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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
15 hatch 17 pool 2x queen 2x queen at 30 34 overlord 34 drone 35 3rd 1x queen 2x gas at 38 Overlord sac at 6 I think mine is a little bit greedier but I am never punished for it. The hatch goes down about 40 seconds sooner so hellion banshee can never stop my 3rd. Even reactor hellion expand banshee won't kill it. Thoughts? | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
What the hell do I do against this, and how should I respond to mech while doing this build? If I scout mech, should I throw down roach warren, start getting range upgrades and consider the melee upgrade a loss? Or do I take bases, and rush to broodlords? I feel like groups of BFH and banshees are so effective in denying 4th or higher bases, especially at maps like shakuras. I would love some advice! | ||
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SCInfestor
United States61 Posts
On September 22 2012 23:17 TyrionSC2 wrote: My timings are slightly different. I'm 1100 master. 15 hatch 17 pool 2x queen 2x queen at 30 34 overlord 34 drone 35 3rd 1x queen 2x gas at 38 Overlord sac at 6 I think mine is a little bit greedier but I am never punished for it. The hatch goes down about 40 seconds sooner so hellion banshee can never stop my 3rd. Even reactor hellion expand banshee won't kill it. Thoughts? You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On September 29 2012 00:44 SCInfestor wrote: You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious. In general, you want to be able to deal with 11/11 rush/cheese with just drones, so 17 pool is fine. You may have to pull all your drones, but as it's an all-in as long as you micro your drones properly it's not too bad. In general, ignore the non-bunker-building scv's and go after the marines, and try to pull the weak drones back. | ||
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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
On September 29 2012 00:44 SCInfestor wrote: You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious. 17 pool is safe against most rushes. The only time that it can get scary is against 11 11. And I scout in order to see that. If they do a bunker I just pull a few drones and am fine. Saccing at 6 means you don't see stuff until 6:15-6:30. This means the starport will just start cloak/banshee, or you will see if the command center is already finished (means 1rax 2cc), or if a pressure is coming. If you go at 7 you will not see the banshee until it is 1/2 complete. This can be bad. Also, if they do 2fact hellion you may be in trouble if you sac too late. My timings are about 30-45 seconds after belial's recommendation. I think any later is just not safe unless you are just doing a catch all opening. On September 29 2012 00:00 Henk wrote: With the 6 queen opening, I feel like I'm so very weak to mech. I'm starting 1/1, droning up, and I sac an overlord and see 2 factories, and blue flame is being researched. Then a bit later 8 BFH start roasting everything I have, because I don't have speed yet, and no roaches out. Walling off on maps like shakuras is so hard, you need like a dozen buildings. What the hell do I do against this, and how should I respond to mech while doing this build? If I scout mech, should I throw down roach warren, start getting range upgrades and consider the melee upgrade a loss? Or do I take bases, and rush to broodlords? I feel like groups of BFH and banshees are so effective in denying 4th or higher bases, especially at maps like shakuras. I would love some advice! First, I always cancel melee and get range and throw down a roach warren. Play defensive and don't drone your 3rd. Your evos should always form a choke into your nat, and you want a spine in between, that way you can block with a queen and be fine. You can defend your 3rd sending a few queens down there while roaches are making. You shouldn't really take any damage then. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Could you provide some (macro) benchmarks for this 6 queen play? When am I supposed to take my fourth? Even with a macro hatch and good injects I still struggle to get rid of my minerals. At what ingame time should I have my first broodlords morphing? Thanks alot for this great guide! You want to take your fourth as soon as possible, of course. This may mean when mutas/infestors are out, or it may mean earlier. Essentially, Terran should have landed his third by the time you'd go for your fourth, or his all-in off 2 base would have hit. You want to have broodlords morphing around 15:00. Hotkeying the spire, starting hive right when infestation pit is done, and getting gases on time and a fourth quick enough, are all huge factors in this. I think mine is a little bit greedier but I am never punished for it. The hatch goes down about 40 seconds sooner so hellion banshee can never stop my 3rd. Even reactor hellion expand banshee won't kill it. Thoughts? Even with a ~50 third, it'll be up in time for you to plant a spore to stop banshees. You can always walk a spine over to the third, and it's really not an issue since you won't have drones there immediately. With the 6 queen opening, I feel like I'm so very weak to mech. I'm starting 1/1, droning up, and I sac an overlord and see 2 factories, and blue flame is being researched. Then a bit later 8 BFH start roasting everything I have, because I don't have speed yet, and no roaches out. Walling off on maps like shakuras is so hard, you need like a dozen buildings. What the hell do I do against this, and how should I respond to mech while doing this build? If I scout mech, should I throw down roach warren, start getting range upgrades and consider the melee upgrade a loss? Or do I take bases, and rush to broodlords? I feel like groups of BFH and banshees are so effective in denying 4th or higher bases, especially at maps like shakuras. I would love some advice! You should have 2 evos, a spine, and 1-2 queens at hold position at your natural choke by 7:30, or around 40-50 supply. On certain maps I'll actually make a baneling nest if the choke is wide (Like ohana - just get it before speed. you can also just have a 2nd queen hold position or something like that). That means that the terran has only 1 place to go, which is your third, since your nat and main are walled off. And your third should have a spine started at 50 and 4 queens there (have the queen in the nat hold position at the choke and put her back after each inject, or just have another queen hold there if that takes too much apm for you). And that's at 7:30, when terran can only have 4 hellions running in. Something like bfh will only come out once you have 70+ drones, which should be pretty easy to deal with because now you hve 75 drones and can just pump lings. Check the reps I posted on 6 queen opener. Yes, it can be hard to wall-off on certain maps. Just like Toss, you should spend time on custom against easy AI and test out the best way to wall. Some zergs will make a wall where they use the natural hatch as part of the wall-off, and the single spine to ward-off the hellions, and with such a wall-off you can hold the ramp with just a single queen instead of 2, but imo the problem with that is he can just sit in your natural and at worst, fry drones, and at best, force you to lose mining time, so I prefer making a baneling nest before speed to wall-in earlier. You could also just make 3 evo chambers on certain maps. I won't even make roaches against such bfh or double fact hellion all-ins (from a 1 rax FE/cc first). You should have walled off the natural in time, and from there just 4 queens and 1-2 spines at the third will stop any mass hellion attack cold. All you need to worry about is 4 hellions at 7:30. If you proof yourself against that, you should be safe against any number of hellions. You've never been punished for doing a 17 pool? What do you do against bunker rushes or other early cheeses? And won't a sac at around the 7 mark reveal more without it being too late to react? Just curious. It'll be tighter but you can survive, since you are using drones to survive, not lings/queens. Lings/queens/spines just end the timing, but they aren't what stops it. I dont agree with pulling every drone against 11/11 though, you should just pull most of them. If terran just keeps micro'ing, he'll force you to lose too much mining time, his marine ball will get too big, and you lose. Just ime. Added a replay to the replay section on how to hold 1 base 3 rax all-in, with a 6 queen opener with fast third. | ||
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PETAVER
United States9 Posts
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jackslater
Russian Federation604 Posts
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framtidenskrig
Sweden92 Posts
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Berty
France5 Posts
THX Belial for this guide! But i juste have a question. I prefer muta/ling/ban style, so can i use this standard build with a transition to muta instead of infestor ? 9 Overlord 15 Hatchery 16 pool 17 Overlord @100%pool: Double Queen Drone drone drone 25 Overlord Drone drone drone @100%Queen: 3rd + 4th Queen Drone drone drone ~5:00 Double Gas Geyser @100 Gas: Zergling Speed ~6:20 3rd Base @100 Gas: Double evolution chamber @250 Gas: +1 Melee +1 Armor upgrades + 3rd + 4th Gas @100 Gas: Lair + Baneling nest + 5th Queen And then get Spire for mass mutalisk : @Lair: Baneling Speed + Spire + 4th Base This is viable ? isn't too late ? I dont will be too exposed to marine/tank push ? If it's not viable, someone can explain to me a standard build muta/gling/ban with fast third ? Thx for all | ||
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Ogww
Finland224 Posts
On September 29 2012 01:08 Defenestrator wrote: In general, you want to be able to deal with 11/11 rush/cheese with just drones, so 17 pool is fine. You may have to pull all your drones, but as it's an all-in as long as you micro your drones properly it's not too bad. In general, ignore the non-bunker-building scv's and go after the marines, and try to pull the weak drones back. I see you've never been 2raxed by Fuzer or "Fuzerstyle"(using the bunkers and scv's to block marines in chokes drones can't mineralwalk). Not saying pulling drones is wrong, it's the right choice but you'll have hard time with 17 pool when 2rax is executed properly. | ||
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