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gaulzi
Iceland24 Posts
On May 03 2012 06:32 oOOoOphidian wrote: He has streamed his own play when you can clearly hear the sound of his opponent's stream in the background... Reference please. | ||
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Squirrel
United States1102 Posts
On May 03 2012 07:17 iAmJeffReY wrote: Geiko? Who is like top 8 high masters? Yea, he was diamond...with terran maybe. He has high masters level macro/micro, which is why a cheese like that works. You'll note that kind of strat falls off real fast, but this cannon rush thing requires PERFECT execution in countering it. You all seem to think it's easy, and again I say this, because you theorycraft and have never played a good cannon rusher. Obviously if pros doing solid builds like gasless FE, which beyond 11/11, 12/14 rax is like the fastest wall off, and continual units. You can't 2 rax a cannon rush (ie marine marauder) He is at your base, with cannons, well before you even finish a tech lab or a reactor on 90% of the maps. The first time I lost to him, and said gg nice cheese, I got a gtfo noob. He looks like some sherlock holmes character as well lol The 3 rax hasn't fallen off. It's still done, and quite often. + Show Spoiler + MVP did it to Naniwa last night... | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 02 2012 05:25 iAmJeffReY wrote: That's what he did against me twice on antiga. Low ground cannon and pylon, take assim. What do you kill? If you pull off scvs, he's going to cancel cannons as they die, and can even block you out of your own base. It's just a joke of a strategy that somehow works. Take the amount of times he's cannon rushed (SO FUCKING MANY. He had like 500 games last season, and already hundreds this season, and is playing on KR, and I'm sure EU) against the amount of times I've been cannon rushed. Being 2-4 in defending when facing it only 4 times is pretty damn good for never seeing such a lame strategy that often. The bad part is, some protoss fake cannon rush and nexus -> forge -> gate. And, the level of people I play, I expect a ~9 scout to be a nexus first, rarely a cheese like this. There's no way to scout and react, since it hits before you even have marauders. I faced him twice on KR like last week, and KNEW it was coming, did an 12/12 rax and STILL got beat. Why? Gas steal (what 900 HP for 75 minerals) high ground vision for 3 cannons. No way of picking off anything as once he gets the high ground vision, you're zoned out and can't mine the half of the minerals + he can cannon behind the cover of the other cannons. If you think you're getting cannon rushed, just take the gas geyser on the side with the cannons so he can't do that >_>. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Good to see i am not the only one who considers cannon rush completely unbalanced and that pros agree (this the only thing i think is imba btw , i dont cry it every time) Its not only on some maps with cute spots behind the mineral line,he can even just build it in your base in plain sight. Even the best response (attacking the cannons with 4 workers each when they build) will put you behind as he just cancels and you lost more minerals in lost mining time then he lost in canceling, Then he can just repeat and before you know it you have 12 workers attacking 3 cannons warping in Realy dont see how to react to this either and think with perfect control this is unbeatable. thx for linking the vid btw, that episode is so awesome (watching it now) | ||
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Maxd11
United States680 Posts
On May 03 2012 08:15 Whitewing wrote: If you think you're getting cannon rushed, just take the gas geyser on the side with the cannons so he can't do that >_>. It is also possible to block a gas steal with a hold position worker. This is less reliable as the extractorbuilding (lol) has more hp then a worker but it costs minerals ofc to take the geyser even if you cancle it. I would recomend just making the extractor as zerg where you lose a negligable amount of resources (less then a worker trip?) if you cancle but it could be situation dependant as the other two races especially terran where you need to lose mining to construct the refinery and it has half the hp as an assimilator. | ||
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Meaon
Iceland42 Posts
On May 03 2012 06:32 oOOoOphidian wrote: He has streamed his own play when you can clearly hear the sound of his opponent's stream in the background... I'm pretty sure thats just some made up bullshit... | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
Next week: 6-pooling to grandmaster! | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 03 2012 08:30 Maxd11 wrote: It is also possible to block a gas steal with a hold position worker. This is less reliable as the extractorbuilding (lol) has more hp then a worker but it costs minerals ofc to take the geyser even if you cancle it. I would recomend just making the extractor as zerg where you lose a negligable amount of resources (less then a worker trip?) if you cancle but it could be situation dependant as the other two races especially terran where you need to lose mining to construct the refinery and it has half the hp as an assimilator. Fog of war -> cue up an assim -> take gas even if you hold position. It's been said multiple times. Completely theorycraft, and it's so damn annoying. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 03 2012 08:55 iAmJeffReY wrote: Fog of war -> cue up an assim -> take gas even if you hold position. It's been said multiple times. Completely theorycraft, and it's so damn annoying. Fortunately, that doesn't work if you take it first. | ||
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w0mble
United Kingdom27 Posts
i use tricks to bait more resources out of the rusher by placing a forge in a funny location so that he has to build excess cannons & hence waste resources / time before he finally techs | ||
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Zoltan
United States656 Posts
if you know its coming if you are terran: 11 depot 11 rax 11 depot wall. cut workers and make 2nd rax asap. | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On May 03 2012 08:43 Meaon wrote: I'm pretty sure thats just some made up bullshit... http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818 first game same happened when he sniped orb 4 times in a row, he had the stream open | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
But things like this should be no surprise to anyone because all-ins are way more powerful in SC2 than they ever were in brood war. | ||
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
00:03:13 - GEGTgaulzi to ALL: fucking shitface Anyway, back to topic: Obviously cannon rushing works well enough to hit GM right now, but so does 6 pool, and 3rax marine/SCV all-ins, and all other manner of cheeses. If you cannon rush every single game, and you would normally play at a high diamond to mid-master level, you could probably hit GM just because you would learn the timings of it inside and out, and have much more experience executing it than people have defending it. It happened with 4gates, and 3rax marine/SCV, and roach/speedling all-ins -- the difference being that as these were seen more often, people started devising ways to deal with it that didn't slow down their build too much. If suddenly half the ladder starts cannon rushing today, you can bet in a week or two that no terran on the ladder would fall for it anymore. In fact, right now a standard 10 depot, 12 rax, 14 depot pretty much stops it in its tracks if executed properly. As soon as you see the proxy pylon you throw up another rax and build a bunker. Anyone who played Xel'Naga Caverns extensively can tell you that cannon rushes don't work too well vs. a Terran who has it in their mind that it could possibly be coming. The replays that were shown on the daily were impressive looking, but also indicative of lack of experience vs. the build. I've lost to cannon rushes a long time ago, but after seeing them a couple of times it's no longer "OH SHIT THERE'S CANNONS IN MY BASE" it's just "oh...his probe got here really early...let me check for...yep, ok, now here's how we deal with it." Once it's injected as part of the metagame (which will probably happen now since it was featured on a Daily), it will be ineffectual vs. any Terran who has seen it once or twice. P and Z have their own ways to deal with it. P it can get tricky with the mineral placements. Z I'm not sure how you ever let them get up in a position where it could actually hurt you, save getting greedy with a hatch before pool. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On May 03 2012 06:35 Eufouria wrote: Holy shit that game against Vines. Apart from having to cancel the cannon to the Zealot that might have been cannon rush perfection. I think that parts of the map that are supposed to just make it more visually appealing, but can be used to create tight walls, like he did against IdrA, should probably be removed if they make it too easy to wall off when cannon or bunking rushing, I don't think its balanced that its that cost effective to wall off. While it was a well-executed cannon rush, VINES' reaction wasn't nearly optimal though. VINES could have just built an expansion at the natural to easily counter that. Using 4 pylons just to wall is terrible and he was just lucky that game. I don't think what he did against Idra was a big deal. Idra just played the worst out of all the players shown in the video. I don't think he cares about practicing about dealing with junky stuff like that since it's so uncommon and "dishonorable". The strategy Gaulzi used really wasn't that strong though. The bigger issue is walling up the ramp with 3 pylons. That can defeat pool first builds as well as hatch first ones as long as the zerg is sealed effectively (have probe hunt drone if exp is canceled and don't let any other drones out) ArcticFox wrote: Z I'm not sure how you ever let them get up in a position where it could actually hurt you, save getting greedy with a hatch before pool. pool first can work if it's not a 3-pylon ramp block, but otherwise pool first won't matter as far as I know (not to say it's unstoppable, but not easy) | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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ArcticFox
United States1092 Posts
On May 03 2012 10:58 Xapti wrote: pool first can work if it's not a 3-pylon ramp block, but otherwise pool first won't matter as far as I know (not to say it's unstoppable, but not easy) Which is why tournament maps have the depot at the bottom of the ramp. Why Blizzard refuses to do the same for the ladder maps is beyond me. Even so, I'd like to know the math behind how much time is lost by having to break out with either roaches or spine pushing compared to the minerals and time lost by the protoss. I'm sure it gets the protoss ahead, I'm just not sure by how much. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:08 Whitewing wrote: Fortunately, that doesn't work if you take it first. Unfortunately, the scout timing can line up with a nexus first -> gate, or -> forge gate build, as it 9 scouts. So unless you know he's who he is, you don't drop a gas because you are gasless FEing more often than not. So the only way to stop it, is knowing he's going to cannon rush from a scout at 9 or earlier, that you read as a nexus first, then pylon drops so you pull 4 scvs. You start making units, and probably a bunker and another depot so when you lost the first one you have one...? It works so well against the high level players because they read into very similar things. You HAVE to FE more often than not to stand a chance. (read more often than not) If toss FEs, and you take a gas because you see a probe that goes down and makes a pylon. Sometimes, he makes it around your barracks, so you read a sase like potential block of addon kind of thing. | ||
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EC-10
United States7 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:56 oOOoOphidian wrote: http://www.twitch.tv/gaulzi/b/313465818 first game same happened when he sniped orb 4 times in a row, he had the stream open I tend to lurk the strategy forums and enjoy watching streams of protoss players. To be honest the community seems a bit harsh. Yes, I have watched gaulzi and yes I have seen him BM people when his attack fails. I don't see any validity in the claims of him stream watching or intentionally cheating like this. Not to mention, who would want to face the same person four times in a row cannon rushing every time. If someone lost 4 times to this in a row I would be surprised. As many have said before it is knowing how to fight it that will save you from this strategy. People here only see the wins but many other people have beaten him including Idra the 2 other times they met. About the BM. Yes I have seen him get upset when he loses. So do many many many other players. I never saw the big deal. Yes in events and matches there is a level of respect and showmanship but this isn't that. Again he doesn't BM every game he loses but I can imagine it getting frustrating streaming for 12 hours+ in a row Lastly his play seems higher level than plat from my experience. Compared to what I have seen from plat players he seems much better with both macro and micro. I am not suggesting he is some starcraft god but there is a significant amount of decision making and micro within cannon rushing, not to mention the follow-ups in failed attempts. Anyways, have enjoyed his stream and learned a lot about executing and defending cannoning. I personally think he should get a IlIlIlIIl account to see how many more wins he gets as an anonymous protoss. | ||
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