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On March 24 2012 04:40 crocodile wrote:
I think people are missing the point about this build here. Regardless of whether its viable at a high level or if the opponents are bad, you can win in high master league with it. Meaning it is fun and viable for 99% of sc2 players. If you've never experienced the satisfaction that is ANNIHILATING a maxed Templar/colossus/chargelot ball, i recommend you try it.
This is pretty much spot on.. Not to mention Breach's gm game..
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Exactly what Crocodile said.
Stop hating just to hate. Personally I'm not gearing up to play in the next GSL, so I don't care if it it's 'most efficient' way or the 'best way to beat Protoss'. For me it's the most fun way to play and, I don't know about you, but I play a GAME to have FUN.
So you don't like it? You don't think it's viable? You have no interest in trying to help or offering positive feedback? Then close this thread. This isn't for you.
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Even some pro players wouldn't be believed if they said "mech TvP is good" . . so not a lot of hopes for 'random' master/gm :/
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
@Crocodile
Honestly, I only watched the first replay, but it did seem like a very poor game to learn anything from. You were floating 1k Minerals by 10:00, he was floating 1k+/1k+ at 15:00 and was at 1/0/0 upgrades. You didn't scout his hidden third, and so (I'm assuming this is the reason) you delayed your third A TON when you could have had it probably 3-4 minutes earlier. When you pushed you had a 30 supply lead, ~180 to ~150, and neither of you had done any real economic damage to each other. The differences in Macro, and the big flaws in your strategies make it really hard to learn anything from that replay, other than macro is really important (and that Masters players don't have very good macro). I don't think you should post replays like that at all, they just add to the stupid back and forth debates about "You won because of X, not because of Mech", and fair enough, in that game, you did win because of macro.
@Breach_Hu
That was an awesome replay, highest level game I've seen of Mech posted. Everyone should check this game out, and please post more!
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On March 24 2012 04:45 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Crocodile
Honestly, I only watched the first replay, but it did seem like a very poor game to learn anything from. You were floating 1k Minerals by 10:00, he was floating 1k+/1k+ at 15:00 and was at 1/0/0 upgrades. You didn't scout his hidden third, and so (I'm assuming this is the reason) you delayed your third A TON when you could have had it probably 3-4 minutes earlier. When you pushed you had a 30 supply lead, ~180 to ~150, and neither of you had done any real economic damage to each other. The differences in Macro, and the big flaws in your strategies make it really hard to learn anything from that replay, other than macro is really important (and that Masters players don't have very good macro). I don't think you should post replays like that at all, they just add to the stupid back and forth debates about "You won because of X, not because of Mech", and fair enough, in that game, you did win because of macro.
@Breach_Hu
That was an awesome replay, highest level game I've seen of Mech posted. Everyone should check this game out, and please post more!
Watch the other replays, they are much higher quality.
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I always find it kind of funny when I manage to both out expo, out army produce as well as out tech my toss opponents; all while going mech, because they're so used to the standard hard turtle into deathball vs bio.
I keep looking for whatever it is I must be missing but apparently him starting a third at 20 min vs my fourth (while playing a passive nr20 game) is apparently what is happening. Then I realise I'd probably still lose to that guy going bio...
And then comes the whine, "not even a move"* is probably my favorite.
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*After me performing a few very careful; slow, siege pushes that gave him ample time to bm and edge me on while performing his apparently harder than a-move strat (Or a-move strat for that matter as much as it makes me shudder).
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On March 24 2012 04:34 Lyyna wrote:
Well,there is good and bad toss. But protoss's skill level , even here in high master/Low GM is kinda awful. So you have to dig a bit to find good rep' :/
Well I'm not going to disagree with this statement  My APM rarely breaks 50 and I'm low masters as toss :/ But there's very basic things your opponents were doing wrong that even I do right.
On March 24 2012 04:34 Lyyna wrote:I'll start to add replays of me loosing if i think they are interesting. But for example my 2 lasts loss with this build was because, in one case, i got supply blocked for like 2 minutes early game (note to myself : never play again at 3am with only 4 hours sleep last night) for one, and because i forgot siege mode in the other. . . .
I really think you have to include replays of losses. Otherwise it's a safe assumption you're just playing vs baddies unless you have specific replays vs high masters or GM.
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On March 24 2012 04:49 HeyJude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:34 Lyyna wrote:
Well,there is good and bad toss. But protoss's skill level , even here in high master/Low GM is kinda awful. So you have to dig a bit to find good rep' :/ Well I'm not going to disagree with this statement My APM rarely breaks 50 and I'm low masters as toss :/ But there's very basic things your opponents were doing wrong that even I do right. Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:34 Lyyna wrote:I'll start to add replays of me loosing if i think they are interesting. But for example my 2 lasts loss with this build was because, in one case, i got supply blocked for like 2 minutes early game (note to myself : never play again at 3am with only 4 hours sleep last night) for one, and because i forgot siege mode in the other. . . .
I really think you have to include replays of losses. Otherwise it's a safe assumption you're just playing vs baddies unless you have specific replays vs high masters or GM.
apm isn't really important. I'm one of these players who show that x)
Yes,i'll add loss now. Basically these replays packs wasn't here to make a guide, but only to show my style on some special places. So i didn't included loss . . i'll do now. But if you care about my opponent's rank you can just check it on sc2Ranks,and see the lowest are mid master (loosing streak ftw) and the highest are . well, top 50 gm
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As some people were asking for losses here's a laddergame I've played vs Lyyna yesterday on EU ladder, around 1000pts master. It felt kind of easy playing against him (much easier than vs bio terrans. I think mech depends a lot on the Protoss player making mistakes,
Anyway heres the replay
http://drop.sc/140838
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I would love to see mech finally become really viable in TvP, hopefully this might start a revolution 
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oh that is an interesting mech style, thanks for this guide. Went into bio lately though, so i can play mass reapers lategame against toss, but will fiddle around this when i am getting bored of jetpacks !
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@Kaito : funny game.
I failed my build (so it's nothing about the protoss here) . I launched a 2nd factory instead of the starport and ended up in a midgame situation without banshee , so 0 harassment, and impossible for me to "easy win" midgame fights abusing cloak, and i got gas starved a lot. Also don't have my usual sensor tower at 3rd, so no position advantage for me
So in fact the only point of this replay would be to show why banshee are so good with mech and what happens when you don't make these
(and when i saw the fail 2Nd fact i basically gave up and stopped to follow my build, because i know i was knowing i was in a shitty position, unable to harass/deny expo, and unable to win most straight fight)
Especially in this game, the 1st banshee could have arrived in your base when your obs was reaching mine,with all your stalkers out of position . . .so it could have ripped your minerals line
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On March 24 2012 04:41 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:36 nOondn wrote:On March 24 2012 04:26 crocodile wrote:On March 24 2012 04:00 nOondn wrote:On March 24 2012 03:25 crocodile wrote:On March 24 2012 03:06 TangSC wrote:
I really feel like mech was severely weakened (against protoss) since the blue flame hellion nerf.
Then protoss received a buff making their upgrades more effective, a huge bonus for zealots in PvT, I felt like that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Goody, who's known specifically for using mech in every matchup, mentioned that he was struggling to beat protoss since those patches.
Do you think it's a viable option at the top levels? Yes, I just don't think it's being played right. Here are some of my replays from the other mech tvp thread, which I was told were of higher quality than Lyyna's. I actually got most of my ideas on how to play mech from Yoshi Kirishima's stream though, so it might be a slightly different style. Still master league opponents though. http://drop.sc/140222http://drop.sc/140223http://drop.sc/140224http://drop.sc/140225 i think lyynna replay has better quality than you,in term of opponents. Ah, good point. Really great post man, I especially liked the parts where you constructively critiqued my play while explaining the flaws in my opponents' play that made them inferior to those of Lyyna, instead of just posting your unsupported opinion and making yourself look like a fucking idiot. game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ... Did you only watch game 1? Game 1 was the weakest opponent out of all the replays. Game 4 and game 3 are much higher quality. Plus it was still a master league opponent. Better than 98% of protosses by rank
game 1 @ protoss macro fucking bad ... 20+ min with 3/0 upgrade and 1500/1500 money/gas ...
Game 2 @ standard bad protoss who scout and saw gas and still expand into 4 gate ,so basicly he far behind in term of tech.His macro very poor too @ 19 min he got +1 armour with 1600 gas ... wtf ?
Game 3 (Nap) @ protoss is stupid @ first battle . eventhough he saw 3 factory,he still attacking without seeing your army composition.So at this point protoss fucking far behind. he can do better than that such as sit infront of your base while sending his unit @ your 3rd (he doesn't even know that you got 3rd )
Game 4 (potato) @ yet again protoss scout and saw your gas but he going into 4 gate into 3 base so at this point with his delay tech your banshee can do so much damage than normal.And his macro so poor, @ 21 min he only got 2/2 with 1000+ gas save up .
so basicly, all of your opponents was so bad bad bad bad . .. . . -_-
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
-You know he isn’t fast expanding (second fast gas, adding gates,etc).
It may be dated but stalker-sentry-sentry expo will generally take second gas at like 20 supply, even sometimes before the nexus if the stalker has a scout to kill first (scout would see gas before nex)
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At which supply do you plant down the nexus with that build?
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On March 24 2012 04:48 blackberry_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:45 ZjiublingZ wrote:
@Crocodile
Honestly, I only watched the first replay, but it did seem like a very poor game to learn anything from. You were floating 1k Minerals by 10:00, he was floating 1k+/1k+ at 15:00 and was at 1/0/0 upgrades. You didn't scout his hidden third, and so (I'm assuming this is the reason) you delayed your third A TON when you could have had it probably 3-4 minutes earlier. When you pushed you had a 30 supply lead, ~180 to ~150, and neither of you had done any real economic damage to each other. The differences in Macro, and the big flaws in your strategies make it really hard to learn anything from that replay, other than macro is really important (and that Masters players don't have very good macro). I don't think you should post replays like that at all, they just add to the stupid back and forth debates about "You won because of X, not because of Mech", and fair enough, in that game, you did win because of macro.
@Breach_Hu
That was an awesome replay, highest level game I've seen of Mech posted. Everyone should check this game out, and please post more! Watch the other replays, they are much higher quality.
What other replays?
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with 2nd gas taken and sentry after stalker at 29 supply (terrible build in my opinion)
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Good guide. You could specify some details in how you fine-tune your siege line and slow advance and other important stuff. But what I'm wondering most is, how do you have the patience for 30+ minute long games every time?!?
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On March 24 2012 05:10 Lyyna wrote:
@Kaito : funny game.
I failed my build (so it's nothing about the protoss here) . I launched a 2nd factory instead of the starport and ended up in a midgame situation without banshee , so 0 harassment, and impossible for me to "easy win" midgame fights abusing cloak, and i got gas starved a lot. Also don't have my usual sensor tower at 3rd, so no position advantage for me
So in fact the only point of this replay would be to show why banshee are so good with mech and what happens when you don't make these
(and when i saw the fail 2Nd fact i basically gave up and stopped to follow my build, because i know i was knowing i was in a shitty position, unable to harass/deny expo, and unable to win most straight fight)
Especially in this game, the 1st banshee could have arrived in your base when your obs was reaching mine,with all your stalkers out of position . . .so it could have ripped your minerals line
Even if you made your usual starport on time your banshee doesn't reach his base until 8-9 minutes. He had 2 observers out by 7:15. I think this game as well as the other games shows that the better player usually wins. Kaito has some amazing macro and game sense, as well as a very crisp build. I don't necessarily even agree with the unit comp he had but he outplayed you anyway.
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In the next week, i will make a replay pack with around 20 replays with mech working/not working. i usually do hellion heavy style with 1factory tank and 1sp/rax for banshee ghost and timing push when i go for 3rd. i only camp againts stalker heavy compos.
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EPT
