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On March 31 2012 18:19 Forbidden17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 18:11 Geiko wrote:On March 31 2012 18:04 Forbidden17 wrote:On March 31 2012 17:29 Geiko wrote:This style is quite good, but I've heard it can be very tricky to defend 7minute 5 warp gate pushes followed by 7 gate blink stalker all-ins.  how exactly do you get warpgate to complete before the 7min mark off a ffe? o.o I call it the UltraGreedy GFE against Z who I expect will be playing greedy. You basically skip scout, go nexus first, and instead of going Forge gate pylon gas, you go gate gas pylon forge and skip the cannon all together, just get a zealot to defend. With a proxy pylon you can warp at their base at 7:00 with six +1 zealots. Warp gate is so early that if your opponent is doing a 2 base all-in, you can defend it with first round of warpins, otherwise, it just hits a timing that zergs aren't used to. wow sounds a little risky, I assume it's only viable if you scout a gassless opening? would you do this against a zerg who takes gas? as your build sounds optimized for that early +1 zealot timing with the first (i'm assuming first?) warp-in, what if your opponent hits you with a ling/baneling all in, would you have the gas to warp in sentries reactively?
It's not only a little risky, it's completely all-in. However if your opponent does any kind of all-in that hits after 7:00, you should be able to hold. My build gets 3 gases after gates so yeah I have enough gas to make defensive sentries. Thing is, since you don't scout, you can't really know what to expect.
I was only posting here because I beat Tang the other day with this when he was going Stephano Style opening and I wanted to rub it in a little ^^
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On March 31 2012 18:11 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 18:04 Forbidden17 wrote:On March 31 2012 17:29 Geiko wrote:This style is quite good, but I've heard it can be very tricky to defend 7minute 5 warp gate pushes followed by 7 gate blink stalker all-ins. how exactly do you get warpgate to complete before the 7min mark off a ffe? o.o I call it the UltraGreedy GFE against Z who I expect will be playing greedy. You basically skip scout, go nexus first, and instead of going Forge gate pylon gas, you go gate gas pylon forge and skip the cannon all together, just get a zealot to defend. With a proxy pylon you can warp at their base at 7:00 with six +1 zealots. Warp gate is so early that if your opponent is doing a 2 base all-in, you can defend it with first round of warpins, otherwise, it just hits a timing that zergs aren't used to. Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 18:08 aebriol wrote:On March 31 2012 18:04 Forbidden17 wrote:On March 31 2012 17:29 Geiko wrote:This style is quite good, but I've heard it can be very tricky to defend 7minute 5 warp gate pushes followed by 7 gate blink stalker all-ins. how exactly do you get warpgate to complete before the 7min mark off a ffe? o.o You make the gates around 7 minutes and warp in at 8:10 or so  Build time is 65 in game seconds. He just worded that weirdly. No I really warp things at 6:50 ^^
That is really smart Do you have the probe micro to defend 6 pool with that? Sorry for misunderstanding, thought I understood what you meant.
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On March 31 2012 18:44 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 18:11 Geiko wrote:On March 31 2012 18:04 Forbidden17 wrote:On March 31 2012 17:29 Geiko wrote:This style is quite good, but I've heard it can be very tricky to defend 7minute 5 warp gate pushes followed by 7 gate blink stalker all-ins. how exactly do you get warpgate to complete before the 7min mark off a ffe? o.o I call it the UltraGreedy GFE against Z who I expect will be playing greedy. You basically skip scout, go nexus first, and instead of going Forge gate pylon gas, you go gate gas pylon forge and skip the cannon all together, just get a zealot to defend. With a proxy pylon you can warp at their base at 7:00 with six +1 zealots. Warp gate is so early that if your opponent is doing a 2 base all-in, you can defend it with first round of warpins, otherwise, it just hits a timing that zergs aren't used to. On March 31 2012 18:08 aebriol wrote:On March 31 2012 18:04 Forbidden17 wrote:On March 31 2012 17:29 Geiko wrote:This style is quite good, but I've heard it can be very tricky to defend 7minute 5 warp gate pushes followed by 7 gate blink stalker all-ins. how exactly do you get warpgate to complete before the 7min mark off a ffe? o.o You make the gates around 7 minutes and warp in at 8:10 or so Build time is 65 in game seconds. He just worded that weirdly. No I really warp things at 6:50 ^^ That is really smart Do you have the probe micro to defend 6 pool with that? Sorry for misunderstanding, thought I understood what you meant.
Lol no you auto lose to 6 pool and any 1 base zerg all in
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This build is the most overpowered thing ever, max out 12 minutes whilst taking 4-5th whilst continuously trading with the protoss army whilst remaxing immediately. Then tech to Broolords infestor if you have to. There is literally NOTHING protoss can do. I just do 2 base all ins now, fuck PvZ.
User was warned for this post
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On March 31 2012 21:31 Eiaco wrote:
This build is the most overpowered thing ever, max out 12 minutes whilst taking 4-5th whilst continuously trading with the protoss army whilst remaxing immediately. Then tech to Broolords infestor if you have to. There is literally NOTHING protoss can do. I just do 2 base all ins now, fuck PvZ. Don't whine. Get better... especially on your level (i consider you are not a progamer) there are no strategies which are unbeatable with solid play.
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Has anyone doing this build encountered protosses who go nexus into 2gates (after scouting no gas from zerg) or 2gates into nexus while pumping zeals? If so, what is the best way to going about transitioning? Do you still get 3 hatch, or stay on 2 hatch and tech up with spines ? Go roaches and try to break him?
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On March 30 2012 03:45 Sakray wrote:Actually almost nothing 
Nah, instead toss just has to be really smart. It deflects all the 2base pressures so don't do that... Although I have seen stephano lose to +2 blink all in before.
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On March 31 2012 22:25 NOOBALOPSE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:45 Sakray wrote:On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote:
What can toss do to prevent this? Actually almost nothing Nah, instead toss just has to be really smart. It deflects all the 2base pressures so don't do that... Although I have seen stephano lose to +2 blink all in before.
If you're talking about the game vs JYP on shattered, then the only reason he lost was because he sacked around 3/4 of his roach army to killing the third base, and had nothing to defend against a counter attack.
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On March 31 2012 17:29 Geiko wrote:This style is quite good, but I've heard it can be very tricky to defend 7minute 5 warp gate pushes followed by 7 gate blink stalker all-ins.
Not like anyone has ever suggested you need to follow the exact build in the OP no matter what.
You scout, see multiple chronoboost on cyber core, or simiply no or late gas at Protoss nautral, then just make Roach Warren that much earlier for higher possibility of early gate aggression.
Some talked about GFE, but even with FFE, 7min10sec warpgate research finish is possible. Watch Nanwa vs DRG in MLG Winter Arena on Daybreak where Naniwa only took 1 gas at main to maximize this build.
Scout, then adjust accordingly. Thats all you need. Build in OP is a good start to adjust from, not absolute best in all situations for obvious reasons.
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Excellent guide, my ZvP is soo good now =) I beat a master's dude today, and I'm plat, wooo =)
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On March 31 2012 22:06 badtooth wrote:
Has anyone doing this build encountered protosses who go nexus into 2gates (after scouting no gas from zerg) or 2gates into nexus while pumping zeals? If so, what is the best way to going about transitioning? Do you still get 3 hatch, or stay on 2 hatch and tech up with spines ? Go roaches and try to break him?
Actually if they open with 2gate zealot, you can do a Zenio-style Speedling/Baneling timing off 3 bases. In my experience, this response works really well. Or you could just get the gas before your 3rd hatch to make sure you can clean up his zealot pressure with lings. Perhaps even an earlier warren or a spine at the 3rd with slow lings.
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On March 31 2012 18:11 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 18:04 Forbidden17 wrote:On March 31 2012 17:29 Geiko wrote:This style is quite good, but I've heard it can be very tricky to defend 7minute 5 warp gate pushes followed by 7 gate blink stalker all-ins. how exactly do you get warpgate to complete before the 7min mark off a ffe? o.o I call it the UltraGreedy GFE against Z who I expect will be playing greedy. You basically skip scout, go nexus first, and instead of going Forge gate pylon gas, you go gate gas pylon forge and skip the cannon all together, just get a zealot to defend. With a proxy pylon you can warp at their base at 7:00 with six +1 zealots. Warp gate is so early that if your opponent is doing a 2 base all-in, you can defend it with first round of warpins, otherwise, it just hits a timing that zergs aren't used to. Show nested quote +On March 31 2012 18:08 aebriol wrote:On March 31 2012 18:04 Forbidden17 wrote:On March 31 2012 17:29 Geiko wrote:This style is quite good, but I've heard it can be very tricky to defend 7minute 5 warp gate pushes followed by 7 gate blink stalker all-ins. how exactly do you get warpgate to complete before the 7min mark off a ffe? o.o You make the gates around 7 minutes and warp in at 8:10 or so Build time is 65 in game seconds. He just worded that weirdly. No I really warp things at 6:50 ^^
Like you say, this build is pretty risky and dies to early pools, Roach/ling or ling/baneling timings. It also hinges on being able to get that proxy pylon up to do the 5 gateway warpin, which most good zerg playes will deny with active ling scouting.
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Hey Tang I was wondering if you could go into more detail regarding the Zenio bust? I've got a problem of not being able to get my overlords in position in time to scout my
Protoss opponent only taking 2 gas especially if I send my first overlord in the wrong direction. I find that with the 14 pool you have to put your second overlord over your natural until lings are out otherwise there's a good chance they will throw cannons behind your mineral line. By the time lings are out and I've scouted protosses starting location I can't seem to get my overlords in the Protoss base if my first overlord didn't get sent directly too it. What should I do to assure I can scout the lack of gas and once I do scout it how do I transition from 3 base macro into a 3 base Zenio bust?
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Tang, how do you continue to execute this build when P pylon blocks your nat and cannon rushes your 3rd? I can't seem to get more than 4 lings out without cutting my queen, and 4 lings can't kill the pylon in my nat AND stop the cannon rush quickly enough.
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On April 03 2012 01:28 SKGZombie wrote:
Hey Tang I was wondering if you could go into more detail regarding the Zenio bust? I've got a problem of not being able to get my overlords in position in time to scout my
Protoss opponent only taking 2 gas especially if I send my first overlord in the wrong direction. I find that with the 14 pool you have to put your second overlord over your natural until lings are out otherwise there's a good chance they will throw cannons behind your mineral line. By the time lings are out and I've scouted protosses starting location I can't seem to get my overlords in the Protoss base if my first overlord didn't get sent directly too it. What should I do to assure I can scout the lack of gas and once I do scout it how do I transition from 3 base macro into a 3 base Zenio bust?
I've only been able to find two replays of Zenio doing the build, and it didn't seem to be in response to scouting his protoss opponent's expansion gas geysers. Basically you take your expansion then start your gas geyser in you rmain once your lings are out (Queen and lings will deny probe scouting in the main). You use your first 100 gas to research speed and then a baneling nest when you can afford it. Instead of getting a 2nd queen and playing standard macro, you stay on one queen and use her to spread one tumour and continue to inject. You drone to the mid/late 20s, then switch into ling production. You bust with 6-8 banelings and as many lings as possible off 3 hatch and 1 queen. It's usually used on maps where the protoss expansion is very wide open (Not ideal on maps that can be easily walled with large buildings (like Shakuras).
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On April 03 2012 02:46 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Tang, how do you continue to execute this build when P pylon blocks your nat and cannon rushes your 3rd? I can't seem to get more than 4 lings out without cutting my queen, and 4 lings can't kill the pylon in my nat AND stop the cannon rush quickly enough.
What do you do with your 2nd overlord? Personally, I send it to the 3rd right away so I know about any pylons going down at my expansion. If you see him starting to cannon your 3rd, send your 4 zerglings there first.
Also, why can't you produce more than 4 Zerglings? If you're making lings from 18-20, can't you just build another set or two at 20?
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On April 03 2012 05:05 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 02:46 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Tang, how do you continue to execute this build when P pylon blocks your nat and cannon rushes your 3rd? I can't seem to get more than 4 lings out without cutting my queen, and 4 lings can't kill the pylon in my nat AND stop the cannon rush quickly enough. What do you do with your 2nd overlord? Personally, I send it to the 3rd right away so I know about any pylons going down at my expansion. If you see him starting to cannon your 3rd, send your 4 zerglings there first. Also, why can't you produce more than 4 Zerglings? If you're making lings from 18-20, can't you just build another set or two at 20?
Mainly afraid of overproducing lings. If there's a pylon in my nat, and 2 pylons building at my 3rd, do I go kill the pylons at the 3rd first? Slow lings actually are pretty slow getting to my 3rd usually. Send first 4 lings to 3rd, build another 2 to nat?
I usually go gasless until the 3rd goes down, should i just get speed first always? idk It's not like speed will build in time anyway (before I need to plant my 3rd).
My overlord placements are:
1- Send to corner of enemy's base for eventual sac
2- to my nat
3+ - search for proxy pylons
Should I instead do:
1- To nat
2- To 3rd
3- To sac location
4+ proxy pylon spotters?
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On April 03 2012 02:46 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Tang, how do you continue to execute this build when P pylon blocks your nat and cannon rushes your 3rd? I can't seem to get more than 4 lings out without cutting my queen, and 4 lings can't kill the pylon in my nat AND stop the cannon rush quickly enough.
When my Protoss opponent blocks my nat and and then tries to cannon my third that I take as my second base I usually just stop the cannon rush with my first 4 lings then go back to my natural to take care if the pylon block. It might delay your third hatch (which is now at your natural) but as long as you keep producing drones making overlords and hitting your injects if your third dosnt go down right at 24 supply it's not a bug deal. Also if Protoss is spending that many resources to block the nat and cannon the third they are heavily delaying their tech so delaying your third a little really is no big deal.
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On April 03 2012 08:05 SKGZombie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 02:46 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Tang, how do you continue to execute this build when P pylon blocks your nat and cannon rushes your 3rd? I can't seem to get more than 4 lings out without cutting my queen, and 4 lings can't kill the pylon in my nat AND stop the cannon rush quickly enough. When my Protoss opponent blocks my nat and and then tries to cannon my third that I take as my second base I usually just stop the cannon rush with my first 4 lings then go back to my natural to take care if the pylon block. It might delay your third hatch (which is now at your natural) but as long as you keep producing drones making overlords and hitting your injects if your third dosnt go down right at 24 supply it's not a bug deal. Also if Protoss is spending that many resources to block the nat and cannon the third they are heavily delaying their tech so delaying your third a little really is no big deal.
Let's say he builds like 3 pylons at my 3rd though. Like, he really, really wants to get those cannons down. One P I played against suggested I just 2-base muta. Is this viable? In the event that P commits rather hard (like 2-3 pylons and 2-3 cannons) to cannon rushing either my nat or my 3rd.
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On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote:
What can toss do to prevent this?
i've been having a lot of trouble with it so i watching hero jyp and other koreans.
what was most successful was a ffe into blink stalkers, but not all in. take a third with 5 gates blink and +2 and build up gateways with your third with cannons. The blinks stalkers not only are needed later to deal with bl but are highly cost effective in holding the relentless attacks. Also when you can, you want to throw down a robo for obs and maybe some immortals to assist.
the combination of blink stalker micro, cannon assistance, and well placed forcefields, are good enough to hold off the attacks and build up economy/tech behind.
the most important things ive found to stay alive are:
1. mainatin map control and harass to prevent droning with blink stalkers
2. dont be overly aggressive by moving out your tech gas units (sentries and immortals) bc a ling surround or fungal is gg
3. heavy stalker count is better than being spread thin on tech
4. as soon as attacks stop, be sure to immediately start teching to mothership and ht/archons (if they get too many broodlords, imo there is no way to kill their army without a archon toliet)
this is just my opinion. there are lots of other ways
also here is my fav pvz opening:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275
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EPT
