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[G] The "Falcon-Punch" 2v2 Build - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Snoodles
Profile Joined March 2012
401 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 12:24:12
April 11 2012 12:20 GMT
#61
I don't get the naysayers who think all the worst-case scenarios are going to happen every time you use this build. (1+x)vs (1+x) inflates your league by about 2-3 leagues vs 1v1, you're not going to play against master scouts and reactive players. If you're diamond or lower in 2v2 you're likely playing vs gold-league opponents. I'm going to try this later.
Snoodles
Profile Joined March 2012
401 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 12:25:00
April 11 2012 12:23 GMT
#62
On April 11 2012 10:42 onimarufaan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2012 01:35 Lukking wrote:
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote:
i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak?
you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??


you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect


i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.

with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not

with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee

with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap

with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal

warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push

your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand

goodluck


Yeah, this build hits around 8 minutes so you WILL distract the banshee player with his one banshee and no army at home. 3-4 marines and a stalker is enough to make him have to micro his banshee away back and forth. You really think that a banshee is going to kill two bases and save him when you've got zealots and archons at his main?
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
April 11 2012 12:41 GMT
#63
i totally agree with you

ofc this build will no win every game, ofc there are build that just counter it, but its incredibly strong against a wide range of standard builds.

Marine + Roaches beat it? but why would you a zerg go roaches vs TP? Roaches suck vs everything Terran can do, especially with some Zealots blocking them.
Fast Cloak Banshee vs TP? what if they have a Robo or the Terran has a second CC? Or do you scan before going cloak? cause you will not be able to scout the base.


And nobody said this build will bring you to absolute top master level mmr, but something like top8 is just no problem.
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
keioh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France1099 Posts
April 11 2012 12:55 GMT
#64
I play Zerg but I'll definitely try this with my P friend. Also I liked how you presented the build, like a commercial on some washing or exercising product "LOOK AT IT ! IT WORKS 99,9% OF THE TIME !". You may want to replace Billy Mays.
GIMME ALL THE BELGIAN WAFFLES I CAN GET FOR THIS MONEY !!!!!! BELGIAN WAFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFLEEEEEEEEES
onimarufaan
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
April 11 2012 13:50 GMT
#65
On April 11 2012 21:23 Snoodles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2012 10:42 onimarufaan wrote:
On April 11 2012 01:35 Lukking wrote:
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote:
i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak?
you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??


you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect


i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.

with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not

with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee

with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap

with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal

warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push

your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand

goodluck


Yeah, this build hits around 8 minutes so you WILL distract the banshee player with his one banshee and no army at home. 3-4 marines and a stalker is enough to make him have to micro his banshee away back and forth. You really think that a banshee is going to kill two bases and save him when you've got zealots and archons at his main?


a banshee player should have wall their base, and banshee doesnt mean he has no army, and banshee could come before 7:30. Lack of range unit, breaking the wall is not that easy by this build.

a banshee is not going to kill two bases, i just want to point out that
1) there is no reason to stop worker production
2) getting an extra CC behind this build is an option, and this give opportunity to scan, macro up, follow up
3) even one or two marauder help breaking wall
4) an early sentry can help def bane bust, GS also help a lot when engage
5) using DT for archon can force detection, also higher DPS

overall, this build have a narrow window to win, not mentioning you need opponent to fast expand
before your timing, 4gate, 4rax, roach bust owns you
after your timing, you are behind in macro

no doubt, zealot archon is a strong composition, but not in this way
onimarufaan
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 13:58:51
April 11 2012 13:55 GMT
#66
On April 11 2012 21:41 Zeon0 wrote:
i totally agree with you

ofc this build will no win every game, ofc there are build that just counter it, but its incredibly strong against a wide range of standard builds.

Marine + Roaches beat it? but why would you a zerg go roaches vs TP? Roaches suck vs everything Terran can do, especially with some Zealots blocking them.
Fast Cloak Banshee vs TP? what if they have a Robo or the Terran has a second CC? Or do you scan before going cloak? cause you will not be able to scout the base.


And nobody said this build will bring you to absolute top master level mmr, but something like top8 is just no problem.


i do play TP with my friend, and i do face marine roach, also i do face fast cloak banshee
that's why terran do everything he can but not feeding the protoss and build nothing
that's why protoss do play robo tech but not 10 gate
that's why i win

p.s. i dont agree this is strong against a wide range of standard builds, but i agree that this build have benefit against zerg
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
April 11 2012 15:09 GMT
#67
so how do you explain the clear over 50% winrate of lower league players in master league 2v2?
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
2Vs2Lukking
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany103 Posts
April 11 2012 18:08 GMT
#68
even eterNo and TeRRoR the long time world#1 team uses this build and has made it even more awesome ... replays will follow
http://de.twitch.tv/lukking
Snoodles
Profile Joined March 2012
401 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 22:37:58
April 11 2012 22:36 GMT
#69
On April 11 2012 22:50 onimarufaan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2012 21:23 Snoodles wrote:
On April 11 2012 10:42 onimarufaan wrote:
On April 11 2012 01:35 Lukking wrote:
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote:
i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak?
you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??


you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect


i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.

with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not

with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee

with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap

with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal

warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push

your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand

goodluck


Yeah, this build hits around 8 minutes so you WILL distract the banshee player with his one banshee and no army at home. 3-4 marines and a stalker is enough to make him have to micro his banshee away back and forth. You really think that a banshee is going to kill two bases and save him when you've got zealots and archons at his main?


a banshee player should have wall their base, and banshee doesnt mean he has no army, and banshee could come before 7:30. Lack of range unit, breaking the wall is not that easy by this build.

a banshee is not going to kill two bases, i just want to point out that
1) there is no reason to stop worker production
2) getting an extra CC behind this build is an option, and this give opportunity to scan, macro up, follow up
3) even one or two marauder help breaking wall
4) an early sentry can help def bane bust, GS also help a lot when engage
5) using DT for archon can force detection, also higher DPS

overall, this build have a narrow window to win, not mentioning you need opponent to fast expand
before your timing, 4gate, 4rax, roach bust owns you
after your timing, you are behind in macro

no doubt, zealot archon is a strong composition, but not in this way


If you go for the fastest possible banshee+cloak timing, all you can hope to have in your base is a few marines and a bunker. I don't think anyone less than a Masters can effectively hold the bunker line + repair against Zealots and archons, AND effectively use their banshee to harass without losing it, while macroing.
onimarufaan
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
April 12 2012 05:26 GMT
#70
On April 12 2012 07:36 Snoodles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 11 2012 22:50 onimarufaan wrote:
On April 11 2012 21:23 Snoodles wrote:
On April 11 2012 10:42 onimarufaan wrote:
On April 11 2012 01:35 Lukking wrote:
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote:
i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak?
you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??


you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect


i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.

with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not

with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee

with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap

with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal

warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push

your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand

goodluck


Yeah, this build hits around 8 minutes so you WILL distract the banshee player with his one banshee and no army at home. 3-4 marines and a stalker is enough to make him have to micro his banshee away back and forth. You really think that a banshee is going to kill two bases and save him when you've got zealots and archons at his main?


a banshee player should have wall their base, and banshee doesnt mean he has no army, and banshee could come before 7:30. Lack of range unit, breaking the wall is not that easy by this build.

a banshee is not going to kill two bases, i just want to point out that
1) there is no reason to stop worker production
2) getting an extra CC behind this build is an option, and this give opportunity to scan, macro up, follow up
3) even one or two marauder help breaking wall
4) an early sentry can help def bane bust, GS also help a lot when engage
5) using DT for archon can force detection, also higher DPS

overall, this build have a narrow window to win, not mentioning you need opponent to fast expand
before your timing, 4gate, 4rax, roach bust owns you
after your timing, you are behind in macro

no doubt, zealot archon is a strong composition, but not in this way


If you go for the fastest possible banshee+cloak timing, all you can hope to have in your base is a few marines and a bunker. I don't think anyone less than a Masters can effectively hold the bunker line + repair against Zealots and archons, AND effectively use their banshee to harass without losing it, while macroing.


simple 1-1-1 build from a terran could do the job, and combo with a bio terran having 3 or more bunker which should easily hold this.

if you hope your opponent cannot hold the 8 min timing push, i dont think you can hold the 6 min double 4gate.

Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
April 12 2012 10:50 GMT
#71
yeah, 111, heavy bio and 3 bunkers, who doesnt do that in 2v2? totally normal build!


did you even try this? or do you just dont like feed builds and try to make it bad looking by pointing out some builds that beat it?
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
Mentalizor
Profile Joined January 2011
Denmark1596 Posts
April 12 2012 13:23 GMT
#72
On April 12 2012 19:50 Zeon0 wrote:
yeah, 111, heavy bio and 3 bunkers, who doesnt do that in 2v2? totally normal build!


did you even try this? or do you just dont like feed builds and try to make it bad looking by pointing out some builds that beat it?


Being a high protoss player (rank 6 EU masters in the just finished season) I can tell zealot/archon does have alot of weakness.
I'm not saying it won't work - but master league in team games are just a joke. It's not master league players. Don't fool yourselves. I've played with gold and platinum players who got masters in team games.
If you tried this against two high masters they would most likely hold it off with cloaked units, fungals, bunkers, colossi, ghosts, mmm kite.

The whole point of your build is that zlot/archon is pretty mobile and very costeffective. However this can be easilly negated by kiting/immobilizing/cloak/not enough surface.

That being said... This is interesting. I'll try it out with a friend who is high terran

My point was just, as you already mentioned, this build will have counters - both blind counters, but also some good players will simply adapt to.
(yಠ,ಠ)y - Y U NO ALL IN? - rtsAlaran: " I somehow sit inside the bus.Hot_Bit giving me a massage"
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
April 12 2012 13:39 GMT
#73
nobody said it will work vs two top8 1v1 master players who understand 2v2. but it will bring you to mid-high masters 2v2 (which will be like top diamond/low master 1v1 most of the time)
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
2Vs2Lukking
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany103 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-12 15:37:17
April 12 2012 15:36 GMT
#74
well...thats true
NO allin ever will beat top players (twice)....ever!
http://de.twitch.tv/lukking
Snoodles
Profile Joined March 2012
401 Posts
April 12 2012 16:41 GMT
#75
I tried this with a friend. Wrote "YOU JUST GOT FALCON PUNCHED", got accused of hacking. Good times.
2Vs2Lukking
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany103 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-12 18:11:54
April 12 2012 18:10 GMT
#76
heheheheheheh nice man 8D good to see some people just using it instead of just worrying about random things that could kill this... awesome
http://de.twitch.tv/lukking
SOB_Maj_Brian
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States522 Posts
April 12 2012 18:29 GMT
#77
On April 12 2012 22:23 Mentalizor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2012 19:50 Zeon0 wrote:
yeah, 111, heavy bio and 3 bunkers, who doesnt do that in 2v2? totally normal build!


did you even try this? or do you just dont like feed builds and try to make it bad looking by pointing out some builds that beat it?


Being a high protoss player (rank 6 EU masters in the just finished season) I can tell zealot/archon does have alot of weakness.
I'm not saying it won't work - but master league in team games are just a joke. It's not master league players. Don't fool yourselves. I've played with gold and platinum players who got masters in team games.
If you tried this against two high masters they would most likely hold it off with cloaked units, fungals, bunkers, colossi, ghosts, mmm kite.

The whole point of your build is that zlot/archon is pretty mobile and very costeffective. However this can be easilly negated by kiting/immobilizing/cloak/not enough surface.

That being said... This is interesting. I'll try it out with a friend who is high terran

My point was just, as you already mentioned, this build will have counters - both blind counters, but also some good players will simply adapt to.


100% agreed; could not have been said any better!
onimarufaan
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
April 12 2012 18:32 GMT
#78
On April 12 2012 22:39 Zeon0 wrote:
nobody said it will work vs two top8 1v1 master players who understand 2v2. but it will bring you to mid-high masters 2v2 (which will be like top diamond/low master 1v1 most of the time)


to bring you to mid master 2v2, i think that early aggression such as 4gate, 3gate robo, mega rax, 4rax ... etc. is more reliable. hitting around 6~7 min means you engage your enemy before any clock unit, at the same time you have enough unit to hold any rush.
2Vs2Lukking
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany103 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-12 18:55:39
April 12 2012 18:51 GMT
#79
...to make it safer vs early aggression, you could squeeze in 2 scentrys and you could scan to key times (that means cloak time or dt time...)
thats one thing, eterNo and TaRRoR are making.
http://de.twitch.tv/lukking
onimarufaan
Profile Joined January 2012
20 Posts
April 12 2012 19:09 GMT
#80
On April 13 2012 03:51 Lukking wrote:
...to make it safer vs early aggression, you could squeeze in 2 scentrys and you could scan to key times (that means cloak time or dt time...)
thats one thing, eterNo and TaRRoR are making.


yeah, sentry is great, make sure you note them into your build, and key time scaning seems to be essential, note that down as well.
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