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TheLlamaBuild - MrLlama's 3base ZvP - Page 2
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Vaapad
Norway171 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
Also, I don't see the point of going up to overlord speed/drop if you are going hydras. I assume that you would only do this attack if the protoss takes a 3rd, and I don't think that drop/speed would pay for itself if you can already attack at different fronts. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
Alej also asks a good question and I'm looking forward to that answer. | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On May 02 2012 06:01 MrLlama wrote: When do you drop then? I start my drops a little later so that I can push out and be ready to drop with a 200/200 army. Do you drop earlier to keep them in their base so that you can expand behind it? I thought about that some for sure. I find if you wait for 200/200, you will lose to a good protoss that goes robo first. They will have 2-3 colossus out already with lance completing or sometimes already completed. Dropping ASAP lets you snipe core buildings such as the robo, main nexus, robo bay, or cybernetics core which is what I generally target when dropping. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On May 03 2012 05:49 Alejandrisha wrote: How many drones do you normally go up to when making hydras? Hyun had about 62 drones and when he saw my ~9:30 third, he only made about 8 roaches and the rest hydra ling (started ling speed after hydra range) and cut the 6th gas. What do you think about cutting roaches upon seeing a 3rd and going pure hydra ling after the first set of safety roaches + a few extra? seemed like it was absolutely unbeatable with my 3rd timing Also, I don't see the point of going up to overlord speed/drop if you are going hydras. I assume that you would only do this attack if the protoss takes a 3rd, and I don't think that drop/speed would pay for itself if you can already attack at different fronts. this is a beautiful question. Here is my experience with the build as I have done it over at least 30-40 games of practice (and then more ladder) where I tested out ling hydra, roach/hydra, pure roach, roach ling, roach bane, etc... My drone number differs based on my opponent. Initially I go up to 58-63 workers depending on how well my macro is that game. If I see my opponent investing in air tech I will run another round of drones (and drop some spores) and end up around 70 workers. If I see they are going to 4/5/6 gate me and try to hit early, I will invest in roaches earlier at about 50-55 drones, hold it off pretty easily, and then push out to kill the pylon and force him back. With this I will make another round of drones and usually come up to about 65-70 drones. Those are the 2 instances that I will drone harder because I know I can and it won't affect my timing really. I think hydra ling with 11-12 roaches works as well. I have done hydra/roach/ling timings and they also had a good winrate but the main reason I tended away from it and towards roach hydra is because of my 1/2 upgrades that I aim for now (and the concave that I aim for). While lings can be a good mineral dump and tank tons of shots for cheap, they do not get my 2/3 of my upgrades and when I drop at the top of the main ramp they are no help in really providing a concave. on top of this, lings and hydras both MELT to collosus. If he is going collo and I do that attack, there just isn't enough to tank in my opinion once 1-2 collosi get out. That being said, there are some replays/games where I hit a little earlier with the ling hydra roach mix and it can still do a ton of damage, it's just not as much my style at the moment. I think there is still a lot of room for creativity with this build though so I'm glad hyun is doing his own thing and it's working. I don't see the point of going up to overlord speed/drop if you are going hydras There are 4 major reasons for this. Now I can say that I have simply gone roach hydra ling and hit lots of timings without drop that absolutely crush, but those feel different and generally work better on more open maps where it's easier to hit multiple fronts. 1. hydras are slow. I think we can all agree that hydras need a speed buff or upgrade option at the hydra den. The overlord speed gives your hydras this speed since they can just carry them everywhere. (PLUS ADDED BONUS: Overlords can drop creep so when you do drops in his base, tell all 20 of your overlords to spread creep and you will get a nice laugh) 2. I watched 10 pro replays PvZ that lasted longer than 15 minutes. After discarding the games that were really weird because of too many units lost early on, the average protoss army at 13 minutes was 120/200 supply. Now I have a 200/200 army at that time with a lot of dps thanks to the hydras. Tell me what is the one thing that protoss was given to makeup for this difference and defend at all points in the game? FORCEFIELDS. How many engagements have you had with a protoss army where you know you would absolutely crush him except for the fact that he had forcefields? Too many to count for me at least. So this is where I decided to completely abuse the fact that we get 25 dropships instantaneously and just get drop/speed to fly right over his army and negate forcefields from doing anything. Not only can you negate forcefields in the engagement, but you can negate simcity and terrain difficulties. Think about playing on shakuras plateau and trying to kill off the protoss base by fighting up the ramp. With sim city, ramps, and forcefields, you simply cannot engage up his ramp. This gives him time to sit back, relax, and make a few collosus until he has that deathball amount that just hurts so much to deal with. By getting drops, you can just fly right past this and drop in a position that is favorable for you instead, thus crushing him and forcing an engagement. 3. Hydras are a great defensive unit but honestly they are a dead tech path and so the longer you sit on them, the less valuable they become. You NEED to trade up to start working towards your later game army and so I decided rather than trading trying to push up a ramp and getting obliterated, why not trade more cost efficiently by dropping into his base. 4. you now have DROPS! If you watch my youtube video I showcase the beauty of having drops by not only dropping on top of his army to avoid forcefields, but also dropping his main and third base mineral lines. The more places that the protoss player has to focus, the more chance of mistake for him to make and the better off you are. From there on out you can continue to do drops (maybe infestor drops late game or ling drops or anything) and this is a part of the game that is pretty much completely unexplored in this match up. Now all of the sudden toss players have to start worrying about drops and worst case they have to throw up cannons at their mineral lines which is less money for their army. Just wondering, why wouldn't you go for a 12 minute max out, except adding in drops? By this I assume you mean the 12 minute roach max. I have actually done this but there were 2 problems I encountered. 1. This army simply was not defensive enough for me when they did their 2 base all ins. I know that stephano seems to handle those better but I'm not stephano and all those +2 blink stalker or immortal sentry armies would really just be too close in the battle. I could only win that game maybe 50-60% of the time. By getting hydras who have extremely high dps and are a great defensive unit, any 2 base all ins would get absolutely crushed and so I could simply hold it off a lot easier. 2. Roach drops just didn't work out as well as hydra roach drops did to be honest. I played a game where I dropped 200/200 roach on a sentry immortal stalker army (he had about 3-4 immortals) and it simply got obliterated. I mean it wasn't even close. In theory it sounded a lot better but in the actual game itself I simply did not have enough success with it. I definitely think more people should test it out though. Also the 13 minute max times out better with my 1/2 upgrades. I find if you wait for 200/200, you will lose to a good protoss that goes robo first. They will have 2-3 colossus out already with lance completing or sometimes already completed. Dropping ASAP lets you snipe core buildings such as the robo, main nexus, robo bay, or cybernetics core which is what I generally target when dropping. I rarely find them to have more than 2 collosus. If they have 3 collosus then they will have no immortals or you are simply hitting too late. Usually when I hit, they have 115 supply or so and it's made up of: 1 collosus, 1 collosus on the way, 3-4 immortals, 7-8 sentries, then some stalkers and a couple zealots to fill in the rest of the supply. | ||
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