EPT[G] Lyyna’s TvP : How to mech every protoss cry - Page 37
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MistSC2
Sweden583 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
I'm basically in a little Sc2 break, due to -Invested too much in the game during 2 years for relatively poor results (aka failing to qualify in GM last season even while being top 20 master the right day >>) -Balance issues (Plat-skilled protoss in GM ... TvZ becoming a pain in the ass...) -Diablo 3 being an awesome game, "drained" too much of my skills to allows me to go back easily on sc2 Due to all of this, i feel too much stress and not enough fun on SC2 these days, ending up in me not playing a lot last season, and i'll probably continuing this break for this one as well. What does this mean for me? I know that the main reason i'm lacking of motivation these days is the fact i always tried to do my best and win only with my own efforts (especially by creating all my builds and strats from scratch). The problem of this is that i put too much pressure on myself, constantly, since 2 years, so need that "rest time" to let the pressure goes down, allowing myself to come back at my best! What does this mean for the guide? Basically, The main things going to change are : -Asking me stuff : Well, since i'm not in game these days, it's hard to do it on battlenet. So basically, for every question, i suggest you to do it on facebook, pm on tl, or here in the topic. -My Replays : Well,i'll of course have hard time updating it with replays of myself, but that isn't a problem since there is already a lot of replays uploaded. -Others people replays: Well, to keep the guide up-to-date with "fresh" stuff, i'll do something simple : if you think you have an interesting replay of mech (vP to stay "in" the topic), submit it to me via tl's pm. If i think the replay is good enough,i'll -Put it in the replay section with a short description if it's a good game without any big "flaws" and that can be studied -Do a written analysis of it if the replay shows some errors with the style, allowing people to see "common" errors when it's not me who is playing the style, making it easier to understand Sorry again for the lack of update/news these days, and sorry for people i might disappoint with this post but well, i hope you'll understand that after stressing yourself so much to do your best for so long,you need to eliminate all that pressure, and the only way here is to take a break. And i'll come back, and mech them cry! Thanks for the reading, and don't worry, as i said,i'll not let the guide die. but to do so,i'll need your help, and your replays! So awake, Mech players,and show to all these protoss that they should still fear what a terran can do after 15 minutes in a game ! Mech them cry ! And then show it to the world! *evil laugh* | ||
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Snoodles
401 Posts
On June 21 2012 09:20 Lyyna wrote: Hi guys,some news of myself I'm basically in a little Sc2 break, due to -Invested too much in the game during 2 years for relatively poor results (aka failing to qualify in GM last season even while being top 20 master the right day >>) -Balance issues (Plat-skilled protoss in GM ... TvZ becoming a pain in the ass...) -Diablo 3 being an awesome game, "drained" too much of my skills to allows me to go back easily on sc2 Due to all of this, i feel too much stress and not enough fun on SC2 these days, ending up in me not playing a lot last season, and i'll probably continuing this break for this one as well. What does this mean for me? I know that the main reason i'm lacking of motivation these days is the fact i always tried to do my best and win only with my own efforts (especially by creating all my builds and strats from scratch). The problem of this is that i put too much pressure on myself, constantly, since 2 years, so need that "rest time" to let the pressure goes down, allowing myself to come back at my best! What does this mean for the guide? Basically, The main things going to change are : -Asking me stuff : Well, since i'm not in game these days, it's hard to do it on battlenet. So basically, for every question, i suggest you to do it on facebook, pm on tl, or here in the topic. -My Replays : Well,i'll of course have hard time updating it with replays of myself, but that isn't a problem since there is already a lot of replays uploaded. -Others people replays: Well, to keep the guide up-to-date with "fresh" stuff, i'll do something simple : if you think you have an interesting replay of mech (vP to stay "in" the topic), submit it to me via tl's pm. If i think the replay is good enough,i'll -Put it in the replay section with a short description if it's a good game without any big "flaws" and that can be studied -Do a written analysis of it if the replay shows some errors with the style, allowing people to see "common" errors when it's not me who is playing the style, making it easier to understand Sorry again for the lack of update/news these days, and sorry for people i might disappoint with this post but well, i hope you'll understand that after stressing yourself so much to do your best for so long,you need to eliminate all that pressure, and the only way here is to take a break. And i'll come back, and mech them cry! Thanks for the reading, and don't worry, as i said,i'll not let the guide die. but to do so,i'll need your help, and your replays! So awake, Mech players,and show to all these protoss that they should still fear what a terran can do after 15 minutes in a game ! Mech them cry ! And then show it to the world! *evil laugh* Cheer up. You're ahead of everyone else in mech terran, so when HoTs comes out you're going to be unstoppable. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On June 21 2012 23:46 Snoodles wrote: Cheer up. You're ahead of everyone else in mech terran, so when HoTs comes out you're going to be unstoppable. thanks ^^ Well, i don't think HOTS is going to improve mech overall . . . -Battlehellion is cool -Mines is a good idea,the problem is that,well, too much time to detonate,taking factory's production time, costing supply... -Warhound is basically the same thing as the tank, except the tank can do more damage to more targets while warhound is basically useless versus armoured-non mech stuff (hi zerg, hi marauder). So yeah, a mobile tank which is useless in 1.5 (zerg,and vT bio) matchups, and dont have the advantage of out-ranging every other units in the game So cool ideas , but basically doesn't solve any issues of the race (or of mech), in fact these new stuff are just exactly doing what our actual stuff is doing (warhound) or doing new stuff but in a terrible way (both warhound and mine). And the worst thing is when you look at other's races new stuff, basically their new units are taking care of current's races issues, and are fucking insane versus mech. So, i don't know .. i hope they change a lot of stuff before HOTS come out, else terran will be over | ||
Sennin
Belgium50 Posts
Hope you'll come back stronger and more powerfull then ever before. | ||
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happyft
United States470 Posts
Any suggestions? | ||
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Severus_
759 Posts
On June 22 2012 01:01 happyft wrote: One issue I had when going mech TvP is that the toss would be able to keep me contained on two base, especially on maps where colossus can cliff harass my main. I find it difficult to leap frog against protoss armies because it's (1) very slow and (2) you can't defend both your nat and your main cliff at the same time while trying to get a third. And it's not like you can punish him for leaving his colossus out by themselves because he has both forcefields and the more mobile army. In addition, if your nat ramp has a narrow choke, it's actually dangerous to leap frog since your army can get long... Any suggestions? Use your bancheeze to harass his colo when he tries to poke. Scout for 2base timings so you can build tanks if he is not doing a 2base colo timing build your tanks when your 3rd is starting you only need 1 tank in the early game. Dump rest of your res on thors,air,hellions,upgrades. Keep some bancheeze home so you can stop his harass and try to slip hellions or bancheeze to harass his base because he can't have his army on 2 places to defend your harass which is more powerfull than his and if he tries to split army just box yours and kill his army on your nat. Lyyna I'm sry to hear that in your honor i will give some of my mech replays and try to keep the thread alive till you come back. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
While I had a lot of success at first (end of season games) with 1rax cc gasgas opening I found it to be weak at the start of this season (people cheesing a lot to quickly get back to their normal points/mmr range) to a myriad of builds you don't have the time to adapt to. I consider myself to be pretty good at scouting; but when I'd scout the aggression (it would have initially looked like a FE build; either 1gas or 2gas with 2 on both geyser so I'd prepare to do the build) I just wouldn't be ble to get the defense necessary to hold. My method of adapting varied based on what their build was, but mostly came down to cutting all gas income and making more rax (I was on 2rax to begin with) and bunkers. I still think the build (the style + that opening of 1rax cc gasgas rax gasgas) is viable, especially in a tourney scenario where players are less likely to try to cheese, or if they show you nexus before scout leaves (still have to scout again to confirm not 4gate), but I don't consider it a safe build. http://drop.sc/202270 http://drop.sc/202267 So these replays show what I plan to use as my standard build for now. I consider it safe against everything protoss can do (except blink all-in, which just beats all 1rax cc openings) with proper scouting and control. The top replay is my first attempt at it, and the bottom my second; I obviously haven't refined the midgame order yet. Game 1 gets awkard quickly when I have my army not prepared for his attack (units not in right position relative to each other, tanks unsieged, etc). While part of that is my fault for not following his army movement the main problem imo was having late sensor towers. Game 2 is partially a reaction to game 1. It looked to me like I can afford a fast second armory, but I get it too quickly this game. I don't think I like getting banshee before thor. I'll probably just deprioritize cloak. The awkwardness of this game stems partially from the awkwardness of the map; I have a hard time figuring out building placement on entombed. The other big mistake was in underestimating my scv count: I had way too many for a long time. What I've learned recently that I can confidently share with you guys is that you can't constantly produce 3tanks, 1ghost, and 1 banshee on 3base gas income. With 6 fully saturated refineries you yield approximately 700 gas per 60 faster-sc2-game seconds. If you divide gas per sc2-time you find that the amount of gas per second to produce 3tank 1ghost 1banshee is 12.6, which exceeds the 3base gas income per second of 11.7. So to afford upgrades and sensor towers etc you can't be producing tanks from a third factory until after your 4th base is up. Additionally: 2 scvs mining 4 refineries gives an income of approximately 300 gas per minute, which supports constant thor and banshee production from 1fact and 1port respectively. The 300 gas mined during factory construction affords a port, armory, and second fact. The 300 gas mined during port/armory/fact production affords 2techlabs (fact/port) and a reactor (2nd fact) with 200 excess to afford a thor asap (or banshee and +1 something, dunno what to prioritize with this build yet). The 4 scvs who can instead mine minerals during this time yield collectively approximately yield 168 additional minerals per sc2-minute who in a vacuum will let you afford the 3rd cc at most 143 seconds faster than normal. 143 seconds of full mining from the 3rd base refineries yields approximately 272 gas, and you'd have mined approximately 90 less gas by not fully saturating each refinery prior to starting the command center relative to what you'd have mined if you had mined with saturation for a net gas profit of 182 gas (and much more mineral profit) relative to what you'd have mined if you had delayed the 3rd cc by mining gas with 3 scvs per refinery as soon as you constructed those refineries. Data collected emperically and supported by or from http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=140055 TL;DR mine gas with 2 workers per refinery until you start your 3rd cc. For those who have watched at least a few of the reps I've posted, I'd appreciate feedback on my take of the style. The most common errors I'm aware of are late or poor ghost production and not constant port production (typically prior to the first max). While I've had mostly success with this style I'm not convinced I'm necessarily doing it "right". My opponents never tax my multi-tasking the way they should, so I don't think I'm using all the tools in the lyyna style arsenal yet. If you notice patterns across my games of failings or ways I could be getting more out of my units or ways to react to or punish protoss more please tell me. I'm hoping I can eventually write out my definitive way to play the style for others to try to copy, but I'm not there yet. I have a long way yet to go with respect to refining my build and improving my understanding of the style. For example, I'm unsure about upgrade priority. My intent with 2 armories is to get double mech ups and then double air ups, but maybe double attack then double armour or air attack/mech armour then air armour/mech attack are better options; not sure. I dunno if I said this earlier in the thread but it seems to me like mech attack is important after all (in spite of what lyyna initially stated with the guide; and it seems in his most recent reps like lyyna has taken this part back anyway) to help thors fight air if nothing else. However I don't even know if armour is actually necessary or not (especially early on). If the game plays out such that I can't afford to use 2 armories, which upgrade should I prioritize? | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
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Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On June 22 2012 18:29 Nightmarjoo wrote: Me? Probably. I've had some shorter games where my opponent tried some all-in that I shat on and they left after, but those reflect the strength of scouting and the adaptability of whatever build order I was using rather than the viability of the mech style itself and aren't really relevant to this thread. I'm not going to say the style can't end games before 30 minutes because I haven't focused on trying to figure out how to do so as I want to practice playing endgame with this style. I'd say odds are high you can probably actually end a game sooner if you're really focused on it and your harass/skirmishes are all successful, though the end result is likely to be an awkward base trade. Typically I think if you're using the style you're going to have to get used to playing long games though. Because playing long games as terran is totally relaxing T_T This is one of the reasons why I hate TvT and meching in general - its too long. Terran is in no way a relaxing race to play when you hit high level, not that any race is, but terran just have a really fragile army in general that needs constant babysitting so they dont eat lead paint or some shit. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
The nice thing about mech though is that the army is much less fragile as a whole than is a lategame bio army. I don't notice a difference in game-length between my mech and bio play. If you want to end a game sooner you're welcome to try to do so, but I feel like playing without artificial rules like that gives the greatest chance of success. Winning a higher percent of long games is a better use of time than is losing a lot of short games imo. As for relaxing though; I think mech gives you more room to apply your smartness to each game rather than primarily focusing on doing whatever you're doing as fast as you possibly can. Speed certainly doesn't hurt, but if you want to go out of your way to avoid working hard I'm pretty sure mech is the way to go. | ||
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Rhuubarb
Australia102 Posts
He was doing an 7/8 marine drop in the main with 3 hellions running in the natural to open into a banshee to harass more while he expanded and made a macro CC, into Hellion/Tank/Viking (as needed) with a Raven and added a small amount of ghosts later. The composition was 60-70% hellions. Some of the games I have watched so far: (VODs in spoilers also) + Show Spoiler + Semis vs MVP.Lure: Wins on Ohana by doing a lot of damage with hellions and eventually grinding him down Finals vs CreatorPrime: Loses on Daybreak in a long macro game, was gaining an edge until not dealing with dts well which caused him to lose tanks, then seemed to panic when his 5th was being taken out and tried too hard to trap creators' army and only ended up with a pretty shit engagement which he lost. | ||
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ForumErik
Netherlands52 Posts
I'm a random player (only in Platinum) and I love to play Mech when I roll Terran. However I've been getting rolled by Blink Stalker openings whenever they appear. Here's a replay. http://drop.sc/210148 First match of today so it's not the best example of what I do, but here's some of my own analysis. ---- Standard 1-Rax FE into double gas. Some gaps in SCV production, could have had 1-2 more I think. I usually start cutting Marines early in favour of a reactor for Hellions, I did so too in this game. Is that a bad idea? Scan at 6:24 -> I see exactly what he's doing, but it's already too late to build up a proper bio-army to stop his push I whiff a bit on my production which leads to my inevitable defeat, but I don't think I would have had enough units to stop him fast enough had I produced properly. Or would I? Is there a way to stop a Blink all-in dead in its tracks? Should I have bought time somehow? Is my build sub-optimal? Thanks! :> EDIT: Woo Hack did a Mech play twice that tournament? Only caught the first one. Awesome :> | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On June 30 2012 13:13 Rhuubarb wrote: ST_Hack used Mech vP in some of the TSL4 Q9 KR3 games. He was doing an 7/8 marine drop in the main with 3 hellions running in the natural to open into a banshee to harass more while he expanded and made a macro CC, into Hellion/Tank/Viking (as needed) with a Raven and added a small amount of ghosts later. The composition was 60-70% hellions. Some of the games I have watched so far: (VODs in spoilers also) + Show Spoiler + Semis vs MVP.Lure: Wins on Ohana by doing a lot of damage with hellions and eventually grinding him down http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpihWQ6H4ZY&feature=g-all-u Finals vs CreatorPrime: Loses on Daybreak in a long macro game, was gaining an edge until not dealing with dts well which caused him to lose tanks, then seemed to panic when his 5th was being taken out and tried too hard to trap creators' army and only ended up with a pretty shit engagement which he lost. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i73iurtnB24&feature=g-all-u dont forget that he denies his strategy, buy building a raven and sniping observers. Imho it is a really well timed strategy by him people should look into this. | ||
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Rhuubarb
Australia102 Posts
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HGurryp
275 Posts
and what happens if the toss doesnt attack and turtle too, waiting for you push and after trade army and just warp 100 zealots ht whataever? | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3359 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On July 05 2012 09:39 HGurryp wrote: If the protoss mass expands what should i do? Still turtle or push? and what happens if the toss doesnt attack and turtle too, waiting for you push and after trade army and just warp 100 zealots ht whataever? Actually,if he tries to expand a lot, what you should do is -try to slow him a bit (banshees,hellions, ravens turrets,etc) -expand yourself -Get a good amount of macros CC Basically,it's all about getting these orbitals, and (and this answers your second question as well) abusing the fact your final army is way better than his. just play his game,waiting,expanding,macro'ing,then roll on him, destroying his deathball while loosing 50 supply at worst. | ||
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Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
how do you harass bases with cannons? hellions/banshees/ravens are bad. only nuke could be good but i dont have the gas for this expanding myself doesnt work cause im too spread out then if i dont want to loose my expansions to some blinkstalkers | ||
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