So xen0 and me have recently discovered a new, very strong 2v2 build.
---This BO ONLY works with a Protoss and Terran Team---
Who are we?? Im a casual player in the diamond working my way up to masters. xen0 is also a good 3v3'er and plays random in the diamond league. In 2v2 we are mid to high Diamond but with this build we have reached #1 MASTERS in just 2 DAYS!!
This Build is all about feeding the Protoss and attacking with Chargelot/Archon. Build order (Terran): 10- Depot 12- Rax 13- Gas 15- 2nd Depot 16- OC/Marine 17- Marine#2 18- SCV/M.U.L.E. 19- Marine#3 (In case of early aggression by opponent => Bunker + Marine#4) 20- 2nd Gas
Then you should have about 800-1100 Minerals and about 300-400 Gas.Constantly feed and M.U.L.E. now!! **You can go "Freestyle" too this build is just optimized for the feeding... it doesnt need to be this exact BO**
Build Order (Protoss): 9- Pylon/Scout 13- Gate#1 14- Gas 16- Pylon#2 17- Cyber-Core 20- Gas#2/Forge/Twillight Council/Templar Archives 21- Forge#2 22- Pylon#3,4/+1 Weapon/Shield/Charge/10 Gates/3 Additional Pylons Time when you push- place 1-2 Warp-In Pylon's
Notes: *Charge should finish at 7:20 and +1/+1 at 7:30* *Constantly queue Upgrades* *Spend all your additional gas on Archons, the minerals completely on Zealots!* *You are immune to Forcefields due to Archons* *Maps with splitted bases , only 1 entrance and a small choke are bad for this Strat so veto them if possible! (I recommend The Boneyard, Scorched Haven, and Lunar Colony V)* *Cut Worker at 17 (You should have exactly 17 workers)* *Put 3 Workers in Gas instantly!* *If you are not sure wether some sort of cloak is on the way, scan at key times for cloaked Banshee's and DT's* * Make 2 Scentries in order to forcefield your Choke in case of early aggression (for a 6 minute timing attack)* *The Player who feeds, has to macro up because the army one has to have almost 200 army supply*
Chrono Boost: First 2 on Nexus,Next 2 on Warpgate,One on Weapon/Shield/Chagre,Next on +1/+1 and the following on the Gates!
Warp-Ins: (- 2 Scentries if you scout early aggression) -10 Zealots + 2 High Templar -9 Zealots + 4 High Templar You Should push with 3-4 Marines, 19 Zealots, 3 Archons with Charge and +1 weapon/shield at 8:10~8:15 Just A-Move Cause its protoss units
About the Engagement: -Against Tanks you wanna spread yourself out a bit and place 2 zealots on front of your army to absorb tankshots! -If there are Rocks, use them! -If you have to fight on a choke, scan right before! -The Terran Player takes the army and micros, the Protoss only macros and warps new units in (about 8 Zealots and 1 Archon per Warp-in Round) -If they early-expanded, you will win!! -Pull away weakened Archons and put them to your reinforcement! -If you break the wallin, run with your zealots in as far as possible! -You NEED to win before they have 200/200 because their army will be twice as bis as yours! -You are save vs drops because you can just warp in 10 zealots! -Always wall in because of scouts! You are much more likely to loose when they scout it!!
---If the engagement went good, just attack several times with your reinforcement and win! ---If the engagement went bad, start a soft-contain with the reinforcement, check hidden expansions and expand behind it! ---If the engagement went middle-ish, just wait for additional upgrades to kick-in and attack with your next 2-3 Warp-in Rounds (You can macro up VERY quickly!!!)
Vs early rushes: This Build's obvious weakness is in the early game beacuse ýou have kinda late warpgate and only 3-4 marines and a bunker to defend with. So scout the hell outta your opponent.If you scouted a rush, build a stalker out of the gateway, continue Marine-Production and make additional Bunkers and repair!
*~# AGAIN, THIS WORKS WE HAVE A 70%+ WINRATE WITH THIS BUILD! !#~*
If You Want to flame or Thank us, xeno#531 / LukKing#519 EU Server Only
Recently Asked Questions: Also, do you ever dark shrine? - No! Because the gas-timing from the Terran is optimated for a high-templar Archon. But it can be helpful to let your opponent scout your Twillight Council so they THINK DT's are on the way! why not more marines from the terran? - Because the zealots have 1 shield and 1 weapon upgrade. The Terran would also supply cap himself and an extra depot is not worth the extra dps!
I simply dont think a random allin in a gamemode that is very unexplored deserves its own thread in the strategy-forums :/ (This is no question but anyways) -First of all...this is NOT an allin!! in one replay we won after 27 minutes...so this build has definately a follow up!!! And we also made about 100 games with this and as said we have over 70% winrate with that and we had even a 8-winstreak while we were rank #1 !
What races is this good against? -This is basically good against all races that can have no wallin because the units instantly get to attack. I have to admit, this build has some weaknesses vs Roaches because they are killed slowly and can be reinforced quickly and vs Banelings it is not bad as you can see in our replay against Z/Z. i Guess Void Rays would ba a problem because Archons are massive but then the Terran can just pump marines.
What if your facing two zerg and they just ling bane you. Hell they might even bust you before your attack is set lol. - This is basically what you scout for. if you see a quick banelingnest or no exop at all, make one additional bunker and more marines while the protoss one can just defend the ramp with cannons!! Btw, why do you stop at 17 scvs if you're gonna attack only at 8 minutes? - First of all, because of the supply cap and you have at least one M.U.L.E. at a time so the soft-saturation is reached. I guess this has to be tried out but i think the Protoss cant afford to get 11 gates that quickly. Its because you want 11 Gates quickly not 14 Gates after like 15 minutes.
I'm with this guy, what happens if someone makes banes or hellions while his ally makes anything ranged (rine/marauder/stalkers or roaches to a lesser extent) -This, i have to admit is the Build's weakness because you cant stop marauders from shooting your gate or pylon. We tried to place the Bunker in the middle of the wallin but this hasn't worked fine either. I guess you could place cannons to defend.
How do you transition out? - You keep making Archons but you can choose if you want to make blink stalkers or continue with chargelot. The Protoss mass expands behind it!!
Some nice Quotes:
-Woho guys! tested it and it's legen wait for it dary ! -> Diamond :D and my terran teammate is a noobie (playing sc2 for about 5 days) thx for the thread
-Hhahahaha I tried this build with my friend. Did so many mistakes but still managed to go 7-0 with it, mid master level. Thank you O' Mighty Falcon Puncher.
-Wow awesome!
-LOL this works! ^^
-Just hit rank1 masters in our division with this strat. Its pretty faceroll. Protoss is not even my main race and I'm only Diamond in 1v1 and my partner is Gold 1v1! Pretty funny stuff
-I tried this with a friend. Wrote "YOU JUST GOT FALCON PUNCHED", got accused of hacking. Good times.
-Well, we did this last night.. as close as we could. The first couple of games we won.. but it was close. As my protoss partner perfected his build we started really hitting a nice window and won 8-10 games in a row. It causes a lot of crying from the opponents because if you do it right it is very very hard to stop.
-Awesome strat =) I was high masters in 2v2 before, but that way it^s just a lot faster, our record is like 10-1 with this build^^
-Thank you for sharing this build! Im currently 10-0 with my mate doing this build ^_^
Haha this is excellent! Not nearly enough teams strategies on the forum. Personally, I don't do feed strategies very often - I'm a big fan of well-coordinated 5:45-6:30 timing attacks (Marauder Zergling, Stalker Zergling, Hellion Zergling, Marine/Roach, etc). Still, I could see this working and I'll try it out. Thanks for taking the time to post on your experiences with an interesting style.
I dont see this holding a 6 minute timing(any matchup combo has a strong timing at around 6 minutes) except on maybe shared bases where the terran can hold the ramp for both players.
nvm, just read the warning that says this doesnt work on split base map. still seems a bit vulnerable to early allins but other than that, chargelot archon is very potent in 2v2s but if you dont kill them early its effectiveness sort of dies down when your opponent starts getting lots of high tech AOE units
OK... I have to admit I am posting without having read the OP yet. The Falcon Punch got me. Me and my flatmates are going crazy with Super Smash Bro's on N64. It started off just being fun... it's now war.
I'm not actually a big falcon fan, I'm actually terrible with him... in the words of TB, I'm a mean Pikachu!
Anyway... back to the topic. I will check it out. I am looking for some strong builds with the P/T combination. Will edit into this post after having read more of the OP.
On April 05 2012 05:55 familyguy123 wrote: ZZ: bling / roach, which is standard fare. into mutas ZT: wall, marine roach ZP: roach/blink, roach, stalker,sentry colossus
TT: marines...... TP: MM + zealots into archons, MM + colossus + gateway fodder, DTs PP: stalker + zealot/colossus is ideal
--- high master 2v2 - mid-master 1v1
we won against almost all of these, which you can see in the replays!
On April 05 2012 05:55 familyguy123 wrote: ZZ: bling / roach, which is standard fare. into mutas ZT: wall, marine roach ZP: roach/blink, roach, stalker,sentry colossus
TT: marines...... TP: MM + zealots into archons, MM + colossus + gateway fodder, DTs PP: stalker + zealot/colossus is ideal
--- high master 2v2 - mid-master 1v1
we won against almost all of these, which you can see in the replays!
its also about execution.
I happened to play 2on2 for fun and suddenly someone said to me "hi, mr. #1 europe 2on2", and i was like "woot?". says a whole lot about how low the skill for 2on2 is and how unimportant strategies are - i beat the best 2on2 AT teams in eruope with random allys and random strategies.
this build is just 1 of X allins that can work, but have their counters as well. a normal Z + x team with the zerg playing 15 hatch into mass roaches out of ~40 drones with his ally playing 1 base stops this easily. its just as abusive as the "derp derp marine scv into high master" allin.
I simply dont think a random allin in a gamemode that is very unexplored deserves its own thread in the strategy-forums :/
Totally just did this same thing but with 3 Terrans in a 4v4, lol.
I just tried it in 2v2 though and it absolutely destroyed the game we got it to work in, still a coordination issue obviously because it's more complex than a-moving roaches and marines but that was totally sick.
PZ - I love pairing with a zerg as a protoss. Ling+bling with 4 gate support wins many of my games PP - Bit more boring, but the builds each protoss can do are endless, they can cover so much aspects of the game just by switching composition.
Masters on SEA and US. I dunno what high, low or mid masters is but I just play 1-2 games a day max.
I think feeding strategies are optimal in 2v2, because a race on 2 base is strictly better than 2 on 1 base. With a PT team, we were top 40 last season in 2v2 on EU, and the main metagame of the top MMR TZ vs TZ was mostly lings/hellions into mass mutas pull (we looked at their build orders). Not surprising that this works really well
The reason why people don't do feeding builds that much, is that it's not really fun for one of the players, while most 2v2 teamers only want to play with their buddy, not make him mindlessly mine resources for them. (I guess you could share units, but you still can't spend resources though...)
meh i dont see why this is so good. its basically a strong chargelot archon attack. What races is this good against? What if your facing two zerg and they just ling bane you. Hell they might even bust you before your attack is set lol. This seems like a gimmicky all in no offense. I dont understand how this can be better than solid play.
On April 05 2012 06:14 JOJOsc2news wrote: OK... I have to admit I am posting without having read the OP yet. The Falcon Punch got me. Me and my flatmates are going crazy with Super Smash Bro's on N64. It started off just being fun... it's now war.
I'm not actually a big falcon fan, I'm actually terrible with him... in the words of TB, I'm a mean Pikachu!
Anyway... back to the topic. I will check it out. I am looking for some strong builds with the P/T combination. Will edit into this post after having read more of the OP.
On April 05 2012 13:27 RedMosquito wrote: meh i dont see why this is so good. its basically a strong chargelot archon attack. What races is this good against? What if your facing two zerg and they just ling bane you. Hell they might even bust you before your attack is set lol. This seems like a gimmicky all in no offense. I dont understand how this can be better than solid play.
I'm with this guy, what happens if someone makes banes or hellions while his ally makes anything ranged (rine/marauder/stalkers or roaches to a lesser extent) its not like you can just split you zealot up to take the bane hits efficiently because the bane guy can just pull back and his ally is shooting you zealots the whole time
On April 05 2012 05:21 Lukking wrote: -Always wall in because of scouts! You are much more likely to loose when they scout it!!
It seems to me like it would destroy anyone that doesn't counter your chargeleots. But that fact alone doesn't make this strategy unique or special, just unexpected ATM.
On April 05 2012 13:27 RedMosquito wrote: meh i dont see why this is so good. its basically a strong chargelot archon attack. What races is this good against? What if your facing two zerg and they just ling bane you. Hell they might even bust you before your attack is set lol. This seems like a gimmicky all in no offense. I dont understand how this can be better than solid play.
I would tend to agree. However, this takes way less skill to perform than reactive 2v2 play.
I think the winrate from this build also comes from playing PT, which can easily hold basically any cheese on any map, due to early wall-in and emergency detection.
Btw, why do you stop at 17 scvs if you're gonna attack only at 8 minutes? An SCV reimburses itself in 80 seconds, build time included but supply depots aside, so one would think that optimal play wouldn't cut scvs at all until saturation, which happens somewhere around 6 mins...
From your screenshot you have 96 games played and 54 wins. That's a 56% winrate, not a 70% winrate. Not to say it's a bad strategy, but it clearly doesn't have a 70% winrate.
On April 05 2012 13:48 Abstinence wrote: From your screenshot you have 96 games played and 54 wins. That's a 56% winrate, not a 70% winrate. Not to say it's a bad strategy, but it clearly doesn't have a 70% winrate.
youre right but the losses are from our diamond play where we lost about 50%...you can watch my match history. it is 70%
I hate to be that guy, but stating winrate is pointless when you dont specify who you are being matched against - plus unless you are consistently being matched vs top 2n2 teams, 70 winrate is low.
/no offense/ you discovered a p feeding strat ..never saw that.. i mean really? 8-11 gate feeds are very common for any TP PP team a year ago it was blink stalker archon (what i think is still superior vs zealot archon) These builds can be deadly but if the enemy scouted or guessed right you are dead
The problem with writing 2v2 guides is that you can never be comprehensive as there are waaayyy too many things to worry about. This results in a lot of people nitpicking on stuff.
Anyways, while T feeding P isn't anything new, I like how this push hits at 8:15 which is pretty early. At the top of the ladder, these archon/zealot feed builds are very powerful, however I've seen it done with 6minute DTs (which forces a massive reaction from opponents) into 9 minute pushes. I find your build pretty easily scoutable and your opponents have 8 minutes to prepare for it. Other than that, you should try to provide more replays for early harass (marauder concussive rush, etc...) that are not necessarily all-in, which is what most top level team are doing.
A good marine/tank defense behind a wall seems pretty hard to break as well. Against a turtling player you usually want to take the whole map, but zealot/archon aren't very good for map control....
edit: i just tried that with a copper league player i met on the TL channel on bnet. we got to diamond with ease. i think this build is good to carry bad player to a good 2v2 league :D
This will not work against anyone who is really trying to win in teams, aka rushing. It will fail to TZ 10p and 3 rax, it'll fail against TT 6 rax, and will probably fail to TP 2 gate 3 rax. Idk about ZZ ZP or PP, my guess is it will work against PP and PZ, but toss is bad in teams anyways so no surprise.
On April 05 2012 23:52 KingLumps wrote: This will not work against anyone who is really trying to win in teams, aka rushing. It will fail to TZ 10p and 3 rax, it'll fail against TT 6 rax, and will probably fail to TP 2 gate 3 rax. Idk about ZZ ZP or PP, my guess is it will work against PP and PZ, but toss is bad in teams anyways so no surprise.
PZ can easily hold it with their own version of an 8gate +1 feed with superior econ. Or Blink Stalkers. Or densive colossus play. Or roach/stargate play. But I find that PZ does really well vs TP/PP. Their problem is TZ/ZZ on split maps, large ramps or small maps.
Had no problems holding this build with random partner or with my ally Sieesch. Just scout and react. - Feed builds are good to get around 800ish points, but when u gonna face decent players with this build, then u gonna have problems !. - The build is good if not scouted, but if it's scouted ): then it's baaad luck !
Well, we did this last night.. as close as we could.
The first couple of games we won.. but it was close. As my protoss partner perfected his build we started really hitting a nice window and won 8-10 games in a row. It causes a lot of crying from the opponents because if you do it right it is very very hard to stop. In the games where we couldnt bust the ramp, we just contained and macroed harder but even then it was a walkover. I really think this strategy is a ton of fun and we will be doing it again for sure.. thanks for this, you really gave me and my teammate some fun stuff to try..
You do realize when you are promoted out of your league to a new league you tend to be first place or very high b/c nobody has joined (look at the exclamation point next to your name). I suspect you will move down in a few days. Having seen semi-competitive 2v2 play in the collegiate starleague and having played masters 2v2 for awhile, I think there is a standard hellion zergling/bling play that tends to win on most maps (there are certain maps with cute P cheese). I like the creativity and change in style, but I don't think this will get you very far once you start playing really good opponents.
Likewise, I have friends who have gone on 20-1 runs in masters etc., which I think can be done w/ 2 very good players considering that most 2v2 masters players are generally not that good. When I play 2v2 masters its usually w/ a weaker player (I am mid-masters) (my allies are silver and platinum). We have won most our games via a warp in using an overlord, usually dts. I think 2v2 is a lot of fun and I am glad you have a fun build that is working for you. I think that's what 2v2 is all about.
Jinro and Travin (hejnar) did similar T+P feeding builds during beta and/or early realease. Think there is a old VOD of Jinro and TLO doing a feeding combo in an old showmatch. But this one is most likely waay more refined. ProTech and one of his allies has a feeding build as Z+Z, think it's something like 1 guy goes 10pool and the other 2base roach and then after 5min the 10pool guy just feeds the roach player. Only what I've seen on his stream so I could be extremely off to how it's done.
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote: i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak? you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??
you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote: i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak? you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??
you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect
i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.
with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not
with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee
with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap
with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal
warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push
your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand
On April 05 2012 05:55 familyguy123 wrote: ZZ: bling / roach, which is standard fare. into mutas ZT: wall, marine roach ZP: roach/blink, roach, stalker,sentry colossus
TT: marines...... TP: MM + zealots into archons, MM + colossus + gateway fodder, DTs PP: stalker + zealot/colossus is ideal
--- high master 2v2 - mid-master 1v1
we won against almost all of these, which you can see in the replays!
its also about execution.
I happened to play 2on2 for fun and suddenly someone said to me "hi, mr. #1 europe 2on2", and i was like "woot?". says a whole lot about how low the skill for 2on2 is and how unimportant strategies are - i beat the best 2on2 AT teams in eruope with random allys and random strategies.
this build is just 1 of X allins that can work, but have their counters as well. a normal Z + x team with the zerg playing 15 hatch into mass roaches out of ~40 drones with his ally playing 1 base stops this easily. its just as abusive as the "derp derp marine scv into high master" allin.
I simply dont think a random allin in a gamemode that is very unexplored deserves its own thread in the strategy-forums :/
"we won against almost all of these.. " this statement means to me = "2v2 is mostly players who dont know hot to utilize army compositions effectively."
For example, if zerg gets roaches, but just moves them into chargelot archon, the zealot archon will easily win, but if the roaches a good suround and micro back and forth to avoid getting hit too much by the charge, and in addition there is creep spread.. the roaches will easily win(also needs roach speed upgrade).
Very often, when playing 2v2 i see players not doing these things, thus reaching conclusions like "roaches dont work" because they didnt utilize(micro or position) them properly. This is exactly why 1v1 is considered "higher skill" than 2v2. Same thing with Terran, if he doesnt micro his MM ball( or didnt get crucial upgrades like concussive shels/combat shields/stim) then chargelots will shred through his bio, leading him and you to think " chargelots kill everything".
When we say, for example, that heavy roach-marine compositions will beat this push, we mean that when controlled correctly.. roach-marine will easily hold a zealot archon push. However, without proper control, nothing beats zealot archon because in a pure A-move engagement it just wins on its own.
yeah...if you let automaton 2000 control...YOU ARE ABLE TO REACT and because u get high income and dont need to switch the tech path too much, you can easily throw down 2-3 robo's and pump out colossi or immortals.
I don't get the naysayers who think all the worst-case scenarios are going to happen every time you use this build. (1+x)vs (1+x) inflates your league by about 2-3 leagues vs 1v1, you're not going to play against master scouts and reactive players. If you're diamond or lower in 2v2 you're likely playing vs gold-league opponents. I'm going to try this later.
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote: i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak? you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??
you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect
i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.
with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not
with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee
with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap
with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal
warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push
your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand
goodluck
Yeah, this build hits around 8 minutes so you WILL distract the banshee player with his one banshee and no army at home. 3-4 marines and a stalker is enough to make him have to micro his banshee away back and forth. You really think that a banshee is going to kill two bases and save him when you've got zealots and archons at his main?
ofc this build will no win every game, ofc there are build that just counter it, but its incredibly strong against a wide range of standard builds.
Marine + Roaches beat it? but why would you a zerg go roaches vs TP? Roaches suck vs everything Terran can do, especially with some Zealots blocking them. Fast Cloak Banshee vs TP? what if they have a Robo or the Terran has a second CC? Or do you scan before going cloak? cause you will not be able to scout the base.
And nobody said this build will bring you to absolute top master level mmr, but something like top8 is just no problem.
I play Zerg but I'll definitely try this with my P friend. Also I liked how you presented the build, like a commercial on some washing or exercising product "LOOK AT IT ! IT WORKS 99,9% OF THE TIME !". You may want to replace Billy Mays.
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote: i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak? you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??
you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect
i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.
with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not
with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee
with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap
with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal
warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push
your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand
goodluck
Yeah, this build hits around 8 minutes so you WILL distract the banshee player with his one banshee and no army at home. 3-4 marines and a stalker is enough to make him have to micro his banshee away back and forth. You really think that a banshee is going to kill two bases and save him when you've got zealots and archons at his main?
a banshee player should have wall their base, and banshee doesnt mean he has no army, and banshee could come before 7:30. Lack of range unit, breaking the wall is not that easy by this build.
a banshee is not going to kill two bases, i just want to point out that 1) there is no reason to stop worker production 2) getting an extra CC behind this build is an option, and this give opportunity to scan, macro up, follow up 3) even one or two marauder help breaking wall 4) an early sentry can help def bane bust, GS also help a lot when engage 5) using DT for archon can force detection, also higher DPS
overall, this build have a narrow window to win, not mentioning you need opponent to fast expand before your timing, 4gate, 4rax, roach bust owns you after your timing, you are behind in macro
no doubt, zealot archon is a strong composition, but not in this way
On April 11 2012 21:41 Zeon0 wrote: i totally agree with you
ofc this build will no win every game, ofc there are build that just counter it, but its incredibly strong against a wide range of standard builds.
Marine + Roaches beat it? but why would you a zerg go roaches vs TP? Roaches suck vs everything Terran can do, especially with some Zealots blocking them. Fast Cloak Banshee vs TP? what if they have a Robo or the Terran has a second CC? Or do you scan before going cloak? cause you will not be able to scout the base.
And nobody said this build will bring you to absolute top master level mmr, but something like top8 is just no problem.
i do play TP with my friend, and i do face marine roach, also i do face fast cloak banshee that's why terran do everything he can but not feeding the protoss and build nothing that's why protoss do play robo tech but not 10 gate that's why i win
p.s. i dont agree this is strong against a wide range of standard builds, but i agree that this build have benefit against zerg
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote: i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak? you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??
you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect
i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.
with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not
with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee
with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap
with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal
warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push
your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand
goodluck
Yeah, this build hits around 8 minutes so you WILL distract the banshee player with his one banshee and no army at home. 3-4 marines and a stalker is enough to make him have to micro his banshee away back and forth. You really think that a banshee is going to kill two bases and save him when you've got zealots and archons at his main?
a banshee player should have wall their base, and banshee doesnt mean he has no army, and banshee could come before 7:30. Lack of range unit, breaking the wall is not that easy by this build.
a banshee is not going to kill two bases, i just want to point out that 1) there is no reason to stop worker production 2) getting an extra CC behind this build is an option, and this give opportunity to scan, macro up, follow up 3) even one or two marauder help breaking wall 4) an early sentry can help def bane bust, GS also help a lot when engage 5) using DT for archon can force detection, also higher DPS
overall, this build have a narrow window to win, not mentioning you need opponent to fast expand before your timing, 4gate, 4rax, roach bust owns you after your timing, you are behind in macro
no doubt, zealot archon is a strong composition, but not in this way
If you go for the fastest possible banshee+cloak timing, all you can hope to have in your base is a few marines and a bunker. I don't think anyone less than a Masters can effectively hold the bunker line + repair against Zealots and archons, AND effectively use their banshee to harass without losing it, while macroing.
On April 11 2012 00:34 onimarufaan wrote: i wonder, how do you fend off banshee with cloak? you dont have an early robo, and you dont have extra CC, where's your detection??
you have scans and you can make a few cannons to detect
i mean, with only one CC, you will never have 2 scans.
with no scouting, you have no idea there is cloak or not
with only few marine/stalker, you lack range unit to kill banshee
with no e-bay and low income, you dont have turrent nor enough cannon to cover two player base, you know, cannon is not cheap
with few worker count, every single worker lost is fatal
warping stalker helps, but no mobile detection means your push will fail, cloak unit do come before your push
your build is one base all-in, just pray for no cloak and they fast expand
goodluck
Yeah, this build hits around 8 minutes so you WILL distract the banshee player with his one banshee and no army at home. 3-4 marines and a stalker is enough to make him have to micro his banshee away back and forth. You really think that a banshee is going to kill two bases and save him when you've got zealots and archons at his main?
a banshee player should have wall their base, and banshee doesnt mean he has no army, and banshee could come before 7:30. Lack of range unit, breaking the wall is not that easy by this build.
a banshee is not going to kill two bases, i just want to point out that 1) there is no reason to stop worker production 2) getting an extra CC behind this build is an option, and this give opportunity to scan, macro up, follow up 3) even one or two marauder help breaking wall 4) an early sentry can help def bane bust, GS also help a lot when engage 5) using DT for archon can force detection, also higher DPS
overall, this build have a narrow window to win, not mentioning you need opponent to fast expand before your timing, 4gate, 4rax, roach bust owns you after your timing, you are behind in macro
no doubt, zealot archon is a strong composition, but not in this way
If you go for the fastest possible banshee+cloak timing, all you can hope to have in your base is a few marines and a bunker. I don't think anyone less than a Masters can effectively hold the bunker line + repair against Zealots and archons, AND effectively use their banshee to harass without losing it, while macroing.
simple 1-1-1 build from a terran could do the job, and combo with a bio terran having 3 or more bunker which should easily hold this.
if you hope your opponent cannot hold the 8 min timing push, i dont think you can hold the 6 min double 4gate.
On April 12 2012 19:50 Zeon0 wrote: yeah, 111, heavy bio and 3 bunkers, who doesnt do that in 2v2? totally normal build!
did you even try this? or do you just dont like feed builds and try to make it bad looking by pointing out some builds that beat it?
Being a high protoss player (rank 6 EU masters in the just finished season) I can tell zealot/archon does have alot of weakness. I'm not saying it won't work - but master league in team games are just a joke. It's not master league players. Don't fool yourselves. I've played with gold and platinum players who got masters in team games. If you tried this against two high masters they would most likely hold it off with cloaked units, fungals, bunkers, colossi, ghosts, mmm kite.
The whole point of your build is that zlot/archon is pretty mobile and very costeffective. However this can be easilly negated by kiting/immobilizing/cloak/not enough surface.
That being said... This is interesting. I'll try it out with a friend who is high terran
My point was just, as you already mentioned, this build will have counters - both blind counters, but also some good players will simply adapt to.
nobody said it will work vs two top8 1v1 master players who understand 2v2. but it will bring you to mid-high masters 2v2 (which will be like top diamond/low master 1v1 most of the time)
On April 12 2012 19:50 Zeon0 wrote: yeah, 111, heavy bio and 3 bunkers, who doesnt do that in 2v2? totally normal build!
did you even try this? or do you just dont like feed builds and try to make it bad looking by pointing out some builds that beat it?
Being a high protoss player (rank 6 EU masters in the just finished season) I can tell zealot/archon does have alot of weakness. I'm not saying it won't work - but master league in team games are just a joke. It's not master league players. Don't fool yourselves. I've played with gold and platinum players who got masters in team games. If you tried this against two high masters they would most likely hold it off with cloaked units, fungals, bunkers, colossi, ghosts, mmm kite.
The whole point of your build is that zlot/archon is pretty mobile and very costeffective. However this can be easilly negated by kiting/immobilizing/cloak/not enough surface.
That being said... This is interesting. I'll try it out with a friend who is high terran
My point was just, as you already mentioned, this build will have counters - both blind counters, but also some good players will simply adapt to.
On April 12 2012 22:39 Zeon0 wrote: nobody said it will work vs two top8 1v1 master players who understand 2v2. but it will bring you to mid-high masters 2v2 (which will be like top diamond/low master 1v1 most of the time)
to bring you to mid master 2v2, i think that early aggression such as 4gate, 3gate robo, mega rax, 4rax ... etc. is more reliable. hitting around 6~7 min means you engage your enemy before any clock unit, at the same time you have enough unit to hold any rush.
...to make it safer vs early aggression, you could squeeze in 2 scentrys and you could scan to key times (that means cloak time or dt time...) thats one thing, eterNo and TaRRoR are making.
On April 13 2012 03:51 Lukking wrote: ...to make it safer vs early aggression, you could squeeze in 2 scentrys and you could scan to key times (that means cloak time or dt time...) thats one thing, eterNo and TaRRoR are making.
yeah, sentry is great, make sure you note them into your build, and key time scaning seems to be essential, note that down as well.
friendy reminder, at 6 min mark, you have invested 2 forge, a TC, templer, double upgrade, charge, lots of gate. but none of them have kick in at this moment, while this is a popular timing to attack
For those complaining that this is a gimmicky all-in build: There's room for gimmicky all-in builds in strategy. (See: BOSS Cannon Rush for a 1v1 equivalent)
And given how 2v2 is relatively unexplored, all the more reason that people should explore it, either by trying this build or seeing what they can do to counter this build while remaining safe against other things as well.
Good work, glad to see some 2v2 strategy being explored here. I'd cut back on the exclamation points though. It makes you seem way too excited about this build to be for real.
Hhahahaha I tried this build with my friend. Did so many mistakes but still managed to go 7-0 with it, mid master level. Thank you O' Mighty Falcon Puncher.
I and my mate where already masters but yesterday at the start we thought which strat we where going. So i remember this one. Alt tab and looked up the thread while playing. Executed it and won a fun game. Push from roach marine marauder on the rock side of the base while we where pushing there front. Both building from terran survived on both sides. Only the archon zealot army against an allready stimmed army of mm was auto win.
Before gg they called us teamliquid thread noobs Care.... Tthx for the thread and built. It was fun to use but if its scouted your screwed
On April 13 2012 18:41 THAmarx wrote: I and my mate where already masters but yesterday at the start we thought which strat we where going. So i remember this one. Alt tab and looked up the thread while playing. Executed it and won a fun game. Push from roach marine marauder on the rock side of the base while we where pushing there front. Both building from terran survived on both sides. Only the archon zealot army against an allready stimmed army of mm was auto win.
Before gg they called us teamliquid thread noobs Care.... Tthx for the thread and built. It was fun to use but if its scouted your screwed
i'd love it , if you could link me to the replay. i will put it in the replay section in my post ^^
Resource feeding is really powerful in 2v2. You can actually get that 70% winratio with any resource feed build, this is nothing new. Just an abuse of a broken mechanic.
Also, I have discovered that PP composition is actually the best for resource feeding builds, protoss actually gets the best macro by spending all his money on making workers and chronoboosting them. Terran simply can't produce that many workers fast enough and mules don't help. While zerg needs to waste 400 minerals (250 pool, 150 queen) to actually start making lots of workers, and then another 300 on the early expansion which really bothers your timings. Plus in a PP composition, the feeding protoss can build a forge and cannons which are the most powerful base defense since it includes anti air and detection without slowing anything, making the build cheese proof. Then the feed protoss just makes 7 gates and rolls the enemy over with massive amounts of units, getting tech and upgrades behind. That's why in my opinion PP composition with protoss feeded is better than PT or PZ.
On April 14 2012 07:42 Tvk wrote: basically any zerg+protoss will win vs this, if they play decent.
Also money dump is not new. I saw it quite often, mostly on protoss units or mass muta.
Agreed on both... and it's not new... but who cares?
Someone thook the effort to describe his 2v2 built... just enjoy that... if your not gone use it just don't. If you have a better built/ tactic make a nice thread about it. Don't spam a few words that you don't like it. Explain why and give better options.
I played a 2v2 a couple day ago as ZZ against a TP in masters league. We attacked with 10 roaches and some lings (variant of 7 roach rush). All they had a was a full wall with a bunker. You might want to beef up the defense a little if you scout earlier aggression. It has the same weakness all timing attacks have.
On April 14 2012 09:17 locopuyo wrote: I played a 2v2 a couple day ago as ZZ against a TP in masters league. We attacked with 10 roaches and some lings (variant of 7 roach rush). All they had a was a full wall with a bunker. You might want to beef up the defense a little if you scout earlier aggression. It has the same weakness all timing attacks have.
yeah if you let em scout your build, it looses efficency period...thats the problem with all timing attacks!
Just hit rank1 masters in our division with this strat. Its pretty faceroll. Protoss is not even my main race and I'm only Diamond in 1v1 and my partner is Gold 1v1! Pretty funny stuff
Our only problem so far is vs zerg/toss that goes roaches + blink stalkers. I think we just need to switch into 2 robo immortals.
Oh yeah, and we found that on Thyrador Keep Terran should fast expand on the inbase expansion. Toss can go around his business as usual, but with the extra money there is room for 3 forges and 16-20 gateways. The downside is of course that the push comes later, however if you play against opponents who also fast expand (which is more or less standard on that map) thats not a problem I think.
As 2v2 master TZ we played against this build recently. We managed to win, but that's because we were just barely able to exploit the weakness of this strategy - poor early defence.
Broke down the back rocks on Tyrador keep and ran into 1 bunker. Easily took it down, and got into the PT base just as the 8 gates were finishing. Took out a game-ending chunk of workers before we got cleaned up, and we immediately put down 3 bunkers and 3 spines in our base just in case.
When the push came, we barely held even with all those defensive structures and repair. Because of the economic damage we did it was game over from there. If we attacked a minute later, I think we would've lost the game.
I'm not sure what you can do to make the build safer while maintaining its effectiveness, but I think it's needed.
On April 17 2012 00:08 AceStar wrote: Me and my friend tried to do a similar build, but I played Z, him P and he fed me for a very strong 8 minute 15 roach push: it works wonders!
8 minutes is super slow for 15 roaches.
A friend and I do something like this (only my friend is T), and generally I am able to spend all our resources for a push that leaves around the 6 and a half minute mark and has about this many roaches, if not more (I am usually able to get closer to 20). I open with a 10-pool and don't go above mineral saturation for 1-base (as taking gas is easier for T and leaves me additional larva I need for the push).
I think it's fairly obvious that it's much more efficient for one member of a team to feed another member while building workers only, it's specialization of task. You can even go further and have one player focus on doing macro only while having the other player control the army 100% of the time. You're basically playing off 2 bases right away while able to focus on upgrading and/or rushing a tech really early on with little chance of being punished. You also don't pay twice for the same upgrade if you dump money into the same player's army. Protoss obviously also have the added benefit of getting its infamous death ball much earlier than a solo game.
If anything, I feel feeding is actually limiting the scopes of 2v2 because of how ridiculous it can become.
Sounds nice but how are u gonna support 11 gates on1 base? i assume u take one expansion after u built 3 gates? otherwise u will lag resources. ...I'm going to try it anyway ^^
On April 17 2012 04:16 DrunkOctopus wrote: Sounds nice but how are u gonna support 11 gates on1 base? i assume u take one expansion after u built 3 gates? otherwise u will lag resources. ...I'm going to try it anyway ^^
...ops, just saw that terran is feeding the toss...that'll work for me :D
On April 17 2012 04:16 DrunkOctopus wrote: Sounds nice but how are u gonna support 11 gates on1 base? i assume u take one expansion after u built 3 gates? otherwise u will lag resources. ...I'm going to try it anyway ^^
lol did you get something wrong?? xD its basically 11 gates on 2 base with 1 player giving his rescources the other player... . . . ok sry ´didnt read that post after the one in the quote
interesting strategy - i think you'll find like me most people play 1s seriously and 2s for fun - and whilst winning is fun, having a terran team mate doing more than just feeding you is often more fun.
given this is essentially a 2base timing attack - i would imagine there would be more optimised feed builds
On April 17 2012 01:37 Cracked wrote: As 2v2 master TZ we played against this build recently. We managed to win, but that's because we were just barely able to exploit the weakness of this strategy - poor early defence.
Broke down the back rocks on Tyrador keep and ran into 1 bunker. Easily took it down, and got into the PT base just as the 8 gates were finishing. Took out a game-ending chunk of workers before we got cleaned up, and we immediately put down 3 bunkers and 3 spines in our base just in case.
When the push came, we barely held even with all those defensive structures and repair. Because of the economic damage we did it was game over from there. If we attacked a minute later, I think we would've lost the game.
I'm not sure what you can do to make the build safer while maintaining its effectiveness, but I think it's needed.
well, i ve said this build is full of bug, as the timing window is too narrow. but the writer could only see his strength, but not his weakness, and not listening.
if a map having back door is great for his push, it is even harder for him to hold early push
On April 17 2012 01:37 Cracked wrote: As 2v2 master TZ we played against this build recently. We managed to win, but that's because we were just barely able to exploit the weakness of this strategy - poor early defence.
Broke down the back rocks on Tyrador keep and ran into 1 bunker. Easily took it down, and got into the PT base just as the 8 gates were finishing. Took out a game-ending chunk of workers before we got cleaned up, and we immediately put down 3 bunkers and 3 spines in our base just in case.
When the push came, we barely held even with all those defensive structures and repair. Because of the economic damage we did it was game over from there. If we attacked a minute later, I think we would've lost the game.
I'm not sure what you can do to make the build safer while maintaining its effectiveness, but I think it's needed.
well, i ve said this build is full of bug, as the timing window is too narrow. but the writer could only see his strength, but not his weakness, and not listening.
if a map having back door is great for his push, it is even harder for him to hold early push
yeah thats obviously true...but wouldnt it be bad if i just showed how lame this strat is by referring to all the scenario's in whitch this will loose instead of showing its strengths...im well aware of this builds weaknesses and ive written em down!
On April 17 2012 01:37 Cracked wrote: As 2v2 master TZ we played against this build recently. We managed to win, but that's because we were just barely able to exploit the weakness of this strategy - poor early defence.
Broke down the back rocks on Tyrador keep and ran into 1 bunker. Easily took it down, and got into the PT base just as the 8 gates were finishing. Took out a game-ending chunk of workers before we got cleaned up, and we immediately put down 3 bunkers and 3 spines in our base just in case.
When the push came, we barely held even with all those defensive structures and repair. Because of the economic damage we did it was game over from there. If we attacked a minute later, I think we would've lost the game.
I'm not sure what you can do to make the build safer while maintaining its effectiveness, but I think it's needed.
well, i ve said this build is full of bug, as the timing window is too narrow. but the writer could only see his strength, but not his weakness, and not listening.
if a map having back door is great for his push, it is even harder for him to hold early push
yeah thats obviously true...but wouldnt it be bad if i just showed how lame this strat is by referring to all the scenario's in whitch this will loose instead of showing its strengths...im well aware of this builds weaknesses and ive written em down!
i have an idea about Chrono Boost if you are chronoing upgrade, while you engage only after your upgrade finish, you will need 3 chrono on +1, +1, and charge to boost your timing by 10 sec. but 3 chrono on cyber would boost your warp tech by 30 sec, which is nearly a round of warping, means more unit to def early game.
On April 17 2012 00:08 AceStar wrote: Me and my friend tried to do a similar build, but I played Z, him P and he fed me for a very strong 8 minute 15 roach push: it works wonders!
If the Z feeds the P, you get a round of 8 +1 zealots around 6:15, and 4Z + 4S for the next wave. Then you get 40 speedlings around 7 to reinforce, and still won't miss a round of warpin.
The problem with PZ is always the maps though. P cannot wall on large ramps, so Z has to early pool and then you're way behind. Which is why it works so well for PT; you're uncheesable.
On April 18 2012 03:51 The_Unseen wrote: I like how people who don't know shit about high level 2v2 keep nitpicking on stuff and saying a wall stops that. Abstraction ftw i guess
Actually this strategy is far from high level 2v2, I'd say its about low-mid masters at best.
On April 18 2012 03:51 The_Unseen wrote: I like how people who don't know shit about high level 2v2 keep nitpicking on stuff and saying a wall stops that. Abstraction ftw i guess
Actually this strategy is far from high level 2v2, I'd say its about low-mid masters at best.
yeah thats why we got #1 masters and eterNo and Terror are using it in clanwars...
i think its a good build but i guess u cant hold an 8p with 11/11 rax or a good bling/rauder bust even if scouted ... so in my opinion this build only kicks ass if its unscouted otherwise as a tz team u can hold that of easily
but u guys should start thinking of that build just as an option so scout what opponents are doing and then decide if this shit is gonna work or not all i read here sounds like dia people using a build over and over again without reflecting the enemys..
edit: and lukking please stop talking like this is THE GREATEST BUILD its just another feed build which can be very strong but it also can be very weak so nothing special but anyways nice to see people talking about 2n2 builds so keep going lukking :p
Very great build! just won 5 placement matches and got dia instantly! I'd like to note tho that in case of reapers the eco of the feeder might get crippled so i am adding 1 stalker after the 2 sentries in case of a terran w/ gas, if i scout no factory. it should only delay the push by maybe 15 seconds but in case of reapers the push actually doesnt get crippled to 50% power. lower risk slightly lower reward. still crushes extremely hard :D
looks promising, I can't wait to try it out, but I also can't wait to tweak it a little bit. I've been in master's 2v2 for a while using simple 6 minute pushes or long macro games, but feed builds always seem to give me and my buddies trouble. It'll be fun to turn the tables on them and throw a feed build of our own at them The only other one I've tried is feeding zerg for fast muta while walling up with terran, which works pretty well but sometimes backfires completely.
I'm a diamond 1's player and my friend is a masters player (him being toss). With this, we were able to take out a top 30 GM and his top 8 ranked master's partner.
Also, it's funny seeing other toss frantically try and FF only to have it destroyed a second later.
I hate you guys... I think either you guys did this build on me and my friend or someone read this guide and did it.
The game was T,T (us) vs T,P... so... it proceeds like a regular game... then I scan and see 10 gates, 2 forges, TC, and a templar archive... I was like what the FUCK is that? no expansions.. either... and what do you know... a minute later I see freaking 10 chargelots and 4 archons at my wall... and each freaking warpin brings in 10 zealots.. sigh..
On April 05 2012 05:55 familyguy123 wrote: ZZ: bling / roach, which is standard fare. into mutas ZT: wall, marine roach ZP: roach/blink, roach, stalker,sentry colossus
TT: marines...... TP: MM + zealots into archons, MM + colossus + gateway fodder, DTs PP: stalker + zealot/colossus is ideal
--- high master 2v2 - mid-master 1v1
we won against almost all of these, which you can see in the replays!
Maybe, but you caught your opponent off guard by some crazy shit they did not expect? Hey, no offence to that because that is a good reason for a strategy.. but i think that since this build can be somewhat notable, you can bet people are going to prepare for it more. Scouting obviously can cause you to games because if they wall your pretty boned.
My friend and me tried this build yesterday and we are stunned. It's very confusing for the other players and you can simply overrun them at the 8:00 minute mark. I love this build! Still, we lost once yesterday to TT, which opened up with 3 and 4 rax. If you see something like that, it is really important, to get your sentries in time which I didn't do yesterday. We will try to experiment with this build, maybe to make it even more confusing.
I've faced this before (master T in 1v1 with friend who is bronze 1v1 - we're diamond in 2s) vs some team who tried this against us (they were diamond too). Our team was PT on one of the maps were you have an in base expo. I'm the T and went 1rax expo, my friend went 3gate robo, they couldn't break our wall and we rolled them once my expo fully kicked in. I just went thorzain expo (1rax expo -> 3rax marines with stim/cs/+1/2 reactors).
Don't know how well this really works on a map where you can have an expo behind a wall, albeit the people we played were diamond 2s so probably not that good. If I remember correctly it was pretty easy to scout and as we were on 3base vs their two, had no reason to move out. This gives no splash so nothing to deal with just mass marine behind some meatshield, and there's nothing here to break a ramp well. On maps where there isn't an easy to take nat I guess it's a pretty strong push, although I'd imagine roach/hellion fares decently against it, or something similar, or probably just mass marine/whatever teammate builds. Mass marine/stalker or roach too, since marines are what you want really and other units meatshield. Going units like tanks/immortals/lings are obviously pretty stupid and might lose you the game.
All the same, I'm sure if you want to grind out wins in 2s, it works ok. Honestly though, save yourself time and just go 6pool/cannon rush. So annoying to hold that, esp as team with no Z. Faster wins.
Well as coin flippin, all ins go (which makes a huge percentage of arranged team games) this one seems like it could be reasonably fun, which seems to lack from a lot of 2v2 play.
On May 26 2012 19:55 teamamerica wrote: I've faced this before (master T in 1v1 with friend who is bronze 1v1 - we're diamond in 2s) vs some team who tried this against us (they were diamond too). Our team was PT on one of the maps were you have an in base expo. I'm the T and went 1rax expo, my friend went 3gate robo, they couldn't break our wall and we rolled them once my expo fully kicked in. I just went thorzain expo (1rax expo -> 3rax marines with stim/cs/+1/2 reactors).
Don't know how well this really works on a map where you can have an expo behind a wall, albeit the people we played were diamond 2s so probably not that good. If I remember correctly it was pretty easy to scout and as we were on 3base vs their two, had no reason to move out. This gives no splash so nothing to deal with just mass marine behind some meatshield, and there's nothing here to break a ramp well. On maps where there isn't an easy to take nat I guess it's a pretty strong push, although I'd imagine roach/hellion fares decently against it, or something similar, or probably just mass marine/whatever teammate builds. Mass marine/stalker or roach too, since marines are what you want really and other units meatshield. Going units like tanks/immortals/lings are obviously pretty stupid and might lose you the game.
All the same, I'm sure if you want to grind out wins in 2s, it works ok. Honestly though, save yourself time and just go 6pool/cannon rush. So annoying to hold that, esp as team with no Z. Faster wins.
normally you can break a 1rax fe and 3gate robo easily if t hasnt walled in with like 2layers of buildings ^^ maybe it was a little abd executed... i dont know.
Seems like your build worked well that week. But the winning streak ended shortly after your post.
What have you changed in the past week to make it back to top masters? I've been playing PP (I'm top diamond) and i've been tweeking a similar build for a year now. With a Protoss partner the feeder makes canons for defending & harassing, but no mules/scans
What do you do vs 2 base roach + other guy all in? or early baneling busts? or fungal growth? or mass banshees in your mineral line & while they've fortified their ramp?
it will get quite a bit of BM from other players. A solid wall off generally cant be busted, like a rax wall. How do you get past that? Btw, I think you need more exclamation marks!
Seems like your build worked well that week. But the winning streak ended shortly after your post.
What have you changed in the past week to make it back to top masters? I've been playing PP (I'm top diamond) and i've been tweeking a similar build for a year now. With a Protoss partner the feeder makes canons for defending & harassing, but no mules/scans
What do you do vs 2 base roach + other guy all in? or early baneling busts? or fungal growth? or mass banshees in your mineral line & while they've fortified their ramp?
1. Every protoss should be putting pylons around their partner's cc/nex no matter what strat you should be doing 2. You got 2 forges. 3. You have an ally with mules giving you all his minerals 4. You have pylons around your nexus and ally's nexus 5. Cannons detect. 6. HT can feedback banshee. 7. It takes a lot of resources to rush for cloak. that means small ground army. That means terran can skip mules, and toss can afford to throw down a robo while attacking with 1 scan to help out. 8. The rules of the game allow you to scout gas timings.
Not that hard to stop cloak, as long as you are aware of the possibility. Of course if you don't suspect until DT's are swiping your wall, then yeah your fucked. My partner usually leaves marines back home to deal with counter attacks, and tech/expands behind our attack.
Turtling can be okay, but while were busting down the defenses we are usually expanding and teching behind it.
To the OP: I dont think you covered making probes enough... My partner and I dont cut workers, and our attack happens just barely after yours does.
You REALLY need to take out the 2nd chrono on warpgate... im sorry it just never really works for me. When I do a 2nd chrono it ALWAYS comes out about 15 seconds before my gateways are finished, whereas with 1 it finishes at the exact time my gateways are starting to finish, while I can get the rest of the upgrades coming out of the same time if I use that one on the second forge upgrade it comes out faster.
I'm also gonna refine this build a bit more with my friend, so take this next part with a bit of salt. I think it might be better to always-ish add in 2 sentries early ish (after you got twilight started) and cut out the last gateway to make sure you got an extra pylon early on, preferably at ally's CC (to add in cannon if necessary). Its VERY easy to get pylon blocked, and when I'm going at this I'm usually building all these buildings off of 3 pylons and its kind of a challenge to fit it all within the pylon power! That extra get I find isn't getting all that much use. If you get more upgrades, you DEFINITELY can't afford it, if you forget those and chrono out your 11 warpgates you still can't afford constant production so its chill with 11 for now.
thanks for your advanced feedback...i always love those comments 8D! yeah 2 scentries are good at defense and chrono might not be perfect good to see that people still find this thread and try to improve it.
oh perfect! ^^ i was just browsing liquipedia for some inspiration how to convert my 1v1 chargelot/archon BO into something that i could use with my terran 2v2 partner and found this awesome thread *g* have not tried it out yet, but the whole concept looks very good to me already ^^ i hope my terran partner agrees and is willing to give it a try
EPT![[image loading]](http://s1.directupload.net/images/120404/pvka5rkh.png)
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