EPT[G] Belial’s Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT! - Page 2
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Seala
Sweden118 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Everything I've been looking for! An awesome, comprehensive guide to zvt. Thanks heaps! Thanks a lot for this man, your guides are always really in-depth and helpful, been looking for some help with ZvT for some time. Your guides are great Don't play Z thogh Excellent write-ups. Loved your comprehensive ZvP thread and have been eagerly awaiting the ZvT one. It does not dissapoint Awesome guide. Thanks for this. Let's see if I can get finally into Masters Yes! I've been waiting for your ZvT for a long time, after the awsomeness of your ZvP guide! I didn't read all of it yet but I already want to thank you for the time and the dedication that you put in all of your guides and posts in general. Keep up the good work, Belial, you're helping a ton of zerg players ;-) Really great guide! I wish a good protoss and terran would do guides like this one for the other matchups, it really helps understanding the matchups . Great work! Thanks Very nice guides i saw your name in my ladder division and i was going to ask if it really was you and i checked your sc2ranks profile you have and it WAS you! im ErrorBMC. I just wanted to thank you for the guides. Wow, thanks a lot Belial! I read the whole thing :D Yet another great guide! Great write up! :D I've been eagerly awaiting this since you mentioned it was in production. I don't have critiques to add because I suck, but this will certainly be helpful for me. Great work man. Finally a ZvT guide wich is not a strange build or outdated Thx for this great guide!!! My god... This guide is so good. I wish Terran players had as good a guide. I played d3 beta (got to max level with all chars) but that's it. I have no plans to get D3 - D2X was the best game ever made (better than brood war *gasp*), I loved it. That game WAS not only my middle school, but also my high school, and college (all of college, except first semester of freshmen year). I'm probably the biggest d2x guy here. What really made the game great though, was Hardcore mode, and all the imperfections - I loved how Blizzard still updated the game, but largely abandoned it, and that it became a haven of hax. It was these imperfections that made the game awesome in my opinion - from duping, allowing low level players to have a decent chance to actually play the full content of the game (solo'ing hell, dueling at a high level, dueling with twinks). What was my favorite part of D2XHC, was PKing. Yep, I'm a huge troll, I get it, but hardcore mode was amazing - it was Jerry Springer mixed with WoW. Despite the impression many complain about tppkers and pkers ruined the game for normal people, everyone who selected to play hardcore, knew exactly what they were getting in to (or found out in 20 minutes when they got killed and then never came back because they were a bitch). And everything about HC was amazing, from leveling up from 1 to 30 and seeing how many of your party would get pk'd by randoms who joined the game (maybe even helping those pkers yourself because that asshole barb stole your drop), to low level newbs trying to give each other dirty portals, to the HUGE dramas that happened when, say, BMPK clan infiltrated the largest US East HC clan, which was run by a total douchebag, who made his clan pay him basically and get HIM to level 99 first on each reset, pk'ed his character after befriending him for 3 months and then sold the ear on d2jsp (nirvana-). Another great memory is when some guy ran around pking level 10's with his lvl 80 amazon, that he clearly bought, and the gear, and he said he paid $200 for it and how awesome he was. He then accepted a duel from a level 26 necro - and the necro teleported right onto her, killed her immediately, and the shit talker was to never come back (obvoiusly, the necro was a twink run by someone who knew what they were doing). That was the great thing about D2XHC - no one was untouchable, if you ever left town, no matter how privately you played, even if you solo'd the game, you COULD be killed if someone wanted you dead. Which just made the game so damn exciting - both that you could kill any little punk for shittalking if you tried hard enough (sneak into a game of someone who is in his clan by bribing them, et cetera), and that people may be out there trying to kill you, and you could never tell if the person who came in, whom you've never heard of, was some type of anti-pker. The community was so small when I played that everyone knew everyone above level 80. HC was amazing, so I'm sad to see that the new HC mode in D3 has no ability to duel, much less pk. Dueling should always be allowed, and I was upset about the new arena mode as well. They are just making the game WoW, and that really bums me out. D2 is all about you, yourself - unlike WoW, which is a team effort. To make the dueling arena mode is just soooo stupid and against what diablo is all about - you are the lone hero who makes it to hell. So no. I don't plan to buy D3 at the moment. I'm sure it's worth $60, but I enjoy starcraft more than enough for now, and I'm sure I'll play it for at least the next 5 years. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Edit: The overall guide was top notch, especially the third timings for the Terran and Zerg. However I have to inject with the Ultralisk part. Ultralisks are great IF you know how to use them and if you let your Terran opponent not build up a huge Medivac count. When I play an infestor style, I almost always plan on going for a faster hive and Ultralisk den. During the midgame I have a heavy focus on sniping Medivacs with Sporecrawlers and Infestors. If you can keep him from getting a large Medivac cloud you will have a much easier time playing an Ultralisk-style. Combining Ultralisks with speedbanes is a MUST. You need the instant-AoE the baneling explosions provide to deal with Marauders being split up into individual pockets with Medivac support because the Ultras just won't get enough damage off fast enough to deal with a well microed MMM ball. Infestor/Ultra won't cut it because the fungals just don't do damage fast enough and a good Terran will have spread his forces out before being engaged. The fungals only serve to pin the MM down for the Banelings to close in. Then, when most of the force is evaporated and your Ultralisks still stand and you can counter attack a base, you will have executed a good Ultralisk strategy. Maybe I can add someone about how big of a pain medivacs are to ultras? As for AoE, I see most zergs skimp on banes when going ultras, so they can get more infestors, ultras, upgrades, and continue towards broodlords. I'll recheck the games I've looked at though. Edit* Request an addition against the 1/1/1 build for us n00bies. Didn't see it listed on the 1-base all-ins T can do. Well... no. There's a few reasons. 1. Terran doesn't really do a 1/1/1 against Zerg. It just doesn't work like it does against protoss. The reason is because zerg always expands, so the reason it's so effective against Toss (MULEs and better 1 base economy vs Toss 1 base) isn't really there anymore. Terran units are quite frail, especially in small numbers, and with zerg having 2 hatch 2 queen, they can easily overpower the Terran's production. You never see 1/1/1 in higher level play, because it doesn't work, because of good macro. If you are losing to 1/1/1, that is completely a problem of your macro. Work on improving your macro - as I state in the guide, as long as Terran gets gas, there is no all-in they can do that can't be easily held if you completely drone up to 40, THEN react (except gasless 4-7 rax all-in, which I specify). 2. A 1/1/1 is really just 2 different attacks, and stages in the game, that you, as a zerg, have 2 different opportunities to either fall behind or get ahead. The first, is just banshees. So you scout Terran still hasn't quite expanded yet (if you drone scouted, maybe you saw his gas timings, but we can't rely on that due to depot block, but if you are low level, you should definitely drone scout) at 30 supply, you need to sac an overlord. Terran cannot hide an expansion, it's too big, and it's generally always near the natural or next to his CC, so knowing Terran didn't expand and is 1 basing, you can deduce it's banshees immediately when you see there isn't a ton of buildings in his base (no mass rax) and no hellions (marines = no hellions). Things like seeing double gas, 5 marines, a rax at the wall-in, are also huge hints to a banshee opener. So after 40 supply, you need to throw down that evo chamber, and get 4 queens total. That's how you hold banshees, as I state in the guide. Quite easy. So now you are ahead, or behind, based on how you handled the banshee. Then, Terran still doesn't expand. You know this because you kept an overlord by his natural, and a ling in front of his base (maybe you could only get 1 overlord safely to his base on this map, like Cloud Kingdom, that's okay - the ling tells you what you need to know). By 9:00 Terran needs to put his expo on the low ground, no matter how late he took it, and even if he didn't, just prepare for a 1 base play all the same, as Terran is behind for not floating down his natural. So you held the banshees off, and you droned hard against it, because units are worthless against air so you were hopefully pumping drones, just like you should vs stargate in zvp, and mutas in zvz. Well, you hit 50+ supply. As I state in my guide, at 50+ supply, you need to get either double evo, or a baneling nest+evo, unless you know for certain that you can be greedier. With a 50+ supply 1/1 or 0/1 baneling nest, you will EASILY crush Terran's push with lings made reactively. Maybe you took your third, maybe you didn't because you realized Terran still hasn't expanded. Whatever. As soon as Terran pushes out of his base, you morph the handful of lings you made after 50 supply, into banelings, and pump lings. You may need to pull your queens, maybe it will be tight, but you should easily hold it. Not to mention that it should be obvious that Terran still hasn't expanded, is clearly going to follow-up with a 1 base all-in, and you pumped units. 1/1/1 is extremely easy to hold as Zerg - it's just a banshee opener that you need to scout. Against early game terran, zerg units are really good. Terran NEEDS support for ALL of their units - medivac+marine, maruader+marine, hellion+tank, marine+tank. On their own, each unit sucks. Because of the way terran production works, there is just NO way for terran to ever get a lot of units out - knowing this, it should really, really clue you off when you see no expo around 5:30 with your ~30 overlord sac. So you see Terran didn't expand. Well, you sac an overlord. If he has more than 2, maybe 3, marines, then you should prepare for possible hellions. Roaches are great against hellions, but speedlings against initial smaller numbers of hellions, queens, and even banelings, are all amazing against hellions in the early game. Same with marines. What beats no-stim+medivac marines? Speedlings. Funny, speedlings can beat hellions in very early game too. What if Terran has at least 3+ marines, meaning he obviously isn't going hellions (3+ marines will deny an overlord, 1-2 marines won't)? Maybe you are unsure of what Terran is doing. Most likely, he's going banshees, but he could be going BC, thor, anything. What handles all of this? 4 queens, lings and banelings! If Terran clearly hasn't expanded by about 40+ supply, and marines deny your overlord, and it's a rax at the wall-in - get a baneling nest, get an evo and eventually 1 spore per mineral line, and get 4 queens. Make some speedlings. You will easily hold whatever Terran is doing - all you want to do, is just try to be greedier, but really, a 40+ baneling nest, evo, and 4 queens will stop any all-in pretty cold. Even if he's going nukes? Transfuse everything, manually detonate banelings where that shimmer is. Easy. So yea. 1/1/1 is not viable against Zerg, if you are struggling against it, learn how to deal with the banshee opener better, and then just macro better. That's all. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Just curious, are you the same Belial that complained no maps were z favored and the best zerg maps were the ones that zerg was least screwed on? Back when the map pool was Backwater Gulch, Typhon Peaks, Backwater Gulch XNC... yes. There were definitely no zerg favored maps, and the best maps were ones zerg was least screwed on (nerazim crypt, backwater gulch, typhon peaks, close spawns?). Remember Slag Pits? The maps were horrible back then. None of those maps were good for Zerg. Even shakuras plateau today is known as horribly imbalanced ZvT since Terran just takes a third eventually with siege tanks (or even quicker), then splits the map in half and easily wins in a split map scenario. We STILL have close spawns on Antiga Shipyard and Entombed Valley. This season, is truly the first season where Zerg can play a map pool that isn't completely broken. You can veto Antiga and Entombed (which are actually half decent maps when it's cross spawn, although it's still T/P favored maps in cross spawn, but it's at least playable - not balanced, just playable), and that leaves you a free veto choice, in either Shakuras (which is actually quite good in ZvZ and ZvP, and in most games will be fine ZvT, just don't let it get to lategame without a significant advantage), or TDA ('balanced', but completely broken in that you can't even play standard ZvP vs FFE because if you take a fast third, you autolose to a tech oriented gateway all-in like blink or immortal/sentry due to distance of bases or killing your econ to break rocks and be forced to do a semi-all-innish 2 base play like mutas and hope P doesn't build order counter it or scout and prepare, which you can't deny because he knows you can't 3 base on that map, and ZvT sucks with the ledge and impossibly hard 4+ bases, and ZvZ is lame because you can't go hatch first due to unable to block the ramp, and you can't take fast third so it's all 2 base play). Now, we have enjoyable Zerg maps for the FIRST time - Daybreak, Metalopolis without close spawn (this is one map that has been zerg favored for a while ever since they removed close spawn, and is actually imbalanced in favor of Zerg in ZvP because Zerg just takes the gold vs FFE), Korhal (slightly T favored in ZvT, but is still, imo, a fun map despite being Terran favored, and somewhat favored in ZvP at different stages of the game for different races and styles but as a whole, balanced for both sides), Ohana. This season we still have some bad maps though - Shakuras ZvT (like I said, most games don't go that late anyways so just hope terran is dumb enough to be aggresive in the early game instead of take a fast third and force a macro game), TDA, close spawn antiga/entombed, and cloud kingdom (protoss stomping ground, hell for scouting and dealing with pushes in zvt). Just my take on it, maybe other races would not agree completely with that analysis, but I'm sure Zergs would. I've heard Terrans say they veto maps based on the colors, but with the rate of the map pool changes, Zerg may one day have that luxury of vetoing out of preference rather than necessity. I'm in the personal belief that the "quicker lair" style, ie. the 2base muta style, normally shouldn't take a quick third without a macrohatch regardless of whether terran reactor hellion expanded or 1rax expanded. The typical hatch pool 15-17gas into fast lair 4gas 1evo 8muta style, shouldn't be able to hold a third on most current map pools at the proposed ~40 supply timing without a macro hatch. It needs 4hatch production to hold off any midgame aggression, and there isn't many reasons I can think of - other than terran triple OC'ing - to take a natthird before a macrohatch in a standard nonmetagamed game. Considering that you are forced to float 500 minerals at this timing, its tempting to grab a third, but I have rarely seen that third being held on maps like metropolis, entombed and ohana, and still risky as hell on maps like daybreak and korhal. In the build order section, I simply say 3rd hatch and 4th hatch, not bases or macro hatch. However, with the recent buff of the queen, maps where the third is in reasonable distance, and disfavor of reactor hellion, it's definitely possible to take that third as your 3rd hatch. Also, I actually personally prefer taking the third and going later lair with mutas. Even with muta play, we are seeing pros go later, later, and later with their mutas - there is no particular timing to hit with the mutas, they are just a strong unit for the entirety of mid-game, and pros clearly prefer to make drones and have later mutas, rather than sacrifice economy and third timing just for the chance to maybe kill a couple SCVs, which won't work against a prepared Terran, and is unlikely to make up for the damage you did to yourself compared to just having droned up 3 bases. But as the guide shows, it's entirely up to you. I state in the build order that you simply need another hatchery at ~40 supply, it's up to you whether to take it as a third, or make it an in-base macro-hatch. I also state in the section about how to deal with Terran pressures, that if Terran goes reactor hellion, it is unlikely you can take your third unless you can get creep their in time (or use roaches, which is unlikely if you plan to go mutas). With some of the new maps, it's definitely possible to get creep their in time so you can use just 4 queens to take your third against reactor hellion, and many Terrans don't go reactor hellion anymore, so it's only correct that you capitalize on this by taking a quicker third. Even if you plan to go 2 base muta, you should definitely react to what Terran is doing. If they do a FE build, I would strongly recommend you take your third over a macro hatch, instead of just saying "nope, Im going 2 base muta and I'm sticking to it!" You need to react to what Terran is doing, and if you don't, you'll fall behind economically (going 2 base macro hatch lair vs fast third? you'll have an extremely hard time against the 3 base push). So it's up to you, the guide just sets the standards, and leaves much up to you. You can definitely go 2 base macro hatch lair, even against FE-Fast Third builds. For example, 2 base macro hatch lair muta into third builds, can put a TON of aggression on fast third terrans when about 15+ mutas pop - you can often just kill the Terran with the aggression. And you CAN hold the third against aggression, by the way. There is no difference between making that hatchery in-base, or at your third and walking a queen over there, in terms of production, You can see in the build order section, that I state that you NEED to make 4 hatches total, regardless of whether you take your third first or second. Production is the same either way, but income is what is different. Now the only reason you can't take a third in ZvT, is: 1. Reactor Hellion (against FE into single reactor Hellions, queens and speedlings will be able to deal with them, and you can get the third before more than 2 arrive. 2. 1 base all-ins. What is questionable, is if you can drone the third up. Against a strong, dedicated, 2 base all-in marine/marauder, yes, you can't drone at all. You can definitely hold the third. If you can provide replays showing zergs losing their third, please PM me - at the same time, I'll look for some games where Zerg holds the third against a 2 base all-in. Production is the same whether you take a third or macro hatch. The only reason people made in-base hatch instead of third for forever, was because of reactor hellion. You still can't usually take your third against reactor hellion, which I state in the guide. I've been eagerly awaiting this since you mentioned it was in production. I don't have critiques to add because I suck, but this will certainly be helpful for me. Great work man. Please, feel free to critique. You are welcome to PM me if you second guess yourself. I'm not good by any means, I'm only 800-900 some points masters. This guide is not about proposing anything new, it's simply a resource for people who may be lost on the general direction of ZvT. Of course, it's my guide, but I make sure to state all things that are my opinion, style, or preference, as exactly that, and not the standard. Finally a ZvT guide wich is not a strange build or outdated Thx for this great guide!!! I know right. The reason I write these is because of how many dopes write shit guides, and then say "oh you are so welcome" when just as ridiculous people say how good the guide is. This is a motherfuckng guide, not those other pieces of crap. This is how it's done. And yea, too many crap guides about how to all-in. How about a guide on how to actually play, right? These guides generally carry on about how to play an actual, good game (if you want to all-in, there's nothing stopping you from just going "mass units when the wind blows at this particular time". Not unique at all. | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
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zasta
United Kingdom99 Posts
 was completely under represented in the strategy section, partly due to us being a reactive race but also partly because people tend to just wing it. Your six pool guide made it so I'm praying for my opponent to cheese me. Having these kind of resources is good when you're feeling in a rut with your play.I think as zergs we need to expand our approach to mech though. I'm sure there are styles that haven't come out yet because people just don't play mech regularly enough, but the whole mass roach thing feels horrible to me. Also there are actually quite a few mech variations I've seen: Hellion Tank, Hellion Thor, Hellion Banshee Viking Raven, Hellion Marauder Thor (well kinda mech), any of these +/- ghosts. Also particularly once you get to a split map situation the terrans seem to be more and more willing to bring out the battlecruisers of late, although maybe that's just the caliber of players I'm against. Cheers! | ||
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EndOfLineTv
United States741 Posts
On May 25 2012 18:57 Chaosvuistje wrote: I have been waiting for this for quite some time. I'm going to gobble it all up and write my thoughts down later  Edit: The overall guide was top notch, especially the third timings for the Terran and Zerg. However I have to inject with the Ultralisk part. Ultralisks are great IF you know how to use them and if you let your Terran opponent not build up a huge Medivac count. When I play an infestor style, I almost always plan on going for a faster hive and Ultralisk den. During the midgame I have a heavy focus on sniping Medivacs with Sporecrawlers and Infestors. If you can keep him from getting a large Medivac cloud you will have a much easier time playing an Ultralisk-style. Combining Ultralisks with speedbanes is a MUST. You need the instant-AoE the baneling explosions provide to deal with Marauders being split up into individual pockets with Medivac support because the Ultras just won't get enough damage off fast enough to deal with a well microed MMM ball. Infestor/Ultra won't cut it because the fungals just don't do damage fast enough and a good Terran will have spread his forces out before being engaged. The fungals only serve to pin the MM down for the Banelings to close in. Then, when most of the force is evaporated and your Ultralisks still stand and you can counter attack a base, you will have executed a good Ultralisk strategy. What Chaosvuistje said! (lol STOP copying me bro) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
What exactly do you mean with 2x Queens? Do you mean 2 additional Queens so you have 4 in total. Or do you count 2 extra queens to "necessary defense"? 2 queens, as in 2 queens total. The part that says "necessary defense" means whatever you want to defend against things like reactor hellion or whatever - generally, this means anything from 1 spine, 1 queen. The build is made in such a way that every single pro follows it. Everyone does something different though, but we all get 2 queens at least. Some people get 3 queens total and a spine, or 2 queens 2 spines, or 2 queens and some lings, or 4 queens, whatever. think as zergs we need to expand our approach to mech though. I'm sure there are styles that haven't come out yet because people just don't play mech regularly enough, but the whole mass roach thing feels horrible to me. Also there are actually quite a few mech variations I've seen: Hellion Tank, Hellion Thor, Hellion Banshee Viking Raven, Hellion Marauder Thor (well kinda mech), any of these +/- ghosts. There are plenty of things you can do against mech. This guide just says the basics - either use roach aggression, or tech up. It doesn't go in to detail saying things like, roach drops, multi-pronged attacks, using burrow move, roach/infestor aggression, roach/hydra (i know, but someone said it worked good i think). There really isn't much difference between the mech variations that you specify. You just need to handle the hellion harass, and hellion/tank is a little different than hellion/thor, but the end result is the same. If someone is adding in tech like banshees, ravens, it leaves them more vulnerable to aggression earlier in the game, but a stronger army later in the game. And I don't think anyone feels that roaches into bl/infestor is particularly lacking in any way against mech. I'm not sure what the pros feel about it, but mech doesn't seem too successful anymore against zerg. Thanks endofline. | ||
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pedromundo
Brazil8 Posts
PS: Update the link on the ZvP guide, I tried to find this guide from my bookmark on that one and failed epicly ): | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I dislike Tang's guides (don't get me wrong - he gives great advice, and his posts are good) because they emphasize, what I feel, is bad play. He just talks about all-inning, and some of his guides I feel don't offer anything new (like the guide linked, it's just mass speedlings after expanding, and if that doesn't work, make roaches). I also don't agree with his philosophy, such as the philosophy in the zvz guide about how aggression is so great in zvz (i disagree, it's a macro match-up - I'd say easily the majority of my zvz games get to 3 bases). So I write guides like this on standard, solid play. This guide really isn't that great, it doesn't offer anything most people at higher level don't already know. But it shocks me that there isn't any very basic, simply, straightforward guides on how to play the match-ups. I'll write a ZvZ guide soon (i actually punched one up a few months ago, never posted it because didn't complete it, and by now I'm pretty sure it's just wrong due to metagame shifts), but there are still some things I still don't fully understand about the match-up. It was only a few months ago when everyone was saying that ling/bane/muta is the superior unit composition, and that any zerg who doesn't go mutas is stupid. | ||
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astraZerg
United States1 Post
The tip about patrolling banes to defend against drops is going to help me out a lot I can already tell. You also mention just spines as static defense against drops which begs the question: do you never build spores? Even a couple well placed ones? I just ask because my humble observation has been that T can usually be cost-effective with even drops that don't go well as long as he saves the medivacs. My question is how high of a priority would rate targeting down the medivacs from drops with either queens, infestors, or a handful of mutas? | ||
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XxJuicexX
United States48 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Clearly, 14/15 is superior to 16/15 by 100 minerals. I also heard somewhere that 15/15 was behind 14/15 by 50 minerals (i cant find where that was said though). That thread was made a while ago though (he says "I know from my own experience that it is very rare to want to take a third hatchery before the 6 minute mark in an actual game" when you see it as the standard in zvp now, it's standard to take a third just after 6:00 now in zvz, and it's arguably the standard in zvt, if not becoming it). So I'm actually going to test it out myself just to make sure. Either way, it doesn't matter. I'm well aware none of the koreans go 14 hatch (then again, they only stopped going extractor trick half a year ago, and half of them still do), and I don't say in the guide you have to go 14 hatch. I simply said I go 14 hatch, and it's my belief that 14 hatch is better because of that thread 'proving' 14 hatch as the best (i suppose this takes faith that this thread is valid, the OP is banned now, but you can see he did a lot of testing, as did others, in that large thread). My guide simply says hatch first. It's up to you if you want to do 15, 14, or any other hatch first, really. As for 15 hatch getting you 1 more drone than 14 hatch.... no that's not really true... i mean 6 pool gets the same number of drones as hatch first. The real question is how many minerals you mine by X time (since many of the 'suboptimal' builds are way ahead of 'better' builds for a long time, even 11pool/18 hatch is ahead for a while of 'optimal' openings for the first 4 minutes). The tip about patrolling banes to defend against drops is going to help me out a lot I can already tell. You also mention just spines as static defense against drops which begs the question: do you never build spores? Even a couple well placed ones? I just ask because my humble observation has been that T can usually be cost-effective with even drops that don't go well as long as he saves the medivacs. My question is how high of a priority would rate targeting down the medivacs from drops with either queens, infestors, or a handful of mutas? I never build spores. I know others do, but to me it just seems Terran can just move around them, and if he drops in front of either a spine or spore, he's screwed, but if he drops to the side, a spore is useless while a spine is still just as strong. This also has to do with players going muta vs infestor. Personally, I always go muta in ZvT - if you don't have mutas, and are going infestors, you may need spores (especially in conjunction with FG). Terran does get to keep his medivacs (eventually I have no mutas as I transition to bl/infestor, obviously), but he could keep them if he stays away from spores anyways. It just doesnt seem consistent enough. I'll edit the guide to say something like "Static defense" instead of spines, because much better players than myself use spores, and don't always go mutas though. I personally don't feel spores are useful, but this thread isn't the place for me to say what I personally believe, it's more about explaining the standard way ZvT is played and it's up to you to do what you want stylistically. As for targetting medivacs, I've tested it in Unit Tester. It depends, really. In a straightforward fight, you should never target medivacs with your mutas. Just a-move. However, you don't want to lose mutas to fighting marines in a drop - if you have 20 mutas vs 16 marines from a doubledrop, you will lose a muta or few if you fight straight up. What is recommended, in a real game, is to actually snipe the medivacs with your mutas, then run away and clean up with your ground army. Sometimes, you can't do this though - your ground army may be preoccupied, or too far away, or terran unloaded his medivac on a cliff. But if you can do it, it's better to snipe the medivacs and run away, and let your ground army clean up. If you can't do that, just a-move, and don't target the medivacs, or you'll sustain more losses. Queens should always target medivacs/warp prisms. Always. They are the only AA you have (unless you have mutas of course) that doesn't cost you (don't want to waste FG killing medivacs unless you can get a lot of them). You'll commonly hear casters say how terrible a zerg is for not targetting medivacs or prisms. Take Suhosin vs Vines (the 2nd time they fight) GSL S3 Group C Set 11 http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67539/?set=11&lang= Suhosin does not target the warp prism that was micro'ing immortals and warping in units, and you can hear the casters just exclaim how much of a retard he is, and really, that was like a diamond level mistake of him to not target the dropship, especially in a battle that goes on for like 60 seconds and was just a small skirmish, not a large scale battle where there was maybe too much going on for someone to notice. Infestors... eh, it's up to you. Not really worth wasting FG on a single medivac unless you have lots of infestors with energy and you aren't attacking/defending anytime soon, it's just about energy management, and if you do want to kill the medivacs with infestors, throw down a few IT's first and then FG when they hatch (so you FG as little as possible and save as much energy as possible) or only FG mass medivac groups. | ||
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flanksteak
Canada246 Posts
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niladorus
Greece116 Posts
sidenote:another way to time your lair is purely on gas (cause the way i see it is that you should have x amount of gas at t time of the matchup) and if you have less you either screwed up or you needed to spend it (e.g. roaches) | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
Stephano Sheth Violet | ||
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XxJuicexX
United States48 Posts
14h/16p ------------- Total workers = 38 Total resource collected = 3,350 Collection rate = 630 15h/16p ------------- Total workers = 38 Total resource collected = 3,350 Collection rate = 637 | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
very nice text ^_^ sidenote:another way to time your lair is purely on gas (cause the way i see it is that you should have x amount of gas at t time of the matchup) and if you have less you either screwed up or you needed to spend it (e.g. roaches) Of course. At such timings, you should roughly be at the supplies listed. I could have used X:XX time as well, or drone counts, but I think supply count is the easiest to go by. I imagine it's what most people go by. I sometimes I use time for benchmarks as well. It really depends. In ZvP, for example, I use time instead of supply because Toss doesn't care what supply you get gas at, if you don't have speed or roaches by a certain point, you lose. The timings aren't as harsh in most scenarios though. I have a very different approach to ZvT, but I enjoyed reading this guide. I also have some replays of Roach/Ling/Baneling all-ins for you: Thanks. I would hope this guide lays down what is 'standard', and anything other than what I listed isn't standard. I also hope all of the all-ins out there, or at least the most standard ones, are listed as well. Thanks for the reps, I'll add. Juice - what is collection rate? At what time did you stop? How did you test it? I spent like 2 hours in YABOT and I couldn't really figure out which was better at all. But generally, a lot of 'inferior' builds will be ahead up until the 6:00 mark, at which point superior builds will just fly past. So you have to test it to at least 7:00, which is past 40 supply. Going to edit the scouting section. You need to send that overlord in at 40 supply if the opponent FE'd, sending it at 30 is too early if they FE. The basic idea with scouting is just: 1. Make sure there isn't a naked rax where you can't tell if they Fast Expanded or took gas (ie lings see a naked rax), as it could be a 4-7 rax all-in and in which case you need to send that overlord in at 25. If no naked rax where you can't tell if they FE'd (FE builds will generally have an building by 20 supply, or you can tell when lings arrive, so it's just them hiding it, and hey you just make 2 spines and your good and arent too behind if they went FE since they didnt land it) 2. As long as they didn't FE, send in overlord at 30 (so it is like there in there base at 35, 40) 3. If they did FE, send it in at 40. | ||
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hagga
Sweden219 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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