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[Q] Can cannon rushing really be perfected? - Page 10

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
May 03 2012 03:01 GMT
#181
This is epic! Gogogo cannon rushing!
Bora Pain minha porra!
Clazziquai10
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore1949 Posts
May 03 2012 03:09 GMT
#182
Cannon rush and fail and people call you a noob and say your strategy is stupid........Cannon rush successfully and people say cannon rushing is inbalanced.....ROFL

WAY TO GO GAULZI! Keep doing what other people say you can't do!!! Pretty sure there are GSL players who can learn a thing or two about cannon rushing from this guy should they decide to.....you know.....switch it up a little during their BoX series........

The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot!
oOOoOphidian
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1402 Posts
May 03 2012 03:14 GMT
#183
On May 03 2012 11:51 EC-10 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 09:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On May 03 2012 08:43 Meaon wrote:
On May 03 2012 06:32 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On May 03 2012 04:27 Jaaaaasper wrote:
On May 03 2012 04:06 ][Primarch][ wrote:
So...CombatEx and Deezer are gone but hey Gaulzi comes to rescue, he will make the ladder as disgusting as possible for everyone. Way to go Gaulzi! Herp Fucking Derp


To be fair, from what i have seen of him, he doesn't bm or stream cheat, which was what made combat ez and deezer so despicable. If he does do that as well then yes he is just as bad, if not he is just someone who has chosen to be good at one (cheesy) thing, as opposed to trying to be good at the game over all.

He has streamed his own play when you can clearly hear the sound of his opponent's stream in the background...

I'm pretty sure thats just some made up bullshit...

http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818

first game

same happened when he sniped orb 4 times in a row, he had the stream open



I tend to lurk the strategy forums and enjoy watching streams of protoss players. To be honest the community seems a bit harsh. Yes, I have watched gaulzi and yes I have seen him BM people when his attack fails. I don't see any validity in the claims of him stream watching or intentionally cheating like this. Not to mention, who would want to face the same person four times in a row cannon rushing every time. If someone lost 4 times to this in a row I would be surprised. As many have said before it is knowing how to fight it that will save you from this strategy. People here only see the wins but many other people have beaten him including Idra the 2 other times they met.

About the BM. Yes I have seen him get upset when he loses. So do many many many other players. I never saw the big deal. Yes in events and matches there is a level of respect and showmanship but this isn't that. Again he doesn't BM every game he loses but I can imagine it getting frustrating streaming for 12 hours+ in a row

Lastly his play seems higher level than plat from my experience. Compared to what I have seen from plat players he seems much better with both macro and micro. I am not suggesting he is some starcraft god but there is a significant amount of decision making and micro within cannon rushing, not to mention the follow-ups in failed attempts.

Anyways, have enjoyed his stream and learned a lot about executing and defending cannoning.
I personally think he should get a IlIlIlIIl account to see how many more wins he gets as an anonymous protoss.

Watch the vod. You can hear his opponent's stream in the background and the stream window is open when he alt-tabs.
Creator of sc2unmasked.com
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
May 03 2012 03:26 GMT
#184
On May 03 2012 11:51 EC-10 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 09:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On May 03 2012 08:43 Meaon wrote:
On May 03 2012 06:32 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On May 03 2012 04:27 Jaaaaasper wrote:
On May 03 2012 04:06 ][Primarch][ wrote:
So...CombatEx and Deezer are gone but hey Gaulzi comes to rescue, he will make the ladder as disgusting as possible for everyone. Way to go Gaulzi! Herp Fucking Derp


To be fair, from what i have seen of him, he doesn't bm or stream cheat, which was what made combat ez and deezer so despicable. If he does do that as well then yes he is just as bad, if not he is just someone who has chosen to be good at one (cheesy) thing, as opposed to trying to be good at the game over all.

He has streamed his own play when you can clearly hear the sound of his opponent's stream in the background...

I'm pretty sure thats just some made up bullshit...

http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818

first game

same happened when he sniped orb 4 times in a row, he had the stream open



I tend to lurk the strategy forums and enjoy watching streams of protoss players. To be honest the community seems a bit harsh. Yes, I have watched gaulzi and yes I have seen him BM people when his attack fails. I don't see any validity in the claims of him stream watching or intentionally cheating like this. Not to mention, who would want to face the same person four times in a row cannon rushing every time. If someone lost 4 times to this in a row I would be surprised. As many have said before it is knowing how to fight it that will save you from this strategy. People here only see the wins but many other people have beaten him including Idra the 2 other times they met.

About the BM. Yes I have seen him get upset when he loses. So do many many many other players. I never saw the big deal. Yes in events and matches there is a level of respect and showmanship but this isn't that. Again he doesn't BM every game he loses but I can imagine it getting frustrating streaming for 12 hours+ in a row

Lastly his play seems higher level than plat from my experience. Compared to what I have seen from plat players he seems much better with both macro and micro. I am not suggesting he is some starcraft god but there is a significant amount of decision making and micro within cannon rushing, not to mention the follow-ups in failed attempts.

Anyways, have enjoyed his stream and learned a lot about executing and defending cannoning.
I personally think he should get a IlIlIlIIl account to see how many more wins he gets as an anonymous protoss.


I've only seen him transition into 4 gate or DTs after cannon rush gets stopped. Never seen him try to expand.
EC-10
Profile Joined January 2012
United States7 Posts
May 03 2012 03:41 GMT
#185
On May 03 2012 12:14 oOOoOphidian wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 11:51 EC-10 wrote:
On May 03 2012 09:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On May 03 2012 08:43 Meaon wrote:
On May 03 2012 06:32 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On May 03 2012 04:27 Jaaaaasper wrote:
On May 03 2012 04:06 ][Primarch][ wrote:
So...CombatEx and Deezer are gone but hey Gaulzi comes to rescue, he will make the ladder as disgusting as possible for everyone. Way to go Gaulzi! Herp Fucking Derp


To be fair, from what i have seen of him, he doesn't bm or stream cheat, which was what made combat ez and deezer so despicable. If he does do that as well then yes he is just as bad, if not he is just someone who has chosen to be good at one (cheesy) thing, as opposed to trying to be good at the game over all.

He has streamed his own play when you can clearly hear the sound of his opponent's stream in the background...

I'm pretty sure thats just some made up bullshit...

http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818

first game

same happened when he sniped orb 4 times in a row, he had the stream open



I tend to lurk the strategy forums and enjoy watching streams of protoss players. To be honest the community seems a bit harsh. Yes, I have watched gaulzi and yes I have seen him BM people when his attack fails. I don't see any validity in the claims of him stream watching or intentionally cheating like this. Not to mention, who would want to face the same person four times in a row cannon rushing every time. If someone lost 4 times to this in a row I would be surprised. As many have said before it is knowing how to fight it that will save you from this strategy. People here only see the wins but many other people have beaten him including Idra the 2 other times they met.

About the BM. Yes I have seen him get upset when he loses. So do many many many other players. I never saw the big deal. Yes in events and matches there is a level of respect and showmanship but this isn't that. Again he doesn't BM every game he loses but I can imagine it getting frustrating streaming for 12 hours+ in a row

Lastly his play seems higher level than plat from my experience. Compared to what I have seen from plat players he seems much better with both macro and micro. I am not suggesting he is some starcraft god but there is a significant amount of decision making and micro within cannon rushing, not to mention the follow-ups in failed attempts.

Anyways, have enjoyed his stream and learned a lot about executing and defending cannoning.
I personally think he should get a IlIlIlIIl account to see how many more wins he gets as an anonymous protoss.

Watch the vod. You can hear his opponent's stream in the background and the stream window is open when he alt-tabs.


Ok, so what you are saying is that he ran a probe to every other base before his opponents because he was stream cheating but wanted to cover his tracks. Then he did the exact build that he always does every game as a cover to make it look like he wasn't cheating more. The only plausible reason to have his stream open would be to play him in a ranked game to draw attention to his stream which doesn't have many viewers. There is nearly no benefit to stream cheating when you are cannon rushing other than finding position which was null because he scouted all.

Also to the other post. A lot of games vs z turn into 3 base or more games after cannoning fails.
oZe
Profile Joined January 2011
Sweden492 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 05:34:38
May 03 2012 05:31 GMT
#186
On May 02 2012 19:53 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2012 16:16 thurim wrote:
Well first of all the core question of the op was : "is it possible to hold a very well executed canon rush ?"

The answer is obviously yes as some people here have managed to hold it.
Moreover if you look at all the games i feel like players don't take the first pylon seriously or think they will manage the rush and don't imediately pull 4 or 5 workers to kill it. I am only a noob plat and i don't have anything to teach to those really good players but i feel it is a mistake because if they immediately pull those workers they will destroy the pylon and force the opponent to build a new one on high ground. You lose mining time but he lose minerals to build another pylon so you don't take too much handicap.

Concerning the debate of cheese and the possibility that this start is imbalanced ?

I never understand why people say that cheese, all-in ... are bad and that only macro game count and have a legitimacy. The strat he used require some timings, some tricks (where i can wall off, how can i gain vision of highground ...) and has not to be blame. A lot of strat can be used in SC2 and you can use this wide range to win. Boxer did 3 bunker rush gainst yellow in a semi final



i doubt this guy can be called a noob, a cheeser or anything else. He is not bad at all but used mindgame to take an advantage over his opponent.

Finaly even if this strat is very powerfull in ladder cause he master it very well and people are surprised by this rush, is it a real problem for you guys to see this guy go to GM ?
I mean the ladder are not the final goal of a SC2 player because if

1° you are a non professional your objective is to have fun and try to improve your gameplay cause the more you are good the more you can enjoy the game imho (you are able to play different strat to do nice moves and strats ...), of course if you improve you will up in the ladder but is a consequence of your objective not your objective.

2° you are a professional player you don't care at all of ladder, your main objective is tournament and in them no chance that you can have success with only this strat, it is a very usefull strat if you master it and have the "balls" to do it against very good players because it can help you to take one map of a BO3 but if you are unable to do another strat people will know it and just counter you as hell.

I will end by telling to people who tend to blame this strat (i don't criticize you, it is your opinion and i respect it, i just try to defend another point of view) that you totaly fall into the "game" of the master of canon rush (gaunzi, i don't remember his name sry about that) cause i am pretty sure that if he goes on this topic he will laugh a lot more than Day9 even if it seems difficult cause the laugh of Day9 is epic ^_^

It's not that it's "bad" from a winning point of view, or bad from a "moral" point of view; the problem is that it's "bad" from a playing against it point of view. A complete waste of time for the person who has to go up against it.



There are only two reasons for playing a game. One of them IS TO WASTE TIME. The other is to gain skill. No matter wich way you look at it. He either succeded in wasting your time or gave you the oppurtunity to learn.

In poker there are farmers, who wait for good hands hoping people will pay them off. Foxes, who try to take what's not really theirs. Yeah there are happy go luckys also but that's beside my point. My point is that the biggest reason people go on tilt in poker is that they think that everyone should play the game the way they think it should be played. And they go Mad® when someone is rewarded for doing what they perceive as the wrong thing. Wouldn't it be easy if everyone did what you knew they were going to do? Oh, no lol wait his cover was blown. This cannon guy does do what everyone knows he is going to do =)

Poker and starcraft has many levels. Probably more than any human can comprehend. Who are you to say that cannon rushing is a bigger waste of time than a run of the mill macro game? I would propose that the longest game is the biggest waste of time, but you could waste the same amount of time with a few cannon rushes ;-)

Winning is winning and losing is losing. Saying that it's cheese doesn't change the outcome of the game. It probably only makes you Mad®. Btw psychologists call it rationalization ^^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(making_excuses)

/Says the macro player with almost no micro who only cannon rushed to get the beat 2 ai on insane achieve
The worst kinds of organized crime are religion & government.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 06:19:32
May 03 2012 06:17 GMT
#187
On May 03 2012 11:14 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 09:08 Whitewing wrote:
On May 03 2012 08:55 iAmJeffReY wrote:
On May 03 2012 08:30 Maxd11 wrote:
On May 03 2012 08:15 Whitewing wrote:
On May 02 2012 05:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:
On May 02 2012 05:08 Zodiak wrote:
The assimilator providing free vision on the high ground vs idra was entertaining.

For balancing maps in tournament maps, gas placement relative to the ramp should be taken into account

That's what he did against me twice on antiga. Low ground cannon and pylon, take assim. What do you kill? If you pull off scvs, he's going to cancel cannons as they die, and can even block you out of your own base.

It's just a joke of a strategy that somehow works.

However he beat you twice. I believe this would be more or less equal to him berating you for being worse than him at cannon rushing.

Take the amount of times he's cannon rushed (SO FUCKING MANY. He had like 500 games last season, and already hundreds this season, and is playing on KR, and I'm sure EU) against the amount of times I've been cannon rushed.

Being 2-4 in defending when facing it only 4 times is pretty damn good for never seeing such a lame strategy that often. The bad part is, some protoss fake cannon rush and nexus -> forge -> gate. And, the level of people I play, I expect a ~9 scout to be a nexus first, rarely a cheese like this. There's no way to scout and react, since it hits before you even have marauders.

I faced him twice on KR like last week, and KNEW it was coming, did an 12/12 rax and STILL got beat. Why? Gas steal (what 900 HP for 75 minerals) high ground vision for 3 cannons. No way of picking off anything as once he gets the high ground vision, you're zoned out and can't mine the half of the minerals + he can cannon behind the cover of the other cannons.


If you think you're getting cannon rushed, just take the gas geyser on the side with the cannons so he can't do that >_>.

It is also possible to block a gas steal with a hold position worker. This is less reliable as the extractorbuilding (lol) has more hp then a worker but it costs minerals ofc to take the geyser even if you cancle it. I would recomend just making the extractor as zerg where you lose a negligable amount of resources (less then a worker trip?) if you cancle but it could be situation dependant as the other two races especially terran where you need to lose mining to construct the refinery and it has half the hp as an assimilator.

Fog of war -> cue up an assim -> take gas even if you hold position.

It's been said multiple times.

Completely theorycraft, and it's so damn annoying.


Fortunately, that doesn't work if you take it first.

Unfortunately, the scout timing can line up with a nexus first -> gate, or -> forge gate build, as it 9 scouts. So unless you know he's who he is, you don't drop a gas because you are gasless FEing more often than not. So the only way to stop it, is knowing he's going to cannon rush from a scout at 9 or earlier, that you read as a nexus first, then pylon drops so you pull 4 scvs. You start making units, and probably a bunker and another depot so when you lost the first one you have one...?


It works so well against the high level players because they read into very similar things. You HAVE to FE more often than not to stand a chance. (read more often than not) If toss FEs, and you take a gas because you see a probe that goes down and makes a pylon. Sometimes, he makes it around your barracks, so you read a sase like potential block of addon kind of thing.


so if he cancels the pylon, cancel the refinery, and either way stop building it before it finishes so you can cancel it later if it appears he's not cannon rushing. I don't think you lose more than he loses for the pylon.

If he's doing a sase block add-on, it's because you took gas: if you didn't take gas you aren't building the add-on anyway and you should know it's not an add-on block. If you are going for an add-on, just take the gas closer to the ramp in that case rather than the one further away.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Seam
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1093 Posts
May 03 2012 06:27 GMT
#188
On May 03 2012 12:26 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 11:51 EC-10 wrote:
On May 03 2012 09:56 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On May 03 2012 08:43 Meaon wrote:
On May 03 2012 06:32 oOOoOphidian wrote:
On May 03 2012 04:27 Jaaaaasper wrote:
On May 03 2012 04:06 ][Primarch][ wrote:
So...CombatEx and Deezer are gone but hey Gaulzi comes to rescue, he will make the ladder as disgusting as possible for everyone. Way to go Gaulzi! Herp Fucking Derp


To be fair, from what i have seen of him, he doesn't bm or stream cheat, which was what made combat ez and deezer so despicable. If he does do that as well then yes he is just as bad, if not he is just someone who has chosen to be good at one (cheesy) thing, as opposed to trying to be good at the game over all.

He has streamed his own play when you can clearly hear the sound of his opponent's stream in the background...

I'm pretty sure thats just some made up bullshit...

http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818

first game

same happened when he sniped orb 4 times in a row, he had the stream open



I tend to lurk the strategy forums and enjoy watching streams of protoss players. To be honest the community seems a bit harsh. Yes, I have watched gaulzi and yes I have seen him BM people when his attack fails. I don't see any validity in the claims of him stream watching or intentionally cheating like this. Not to mention, who would want to face the same person four times in a row cannon rushing every time. If someone lost 4 times to this in a row I would be surprised. As many have said before it is knowing how to fight it that will save you from this strategy. People here only see the wins but many other people have beaten him including Idra the 2 other times they met.

About the BM. Yes I have seen him get upset when he loses. So do many many many other players. I never saw the big deal. Yes in events and matches there is a level of respect and showmanship but this isn't that. Again he doesn't BM every game he loses but I can imagine it getting frustrating streaming for 12 hours+ in a row

Lastly his play seems higher level than plat from my experience. Compared to what I have seen from plat players he seems much better with both macro and micro. I am not suggesting he is some starcraft god but there is a significant amount of decision making and micro within cannon rushing, not to mention the follow-ups in failed attempts.

Anyways, have enjoyed his stream and learned a lot about executing and defending cannoning.
I personally think he should get a IlIlIlIIl account to see how many more wins he gets as an anonymous protoss.


I've only seen him transition into 4 gate or DTs after cannon rush gets stopped. Never seen him try to expand.


He expands in the vid on the op o.O
I only needed one probe to take down idra. I had to upgrade to a zealot for strelok. - Liquid`Tyler
Ryder.
Profile Joined January 2011
1117 Posts
May 03 2012 06:44 GMT
#189
http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818

Go to around 29 minute mark for some lols
Ryndika
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1489 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 07:42:09
May 03 2012 07:34 GMT
#190
So anyone has words how to stop this as terran? I usually rally 14th SCV to build second depot if I go gasless but that's not fast enough.
Can it be held with CC first?

http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818
10:45 doesnt seem enough that you depot block the probe.
as useful as teasalt
ChEDo
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada310 Posts
May 03 2012 07:36 GMT
#191
Doubt you can hold it with cc first maybe if you pull your scvs and block him in time
Zarahtra
Profile Joined May 2010
Iceland4053 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 08:24:16
May 03 2012 08:20 GMT
#192
On May 03 2012 16:34 Ryndika wrote:
So anyone has words how to stop this as terran? I usually rally 14th SCV to build second depot if I go gasless but that's not fast enough.
Can it be held with CC first?

I'd think something like 3 rax before OC(2nd and 3rd rax can be made around the time 1st one finishes along with a bunker that's not in range of the first 2 cannons mgiht be a good move. Then as soon as you have slowed down the cannon crawl, you get gas and get rauders so your bunkers no longer get outranged. Also when he starts building 2+ cannons, it seems to me like a must to spread your attacks, so you are dmging all the cannons equally, so he can't just cancel the cannon you are attacking and the other has 100% hp.

Looking at the Select game, if he had started rax 2 and 3 at ~2:50, they'd have been done at ~3:45 and he'd get rine 3 and 4 at 4:10, so it'd be 4 rines vs 3 cannons(those 3 cannons have finished for a bit). Via that, it should be *holdable* and probably at that time he should get gas and probably give rax 2 and 3 tech labs while floating rax 1 to safety and start rauder production. This is obviously just theorycrafting, but I think that'd be the best chance.
Cirqueenflex
Profile Joined October 2010
499 Posts
May 03 2012 08:43 GMT
#193
On May 03 2012 14:31 oZe wrote:
There are only two reasons for playing a game. One of them IS TO WASTE TIME. The other is to gain skill. No matter wich way you look at it. He either succeded in wasting your time or gave you the oppurtunity to learn.


maybe i misunderstood, but i thought the main reason to play a game was to have fun
Give a man a fire, you keep him warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Salts
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada32 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 09:55:53
May 03 2012 09:55 GMT
#194
That this guy is capable of doing this is definitely totally bunk, but I still have to give him props for his creative genius. Not many other players - well, no other players can (yet) say that they're capable of doing what he does. Just look at the timings and pylon/gateway blocks he's come up with on all these different maps. Again, it's BS, I know, but abusive though it very well is, it takes a high level of creativity to come up with some of the ideas he's implemented in his game.
Mowr
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden791 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-03 12:03:43
May 03 2012 12:01 GMT
#195
On May 03 2012 16:34 Ryndika wrote:
So anyone has words how to stop this as terran? I usually rally 14th SCV to build second depot if I go gasless but that's not fast enough.
Can it be held with CC first?

http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818
10:45 doesnt seem enough that you depot block the probe.

If you look at his terran games the ones he loses generally seems to be when the terran pull back and gives up the ramp and make 2-3 protective bunkers to keep him from continuing the cannoning. Walling off the ramp (after the probe gets in) seems to only work when Gaulzi messes up and loses the probe.
I am not sure how to do it on Antiga. If you block the gas he can just build pylons between the gas and edge.
Kill one man and they'll call you a murderer. Kill an army of men and they'll call you a general. But kill all men and they'll call you a god.
Plague1503
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia466 Posts
May 03 2012 12:07 GMT
#196
Probably a stupid idea, and not very well thought out, but if you KNOW you're going to be cannon rushed (i.e. you get matched vs. this guy) and you get Antiga, why not build your first Supply Depot behind your nat minerals, at the location he usually proxies pylons?
"Good luck." "I don't need luck. I have ammo."
Narw
Profile Joined February 2011
Poland884 Posts
May 03 2012 12:31 GMT
#197
So this is why my last 3 ZvP on Antigua i got cannon rushed. Interesting.
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
May 03 2012 12:40 GMT
#198
On May 03 2012 17:43 Cirqueenflex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2012 14:31 oZe wrote:
There are only two reasons for playing a game. One of them IS TO WASTE TIME. The other is to gain skill. No matter wich way you look at it. He either succeded in wasting your time or gave you the oppurtunity to learn.


maybe i misunderstood, but i thought the main reason to play a game was to have fun

having fun and wasting time is not mutually exclusive, neither is gaining skill and having fun
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
dotDash
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden142 Posts
May 03 2012 12:51 GMT
#199
Brace yourselfs! The cannonrushes are on their way! xD
Sidenote: I've been a victim to the antiga crap lol.

Cheers
Dan
Feel free to tune in to my stream! Highmaster T aiming for GM with commentary! http://video.gamecreds.com/1sy1sfohwo31n/channel/dotDash-T-going-for-GM
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
May 03 2012 13:07 GMT
#200
I have really held it easily as terran even on antiga. Denying the high ground vision is key. Pull everything to kill the assimilator on antiga. Thanks for the easy points cheesers :D
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
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