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Wow, nice guide, and I've learned some useful things such as:
denying bases rather than taking them
6-8 ghosts is a good number (hmm so not 15? or is that more for situations where both players have a large economy and so and/or you don't have time to save energy so you need to produce more of them)
reactor:tech lab ratio
Though, even 1.5:1 ratio for reactor:techlab is shocking to me. 6 Tech labs 9 reactors? usually it's the other way. Have you seen any pros get more reactors than tech labs, or is it just for this style that you can be or need to be more marine heavy to stop those zealots, since he doesn't have as much gas and hence you don't need to worry about the AOE damage as much?
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Seems interesting, I'll check it out against my protoss friend. Still not sure of its viability in a timing attack - from watching the first replay uploaded, the protoss seemed to play pretty oddly, going fe into 1gate robo, and building 0 sentries (which is especially strange given how useful ffs would be on that ramp on Ohana) - plus the toss went for 2 robos on 2 base, and a twilight council, without the economy to really support all of that.
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@Yoshi Kirishima
The way QXC put it, is that players will have an all marauder ball. This ball does not have the dps to kill the Protoss army so it slowly dies because you just don't deal the damage. Then players have the marine ball, where they have the DPS to kill a Protoss army but then they die because of how little HP they have.
I think the only time I'm seeing more techlabs than reactors nowadays is to counter Squirtle all-ins, and stalker collosus compositions.
@LlamaNamedOsama
I went 5-0 today on ladder with it and got my golden star ^^. I will continue to upload even mildly interesting replays, and I'll re-order them so that that silly one is not the first one the reader sees.
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On May 13 2012 08:50 Thaniri wrote:
@Yoshi Kirishima
The way QXC put it, is that players will have an all marauder ball. This ball does not have the dps to kill the Protoss army so it slowly dies because you just don't deal the damage. Then players have the marine ball, where they have the DPS to kill a Protoss army but then they die because of how little HP they have.
I think the only time I'm seeing more techlabs than reactors nowadays is to counter Squirtle all-ins, and stalker collosus compositions.
@LlamaNamedOsama
I went 5-0 today on ladder with it and got my golden star ^^. I will continue to upload even mildly interesting replays, and I'll re-order them so that that silly one is not the first one the reader sees.
Ok, thanks! I have noticed more reactors but haven't noticed more reactors than tech labs yet. So this change is simply because protoss has been getting more zealot heavy recently? I mean, I wonder why they didn't go more reactors back then (or rather, why it took so long). Especially since Ghost EMP was so much better back then so HTs were much less of a problem vs marines.
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@Yoshi Kirishima
I am not one to analyze previous metagames. The reasoning for the marines is twofold.
1) Stalkers just are not a particularly good unit in TvP, so yeah Marauders counter them, but Marines do a splendid job as well.
2) Marauders can't deal the damage to the other "filler" alternative, Zealots.
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On May 12 2012 13:49 GleaM wrote:
You're missing a lot.
Forge expand is "bad" well thats sort of retarded, because all it does is delay protoss tech by somewhere around 20 seconds and it is an extremely viable build, as shown in the GSL.
Well, I think he's trying to say that forge fast expand is generally bad against THIS build, which is somewhat true because terran all-ins do a pretty good job of destroying really greedy builds like that. He specified that he changes this build into an all-in once he sees a FFE.
I do recall both Naniwa and Oz using it in the GSL. Oz was of course more successful with it, seeing as he won his game, but I don't think he got all-ined that game, he was just pressured and it was a relatively late pressure too if I remember correctly. Naniwa tried to pull off the same thing, but against MVP's mass rax, marine/scv all-in. He lost even after putting down the third safety cannon that the casters were talking about.
Of course this build is different from a marine/scv all-in, but I'm just saying that a FFE is EXTREMELY hard to pull off against an all-ining terran unless you got a perfect scout in beforehand.
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How does this push fare against double forge as described by NrGMonk? Once i see > 3 rax with starport on 2 base, i would put down 1-2 cannons at natural, and spread stalkers in main. How do you fare with an upgrade disadvantage then?
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@etherealfall
Double forge can be starved. And 4-6 medivacs will outheal the DPS of the mass zealot that is likely coming off of double forge.
I'm not familiar with the NRGMonk version. But I would apply the same principles I know about double forge.
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Hmm. Are you able to get any replays of this vsing double forge?
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Thank you for posting this guide  I also prefer a 4barracks opening in TvP. And to be fair, Terran production often does go by "when you can afford it", but you could go a little more in depth on the timings.
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Good guide, buy can i suggest: if you are going to delay tech, a stonger build will be 5 rax, here is why, and also some small criticism:
1. reaper is ok. i'm not a reaper player but a lot of people feel safe with a reaper on the field and i totally understand that (for watch tower/scouting), but you have to consider chrono'd stalkers as a response to you taking gas (protoss will see). this is a common response and 3gates of stalkers being warped in would give you a huge nightmare as a follow up to this chrono'd stalker harass if you have no bunker
2. 21 CC is dead. 16 CC it buddy, and do it on the lowground like a boss. Protoss WANTS to macro. Think of protoss as zerg. They suck. If they 1 or 2 base all in you, you just repair bunkers and amove once your saturation + mules beats their income on equal bases. So 9/10 times, protoss will 1gate FE in response to this anyways, so just 16 CC.
3. This brings me to my next pt: polt combat shields expand building.. in tvt polt will do 1 barracks fe, but instead of immediately adding those 2 more rax, will instead throw down a geyser. this allows him to start an uber early stim or combatshields + get his two rax negligibly later (like, 5 esconds later. i have done the timings. you miss out on like two marines). i can see this being a smoother way for you to accomplish the ideas of your build, and still get in the protoss base at a relevant time.
4. There is no distinct advantage to going 4 barracks versus 3 that is really that noticeable. if you want to add new barracks past your original 3 (which i wouldn't begin contructing until i've started my third to be honest), do it when your minerals pool from making reactors 2,3 on your rax (assuming you have a techlab on one already)
forgg uses this hiccup in income to afford raxes 4/5 and upon completion, salvages and starts a 11 min 3rd. this is very "all in" but it's almost impossible not to do damage or win the game with 5 barracks and medivacs in tvp mid game
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@TangSC
I'll try to re-work the notes.
@c0sm0naut
I'll just answer all 4 points.
1/4. Funnily, the day after I posted this I started doing a normal 1 rax FE for every game.
2. I try to fit in stim before the CC, to set up for the 4 marauder timing to kill SCVs and scout. 21 CC ensues.
3. Can I get a replay of that in tvp? I have witnessed it in TvT and I actually kill them before 10 minutes passes.
When I 5 rax, I skip the medivacs, pull all my SCVs and do a big old stim timing.
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EPT
