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On April 03 2012 08:37 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Let's say he builds like 3 pylons at my 3rd though. Like, he really, really wants to get those cannons down. One P I played against suggested I just 2-base muta. Is this viable? In the event that P commits rather hard (like 2-3 pylons and 2-3 cannons) to cannon rushing either my nat or my 3rd.
Any good 2 base all-in should do it. hydra+nydus (with the nydus like a proxy pylon) is probably the best one. It's a pretty good all in, and if they are behind 400+ minerals from cannon rushing, they probably can't hold it.
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On April 03 2012 08:52 regulator_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 08:37 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Let's say he builds like 3 pylons at my 3rd though. Like, he really, really wants to get those cannons down. One P I played against suggested I just 2-base muta. Is this viable? In the event that P commits rather hard (like 2-3 pylons and 2-3 cannons) to cannon rushing either my nat or my 3rd. Any good 2 base all-in should do it. hydra+nydus (with the nydus like a proxy pylon) is probably the best one. It's a pretty good all in, and if they are behind 400+ minerals from cannon rushing, they probably can't hold it.
I'm wondering if you could even just take your 3rd elsewhere on certain maps, knowing he can't move out with a gateway push as early since he put so much into cannon rushing the 3rd. Though personally, if a protoss is persistent enough I'll almost always go for a baneling bust.
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On April 03 2012 08:37 PeanutsNJam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 08:05 SKGZombie wrote:On April 03 2012 02:46 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Tang, how do you continue to execute this build when P pylon blocks your nat and cannon rushes your 3rd? I can't seem to get more than 4 lings out without cutting my queen, and 4 lings can't kill the pylon in my nat AND stop the cannon rush quickly enough. When my Protoss opponent blocks my nat and and then tries to cannon my third that I take as my second base I usually just stop the cannon rush with my first 4 lings then go back to my natural to take care if the pylon block. It might delay your third hatch (which is now at your natural) but as long as you keep producing drones making overlords and hitting your injects if your third dosnt go down right at 24 supply it's not a bug deal. Also if Protoss is spending that many resources to block the nat and cannon the third they are heavily delaying their tech so delaying your third a little really is no big deal. Let's say he builds like 3 pylons at my 3rd though. Like, he really, really wants to get those cannons down. One P I played against suggested I just 2-base muta. Is this viable? In the event that P commits rather hard (like 2-3 pylons and 2-3 cannons) to cannon rushing either my nat or my 3rd.
Are the 3 pylons finishing before your hatch? If that's the case just cancel the hatch and take your third somewhere else.
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On April 03 2012 23:09 SKGZombie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 08:37 PeanutsNJam wrote:On April 03 2012 08:05 SKGZombie wrote:On April 03 2012 02:46 PeanutsNJam wrote:
Tang, how do you continue to execute this build when P pylon blocks your nat and cannon rushes your 3rd? I can't seem to get more than 4 lings out without cutting my queen, and 4 lings can't kill the pylon in my nat AND stop the cannon rush quickly enough. When my Protoss opponent blocks my nat and and then tries to cannon my third that I take as my second base I usually just stop the cannon rush with my first 4 lings then go back to my natural to take care if the pylon block. It might delay your third hatch (which is now at your natural) but as long as you keep producing drones making overlords and hitting your injects if your third dosnt go down right at 24 supply it's not a bug deal. Also if Protoss is spending that many resources to block the nat and cannon the third they are heavily delaying their tech so delaying your third a little really is no big deal. Let's say he builds like 3 pylons at my 3rd though. Like, he really, really wants to get those cannons down. One P I played against suggested I just 2-base muta. Is this viable? In the event that P commits rather hard (like 2-3 pylons and 2-3 cannons) to cannon rushing either my nat or my 3rd. Are the 3 pylons finishing before your hatch? If that's the case just cancel the hatch and take your third somewhere else.
That's what I was thinking. On a map like Shakuras or Antiga you could just take one of the middle bases and come out ahead.
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Thank you for this guide! Maxing by 12 is harder than it seems for someone without masters+ mechanics (you supplyblock once or sit on a few idle larva and it adds up), but even when I only come close (my best in a real game where I'm losing things has been 14-15) I'm basically rolling diamond zvp. Using the benchmarks section to analyze my replays has been extremely helpful. Well-made guide.
A question - since the 12 minute max must presumably be followed by an attack (the only idea I can think of worse than sitting on max roaches without doing anything with them is dancing in traffic) do you recommend going up to 80+ drones after said attack? (And presumably then beginning to tech.)
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Tang making a macro guide? O_O.
Thanks tho, knew the general outline of the build but very helpful to see it all laid out
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... I really need to find a way to beat Zerg on ladder then 
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On March 30 2012 04:59 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:45 Sakray wrote:On March 30 2012 03:39 daredpanda wrote:
What can toss do to prevent this? Actually almost nothing  The koreans know how to beat it 
:note:
HerO shits all over it on his stream on the regular. He absolutely dismantled MVP.Killer/Sniper on his stream yesterday with 4 gates + robo, a prism and crazy forcefields backed with prism micro to save the immortals. But for us mere mortals......
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On April 04 2012 22:54 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Tang making a macro guide? O_O.
lol seems like an oxymoron, doesn't it?
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Not even a zerg player but bravo on the guide. Very well constructed. +1 internets to you sir.
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On April 05 2012 01:09 TangSC wrote:lol seems like an oxymoron, doesn't it?
Stephano's ZvP macro style (or is it?)
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On April 05 2012 02:42 regulator_mk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 01:09 TangSC wrote:On April 04 2012 22:54 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Tang making a macro guide? O_O.
lol seems like an oxymoron, doesn't it? Stephano's ZvP macro style (or is it?)
Lmao. The next in the "Or is it?" series with be DRG's Roach/Ling/Baneling
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I have a question, sorry if someone has asked this before, but...
What is the transition you should be doing as Zerg if you scout protoss doing 2 stargate build after FFE?
roaches and lings isn't going to cut it.
Do you just throw up a hydra den and continue to max out?
Also what about DT timings?
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On April 05 2012 09:56 neoghaleon55 wrote:
I have a question, sorry if someone has asked this before, but...
What is the transition you should be doing as Zerg if you scout protoss doing 2 stargate build after FFE?
roaches and lings isn't going to cut it.
Do you just throw up a hydra den and continue to max out?
Also what about DT timings?
Thats what stephano does he plants down a bunch of spores to defend gets a hydra den and then maxs out on roach hydra and pushs as seen in this replay of Stephano Vs Elfi
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Since learning this build I have been dominating ZvP in diamond. With some simple micro and scouting its really easy to defend early aggression and deny the third. If you have the mechanics to not get supply blocked and etc this build should be the standard for your ZvP.
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On April 04 2012 22:54 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Tang making a macro guide? O_O.
Thanks tho, knew the general outline of the build but very helpful to see it all laid out
Well that's still to make an abusive unstoppable push at some early point in the game (12 min is still early for PvZ).
When the build is designed so that your opponent cannot macro himself, it cannot really be called a "macro" build.
That's like calling a 7 gate after Nexus first in PvT a macro build.
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On April 05 2012 11:40 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:54 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Tang making a macro guide? O_O.
Thanks tho, knew the general outline of the build but very helpful to see it all laid out Well that's still to make an abusive unstoppable push at some early point in the game (12 min is still early for PvZ). When the build is designed so that your opponent cannot macro himself, it cannot really be called a "macro" build. That's like calling a 7 gate after Nexus first in PvT a macro build.
7gate has no transition if it fails.
This one allows you to get a 4th, transition to spire right after maxing out if you feel like it.
I really like this build a lot.
Thanks Tang.
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yes, another excellent guide, thanks!
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Man this build is so strong vs P as a toss player I don't know what to do against it
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On April 05 2012 11:46 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 11:40 ZenithM wrote:On April 04 2012 22:54 TheSubtleArt wrote:
Tang making a macro guide? O_O.
Thanks tho, knew the general outline of the build but very helpful to see it all laid out Well that's still to make an abusive unstoppable push at some early point in the game (12 min is still early for PvZ). When the build is designed so that your opponent cannot macro himself, it cannot really be called a "macro" build. That's like calling a 7 gate after Nexus first in PvT a macro build. 7gate has no transition if it fails. This one allows you to get a 4th, transition to spire right after maxing out if you feel like it. I really like this build a lot. Thanks Tang.
There is a whole Protoss strategy thread (older than this one in fact) which mostly concluded that in theory this ZvP build shouldn't fail, and is at least very hard to stop/requires a very specific response. Stephano rarely loses with it btw.
I didn't mean that it's an all in, more like it's not designed to play a macro game with Protoss. The goal is still to deny his third over and over by swarming him with an overwhelming amount of roaches early in the game, until P's just forced to 2 base all in. In fact, that may be the earliest dangerous Zerg timing in the ZvP matchup which isn't an all in.
This build is very good. A macro build? Well, you macro some roaches indeed, can't deny that.
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EPT
