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EDIT : With HOTS being out, The guide is no longer viable : the openings can't handle things like oracle or some MSC push, and the no-viking play has a really hard time versus tempests. It'll probably take time but i'll do a new guide for HOTS !
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@Crowned :
For me, at the end of the beta, at high master lvl :
-TvZ : 12 rax 15 gas, CC, fact -> reactor hellion / banshee (usually 4/2), 1 armory, 3rd cc, 2 fact, second armory when +1 attack complete
-TvT : 12 rax 15 gas CC fact -> marine tank viking into mech. Sometimes 1 rax CC 2 gas -> 111
-TvP : i don't have a staple mech opening for this one yet, but my choices are
12 rax 13 gas fact, continuous marines production, 1 hellion then tank, cc when possible : can handle everything, but have a hard time versus everything
12 rax 15 gas fact CC : same, slightly greedier
CC first or 1 rax FE into 2 rax before tech : fake bio play, allows for some good defense versus most agressive play with 2 rax + 1 fact
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We appreciate whatever you can come up with for HOTS stable mech TvP build. There are some very unique benefits that Terran gained in the matchup that comes to bear in the midgame and lategame.
* Speed medivac widow mine drops. 1/1/1 opening. Disrupts economy, possibility for great damage. Also, at this stage in metagame development, a little too predictable to guarantee damage worthwhile of the cost.
* More useful hellbat protection for the core siege tank line. Form a physical wall from chargelots that is replaceable and tanky. I've got some replays demonstrating the technique but I'm sure anyone skeptical can get easy practice with it.
* Widow mine protection for siege tank line. Clumped void rays die. Very useful after observer/oracle snipes from vikings and thors. Fills in some gaps that WoL mech had (even as HOTS opened up many more gaps)
New Disadvantages:
* Tempest (I didn't have enough exposure on Beta to feel out the vik-based responses). They snipe expensive stuff. From very great ranges.
* Oracle. Vision, snipe capability, and speed. More defense necessary at home (turrets) and with army (thors close enough to flanks
* Protoss 3base turtling to deathballs with tempest range. With mech, crushing the protoss apart from the uncaught WMD(Widow Mine Drop) is really off the table. From my experience, the terran can semi-reliably prevent a timely 4th base (7th and 8th gas) with siege positioning and hellion/WMD drop threats, but it can still form.
Summary: Turtly openings that support mech midgame play off a 2base start are developing. I don't think an efficient safe opening into double armory mech is too far off. Siege Tanks with both hellbat and widow mine support gained in midgame power. Lategame tempest, as you remark, fails before tempests since the initial build lacked vikings in favor of battlecruisers.
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Hello,
I do this strategy in TvP, however it doesn't seem to work, or I'm doing something terribly wrong.
Anyways, here's an example replay.
http://drop.sc/368641
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Hm, i don't know, i think (at least in this game )your main problem is a macro one : you do lack a lot of key units at some points, and the build was made in such a way that you get these key units right in time to deal with most threats at the right timing (for example, 4 thors to hold your 3rd, then adding tanks + ghost when fights scale increase, making thors worse because of their size, + banshee number always increasing for heavy support fire
A bit slow/innacurate with EMPs
A bit off in terms of positionning (for example, in front of your PF with your whole army, meaning your PF doesn't absord any damage)
I can check if there is a really big other factor if you have other replays
This is, overall, the great weakness of this play : you have litterally no room for mistakes. You can't afford to slip in terms of macro or micro, and your positionning has to be perfect.
edit : for anyone wondering, it is a WoL replay (thor with energy!)
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Okay, so what exactly do you mean by macro? It seems to me that I kept my money low and built my stuff at the right time.
Btw, here's another replay.
http://drop.sc/368643
Btw, I also do your TvT build (from the replay pack). It works pretty well, but what do you do when someone uses planetary fortress and turret to turtle while massing ravens... like this. http://drop.sc/368644
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TvP :
A few things : your first hellion should always be sent for scouting
In the last fight, you should have focus fired his immortal/colossi with your banshees/tanks. Also, you need to have scv to repair
You shouldn't left in this situation. You had 3 BCs about to pop, a lot of production, he has little zeal/colossus left, meaning
1) he can't kill your PF 3rd with all your scvs repairing
2) he's likely going to continue on the robo/zeal way, and BCs just destroy it obviously
One of the reason for which your money is low is because you skip a lot of SCVs whenever you are under pressure. It ends in a lower income, and also, you tend to mess with your number of prod facilities. Overall, the problem is that your macro isn't fluid . You also skip a lot of Banshees/ghost because you have too much factories compared to your income
What could help you is to practice a lot the build in singleplayer : it'll help you doing it under pressure by having all the patterns of it ready in your head
TvT :
The main problem is how hard he outexpanded you. In this scenario, once you spot his mass expand stylel, put hellions at every base, and use a handful o tanks/thors (3 thors destroy PFs kinda fast) to destroy most on the field
To fight this army, there is a lots of options : vikings, ghost, raven, thor, BC.. you can use any combination of these. The only important thing in the end is micro'ing against missile (pre-concave, and then kiting back until missiles run out of fuel) or splitting hardcore
If you want, you can try to reach me in game (Lyyna#896)
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My main question is- why did my army lose to his army? Seems to me that the position was about as good as it gets.
Another question I have is what time should I be getting my 3rd?
Also, how many factories should I have? When should I add more?
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On December 21 2013 10:07 SCRedditor wrote:
My main question is- why did my army lose to his army? Seems to me that the position was about as good as it gets.
Another question I have is what time should I be getting my 3rd?
Also, how many factories should I have? When should I add more?
I have to admit that, since i didn't play WoL for a year (switch to the HotS beta), i'm not really sure. A few things
-A bit slow on EMP/PDD
-Lack of focus fire on big units with tanks/banshee
-No repairing scv
I'll try to find if there is anything else, but it's been a long time since i last played that.. If you want, we maybe can try to start the replay before this fight and i'll see if i can do something
The 3rd is taken usually when your opponent takes his own, or if you feel that you can safely defend it : there is no clear timing, but usually it ends up being around 12-15 minutes
Usually, on 2 bases, you start with 2 fact, adding a third one when you switch to tank production. I stay on 1 reactor fact all game long, and the number of TL fact in the midgame is usually between 2 & 4 - but only add some when you start to float resources , even with the constant production of key units
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Okay, then when do I switch to tank production? Is it after 4 thors?
Also, when should I make more thors? Or is it just all tanks and only 4 thors?
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On December 22 2013 03:28 SCRedditor wrote:
Okay, then when do I switch to tank production? Is it after 4 thors?
Also, when should I make more thors? Or is it just all tanks and only 4 thors?
Usually, after 4 thors, you can switch to tanks. Make more thors if
-Air switch, and you don't have the time to get your own BC fleet
-Too open maps without possibilities to use tanks versus an opponent going heavy on zealots
-After a big fight, it's ok to make a bunch of thors, since they're more polyvalent and better in low numbers
Otherwise.. tanks
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A problem that I keep on having is that once I start adding battlecruisers, it makes my ground army much weaker and the battlecruisers don't seems to help much. Usually what happens is that his army will kill my entire ground army, leaving 3-4 battlecruisers in the air to finish off the opponents zealots/immortals/collosus. After this, the protoss simply warps in ~15 stalkers and kills the battlecruisers.
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Do you have any replay showing well this scenario?
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http://drop.sc/368725
I just played this game. This scenario happens almost every time I start making battlecruisers. Btw, I added you ingame, I think.
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In this game, your main problems were
-Very few ghosts, no cloak
-No hellions reproduction after the first big fight
So, the BCs didn't really matter : he was able to storm-carpet your ground, and his zealots were extremely efficient. Except if you can max quickly without them, you need to make hellions, as they are extremely good versus zealots, and you need more ghosts overall + cloak. It might be strange and it took me a while to realize, but you really need these hellions, even in the lategame, until you are able to max on gas units, and obviously after a big trade on 3 bases you won't be able to do so
Also, try to be active with your first banshees or hellions: you could have easily killed him around the 12-15 minutes mark kinda easily
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Lyyna, this TvP build/style has sweetened a large portion of my SC2 games vs Protoss and I just wanted to thank you for it, it always was a lot of fun!
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EPT
