermore, mech is going to be turtling on 3 bases - why would you drop attack a mech player who is turtling, has no plans to push out anytime soon, and has his army all nearby? Now, roach aggression can be successful, but I've never had a problem using just plain roach aggression. If you use roach drops, try re-watching your replays and see if you really needed the roach aggression. Maybe a simple a-move would have won the game. But that's just my personal style of play, too. I know roach aggression can be very effective, but I'm a very macro oriented player. Going for any sort of mass roach aggression in general, is quite all-in if it doesn't work, so I tend not to do such aggression unless I know for sure it will work (terran doesn't make enough tanks, too many thors, too many hellions, he's making banshees/ravens too early off of 2 base). mass speedlings > mass thor? No. Especially with hellions, tanks, or worst of all, repair. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On May 30 2012 01:18 joeyBanana wrote: thx for the input @ the ZergHelpMe thread bro another question regarding mutas, this time specifically coined towards your great guide: The 50+ part is the "standard" build-up, towards the midgame, as i understood, right right ? I just wanted to know, how do you play it out exactly with mutas in the mid. There are several approaches to the style, as far as i know. Some guys like to go double upgrades and rely on upgraded lings, until the mutas come out. Other players go for no upgrades at all, just bane-speed and bank all the gas to pump out 10 to 12 mutas at once, with 5 to 6 geysirs behind it. My approach would be going for carapace and banes (+speed), and than bank my gas for the mutas. If im getting pushed by that time, i would defend with roaches (which i made b4 to take a 3rd against reactor hellions) and banes, to hold what comes and than go for a lower muta count. After that, keep him pinned, until im maxed on lings/banes and try to bust and/or keep him busy, while i expand and tech up towards hive. It just doesnt feel "right", when i go for mutas and than go for an infestation pit, because i couldve gone for it straight anyways. I almost feel obligated to bust him and try to break through, skip on upgrades and play very "all-inny", as far as someone can say that about 3 to 4 base play. As i read your guide, i suppose this feeling is just wrong, cause it seems that its quite possible to tech up behind mutas, as long as you keep your flock together and dont spend too much gas on them. But where do you squeeze in your ground upgrades (beside +1 carapace), since when you want to go for hive play, you prolly cant skip on upgrades, as long as you dont want to bust him in the mid, am i right ?! On a sidenote: What do you think about flyer upgrades regarding mutas, not broodlords ? And when do you take gas 5+6 ? Didnt found anything regarding these topics in your guide or im just 2 stupid/blind to find the right section. hopefully you get my thoughts, since english isnt my native language ! thx in advance, keep up the good work ! greetz joeyB Well I leave up how to play mutas, up to you. This guide just talks about how the game is played by everyone at the higher levels, it doesn't necessarily give everything away. I try to go as in-depth as I can though. As long as you aren't unnecessarily losing mutas too much, you should be fine. Once you reach whatever muta count you desire (10, or 25, or just somewhere like 15), you tech up. You should of course, always be expanding, so by now you are on at least 4-5 bases. Since you are not building any more mutas, all that gas goes purely into teching up. You still can't lose your mutas though, because while teching to hive tech units, you are still vulnerable, so you need to keep your muta count intact. If you ever lose too many mutas, terran will just push out. Once your BL or ultra tech is out, you just slowly bleed supply away, maybe sending in some lings to try to snipe a tank, or lose a couple mutas sniping well worthy research buildlings. Dont lose so many mutas that you force T to move out (you want to be the aggressor, and with a pure bl army or ultra army, not to be defensive). If you lose mutas, you are forced to remake them because then terran can push out and win the battle, so you have a problem here where instead of teching up, you are remaking mutas. So you need to be careful with them still. I generally get infestation pit and 2nd evo when I have my 4th taken, or about 20 mutas. For muta upgrades, I generally go for carapace because it's better for broodlords, as well as for marine vs muta. Like DRG, I try to engage small groups of marines when I know I can beat them with minimal losses, and try to use micro in a way to engage them wall (ball up so he can't kill the mutas). Just check out the replay section. I'll try to find more vods of muta play as well. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Terran all ins (besides gasless mass rax) are generally very frail, and take a long time to come out, so as long as you can rule out gasless mass rax (factory or reactor or tech lab at the wall-in, him ever taking gas if you can possibly see it, an expansion made possibly), you are basically safe to power to 40 supply and then start asking questions about 1 base play. At 40 supply is when expansion builds tend to exactly throw down weird stuff too (FE into banshees, FE into some sort of timing stim drop, bfh) as well. And marines can't really deny scouting either - the presence of marines themselves gives a lot away. Back a long time ago, it was confusing because everyone all-inned, everything was OP at the time, and no one made hellions except for all-ins and they made them really late anyways so even if they went hellions they still made lots of marines. Thors because of auto repair target priority and roach ranged was 3, although you can hold thors easily without roaches, it definitely limited your options, roaches vs hellions because of queen range and roach range, spore re-root time sucking so you needed at least 2 spores for a single banshee, stim coming wayyyy quicker, siege tanks doing massive damage to all armor types, lost temple's cliff by the natural - omg just watch some of nestea vs MKP finals on ST, it was obviously broken as hell. A lot of problems were also solved by the metagame. Back then, we literally saw zergs go 14/14 in ZvT because people thought 2 rax 'autowon' against hatch first, but now we know hatch first is the safest opener against it, and keep mining gas and get lair with the next100 at about 28 supply because... i dont know why. We were all just stupid back then. I guess with 3 range roaches, stim coming so fast meaning you NEEDED bane speed asap, and all the cliff/air abuse crap meaning only mutas could deal with it, there wasn't any choice but to rush lair. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
On June 02 2012 07:56 Belial88 wrote: Don't be too worried about him not floating down an expo - yes, it maybe built, but quite simply, he's not mining from another base, so you making a baneling nest and evo and even spores and a couple of precautionary lings, you will be ahead economically because you are actually mining from 2 bases. Terran all ins (besides gasless mass rax) are generally very frail, and take a long time to come out, so as long as you can rule out gasless mass rax (factory or reactor or tech lab at the wall-in, him ever taking gas if you can possibly see it, an expansion made possibly), you are basically safe to power to 40 supply and then start asking questions about 1 base play. At 40 supply is when expansion builds tend to exactly throw down weird stuff too (FE into banshees, FE into some sort of timing stim drop, bfh) as well. And marines can't really deny scouting either - the presence of marines themselves gives a lot away. Back a long time ago, it was confusing because everyone all-inned, everything was OP at the time, and no one made hellions except for all-ins and they made them really late anyways so even if they went hellions they still made lots of marines. Thors because of auto repair target priority and roach ranged was 3, although you can hold thors easily without roaches, it definitely limited your options, roaches vs hellions because of queen range and roach range, spore re-root time sucking so you needed at least 2 spores for a single banshee, stim coming wayyyy quicker, siege tanks doing massive damage to all armor types, lost temple's cliff by the natural - omg just watch some of nestea vs MKP finals on ST, it was obviously broken as hell. A lot of problems were also solved by the metagame. Back then, we literally saw zergs go 14/14 in ZvT because people thought 2 rax 'autowon' against hatch first, but now we know hatch first is the safest opener against it, and keep mining gas and get lair with the next100 at about 28 supply because... i dont know why. We were all just stupid back then. I guess with 3 range roaches, stim coming so fast meaning you NEEDED bane speed asap, and all the cliff/air abuse crap meaning only mutas could deal with it, there wasn't any choice but to rush lair. Ive never been very good always plat/diamond level and looking back to beta its amazing that terran ever dropped a game, the original siege tank damage thorship and all the cheese that was made possible by rax before depot was insane, i remember just having those pulling hair out of my head moments on all the stupid all ins that i took on awful maps like steppes, close position metal. its insane how far the game has come since then with the map pool, balance changes and players improving pushing the metagame, Z has a lot to be happy about so i will continue to learn and figure this all out | ||
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TiDragOnflY
Netherlands130 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
I'm having a lot of troubles against terrans doing fast triple CC. They got so huge macro that i can't win. Its like a macro-cheese. I would like to punish them with a violet push, but i dont see how i could be sure its a fast third, and that a violet push will win. And i dont like to all in blindly. Currently, i'm doing the DRG opener, with 7 roach push when i'm at 28 supply. But i never do all in behind this push, cause just dont know what if the terran doing. Transionning on tanks ? Building a third CC ? Maybe i should just sack an overlord, but what would be the timing ? Thanks for your guide ! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
A great way to punish fast third, is the recent roach/bane all-in that we see symbol do a lot of, and a lot of others zergs doing. Drg, et cetera. It's in the thread and all-in section. Sac your overlord a little earlier at 30s, and hopefully you see the fast third if they did so. Otherwise, as I say in the guide, punish it with either lots of aggression after getting your 3 base (or just 2 even, like ling/bane/muta and dont take your third, but make a macro hatch instead, or just take the third but dont drone it up, just use for production), or tech up quickly (make only 8-12 mutas, or just go infestor style). There will be a strong ~160+ supply push from Terran off 3 base, so you can also just plan to meet it head on with superior posturing. If you have good creep spread, you can get a really good engagement (think of zerg units as balanced around having no creep around). If you are doing the DRG opener, just make more speedlings if your pressure is doing good, or drone up if it isn't. Your pressure is your scouting o_o He can't exactly start making tanks when your roaches are already in his base. You seem a little too worried about what terran is doing. Don't worry so much, terran units are really fragile, you really don't need to know what they are doing. Seeing Terran's expansion is generally very easy, they will have it on the low ground, a bunker, and if they don't it's clearly suspicious and you will make the decisions at 40 supply to get evo/bane nest, but once you know he expanded, just take your third ~40, and make a bane nest/evo at ~50, maybe even 2 spores and a few banes. use your overseer to decide if you can drone up hardcore or not. If he makes hellions, he's likely not doing a marine/marauder off 2 base so you can probably completely drone up your 3 bases, if he made hellions after FE he could be going banshees so get ready for that (the recent bomber style FE reactor hellion into banshee into fast third opener thats really, really popular), if you cant tell whats going on, he could be dropping you so get like 4 banes at 50+ supply. It's being super greedy, that can be hard to really figure out, but you shouldn't worry about that unless your really high level and know what you are doing. It's not that big of an economic hit to have to make an evo and baneling nest at 40, or 2 spores. But yea, it's obvious choices if they go fast third: 1. Tech quicker 2. Aggression with ling/bane/muta by making units instead of drones for your third 3. roach/bane all-in if your lucky enough to see a fast third with your overlord. | ||
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Roarer
Hong Kong124 Posts
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wigacetamol
Australia1 Post
was just wondering if you could also put timings as part of the guideThanks | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
How does a zerg know the terran is doing fast 3rd ? Scouting at 6:00 doesnt give enought informations, right ? | ||
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