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On May 21 2012 22:00 Lyyna wrote:Update of the guide, added a lot of things. TvP lategame , and TvZ vod's delayed due to some encoding problems (probably rdy for tomorrow) Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 00:12 ZjiublingZ wrote:On May 19 2012 19:40 saaaa wrote:
but i like the fast cloak banshee because it's sometimes a really nice surprise fo the protoss for killing all his probes Yeah, that's actually sort of why I don't like it right now - let me explain. I just wanted to learn how all the Mech units operate in the match up really well, get a really good feeling for them, and win or lose the game based on my ability to use those units. I do think using the Startport, at least at some point, is better than forgoing it all together. It compliments Mech too well to not be worth it, and the eventual BC/Raven transition is the strongest army you can put together. But I just didn't want the Banshees (especially Cloak Banshee openings) skewing the results of my Mech army vs Protoss, if that makes sense? That makes sense Yeah. Your opening looks interesting. Hm, but is the bunker up in time for a 1 stalk 1 zeal poke? Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 13:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On May 19 2012 15:27 ZjiublingZ wrote:Anyone looking for a cool little opening without Banshees, here's something I have been working on - 1/1 Upgrade Mech opening. It's greedy but it can be safe to anything with good scouting and preparation (and quick mass repairing). thanks! awesome :D It looks like it's basically a cloak banshee opening just without the banshees. Instead you will have +1 armor at 9:20, which is when (or slightly after? or during?) a 6 gate attack hits. You get a stronger deathball faster, but do you think it's really worth sacrificing the banshees to keep protoss at home? Or maybe getting more tanks faster instead of 2 armories would allow you to get a third faster, and thus max out faster to sort of "make up" for the slower upgrades? Or do all these options work, and it's just preference? honestly im torn between what opening to use, haha (maybe i should learn 2 for different kinds of maps?) the ones i've been using so far is the 3-4 factory (i do 3 usually) fact gorapadong build ( reactor barracks expand into siege tanks + 2 reactor hellions, into Armory/third-base and starport or ghost academy depending on protoss' tech) and the cloak banshee opening lynna shows this different build in his second TvP video I wonder what the build is? Looks like reactor barracks expand into fact into fact, with tech lab first then reactor asap Though I didn't quite understand why lynna got BFH instead of siege mode first in that replay I also know gfever (high master KR) has had moderate success with this kind of ebay expand build (places ~3 turrets to zone out void rays and ideally warp prisms as well), going straight to siegetank/hellion without getting thors first. Then of course there is also the reactor hellion expand. I don't quite understand the pros/cons of each build; are some of these outdated? are some of these only good on some maps? does it not really matter? I know i might be asking a lot, but some basic help would be appreciated. I'm a bit stumped. (Oh, apparently there is also a build where you can go reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand; the first 2 expansions are in corners of the map, while the third one takes your natural, and it "works" at high master KR There's also the marauder/hellion expand+pressure opening into marine/tank/banshee push into +2armor/2PDD/marine-thor-banshee push with any left over tanks which also works at high master KR) Personally im using thorzain's one (from TSL3). Basically a naked rax - tl fact - tank - CC around 5 30. About the 1 rax react expo into 2 fact,thats basically an outdated build. Quite strong before BFH nerf and when protoss were getting late expo, but harder to do now. Basically all these builds have a different balance between economy, harass ability, safety, and follow-up possibilities. Basically, 111 expo (cloakshee, hellion drop, etc) are very safe and/or agressive, but delay eco really hard 1 rax reactor expo, 1 rax expo, etc, are eco-friendly, but are not very safe, and do not allows to put pressure really early Reactor hellion build allows for a good economy and harassment, but isnt really safe (really low unit count) and the follow-up depends of your hellion's control the thorzain's opening im using is relatively safe and eco-friendly, but do not allows to harass
As usual, thank you for responding ! I did not understand well the strengths of each build.
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This guide is amazing, but I was wondering if there was any sort of map specific strategies that you/someone could suggest? Since you had a Q/A added portion to the OP, I'm hoping maybe this could get answered by someone with some experience?
For example:
On split maps, the super late game strategy for mech is the same as it would be for bio (turtle behind PF into mass BC/ghost - ie MVP vs Squirtle). I'm wondering if there is an advantage to going mech in the early game on easily split maps (daybreak, Metro, metal) over going bio. Since they'll both be heading to the same late game, + Show Spoiler +I'm looking to play the late game of TvP, rather than have to end it early, and at this point I think the goal has to be to transition into that ghost/bc army
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I dont really have any map specific strategy. Im the kind of guy who like to have "general" strats, that can work on every map, and with minimal variations/adaptations to the opponent..
Basically the main thing that changes depending of the map is where/how you do expand in the lategame, but ill adress that in the VOD about lategame decision making.
Well, basically bio and mech both have good points regardless of the map . But i still prefer mech if i want to go into lategame, considering your army, from the start, is built to destroy everything late in the game. Also you can get a scarier army (3/0 BC with 3/3 ghosts supports is cool. 2/2 BCs with 3/1 tanks/thors/hellions, ravens and ghosts support is unbeatable).
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What openings do you prefer and use?
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One huge problem I have when I play mech in TvP is when the Protoss poke the outskirts of my army and then back off, poke again etc. Basically he maneuvers around my army, toast a small part of it with collosus, then as I move some tanks forward and siege up, he moves back again, then attack the outskirts from another angle. Only a few of my tanks are in range at the same time while all of his Colossus are in range when he choses to attack a part of my army.
Anyone have a solution to this?
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On May 27 2012 04:30 MockHamill wrote:
One huge problem I have when I play mech in TvP is when the Protoss poke the outskirts of my army and then back off, poke again etc. Basically he maneuvers around my army, toast a small part of it with collosus, then as I move some tanks forward and siege up, he moves back again, then attack the outskirts from another angle. Only a few of my tanks are in range at the same time while all of his Colossus are in range when he choses to attack a part of my army.
Anyone have a solution to this?
I think you may just be moving too slowly. If he's that colossi heavy, you should probably have a good number of banshee/viking/BC anyways, to stop him from being able to poke in so effectively, and to prevent him from just regenerating his shields. It should allow you to be able to move your army faster as well, since, with scans, you should be able to see how far away his army is, and be able to siege up in time without having to leap frog slowly. Reason being it means the rest of his [gateway] army will be smaller, and since you already have air units to deal with the colossi, your tanks aren't threatened as much. I may be wrong tho 
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On May 26 2012 06:59 saaaa wrote:
What openings do you prefer and use?
these days i'm starting again to 111 expo.definitely the safest possible thing. but well,basically every build is ok as long as you dont commit too hard to bio (for example, i used to open a lot with 2 rax, 1 year ago, going into marauder tank into mech
On May 27 2012 04:30 MockHamill wrote:
One huge problem I have when I play mech in TvP is when the Protoss poke the outskirts of my army and then back off, poke again etc. Basically he maneuvers around my army, toast a small part of it with collosus, then as I move some tanks forward and siege up, he moves back again, then attack the outskirts from another angle. Only a few of my tanks are in range at the same time while all of his Colossus are in range when he choses to attack a part of my army.
Anyone have a solution to this?
There is a few "keys" things to punish it
-Sensor towers : that's one of the point of staying in defense (so, in range of these ) : you can see where and when he'll try to poke, so you can move everything accordingly
-Ghosts : if he gets emp'd every time he moves too close,he'll have to be careful to not take "definitive" damage, and in terms of "trading damage", if he doesn't have shields,you win
-Tanks : high range high damage ,enough said i guess
-Strike cannons : Surprisingly, yeah, its a good antipoke ability as you can sometimes trap some units versus a non-careful/greedy protoss
-Air : with 4-5 Banshees,you can litterally desintegrate any colossus that come too close (especially since he'll not see these coming, imba cloak). Once you start to add BCs...i won countless times because my opponent tried to do some super gosu high micro lvl (rofl) poke, only to get his 8 colossus EMP'd/Yamato'd to death in seconds
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Hey
How to handle this sort of Push?
It is basically a zealot Stalker Sentry Push as u can see here (http://drop.sc/189193)
Please help me
Thanks in advance
LukasG
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On June 01 2012 02:28 LukasG wrote:
Hey
How to handle this sort of Push?
It is basically a zealot Stalker Sentry Push as u can see here (http://drop.sc/189193)
Please help me
Thanks in advance
LukasG
Basically,the problem is the build, and your bunker placement. 1 rax FE into mech means you only have marine for a long times especially if you rush cloakshee after it, and also, your bunker placement is good vZ (avoid surround) but not vP (easier for him to forcefield,less surface to repair)
also , new replays pack , not a lot of TvP but well..
http://www.mediafire.com/?wljntg9n87qv083
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What a great post!
Lots of information and an interesting stand-point considering the general consensus that is that Terran loses lategame vs Toss, and should finish it midgame or keep harassing.
Thank you for being such a sharing person!
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On June 01 2012 06:28 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 02:28 LukasG wrote:
Hey
How to handle this sort of Push?
It is basically a zealot Stalker Sentry Push as u can see here (http://drop.sc/189193)
Please help me
Thanks in advance
LukasG
Basically,the problem is the build, and your bunker placement. 1 rax FE into mech means you only have marine for a long times especially if you rush cloakshee after it, and also, your bunker placement is good vZ (avoid surround) but not vP (easier for him to forcefield,less surface to repair) also , new replays pack , not a lot of TvP but well.. http://www.mediafire.com/?wljntg9n87qv083
I'm really not sure why people think that a 1 Rax FE into tech is even remotely doable vs Protoss. Literally ANY pressure will kill you outright.
It's better if you just open with 1/1/1 expand or Reactor Expand. The latter is somewhat weak to Blink allins, but if you control/scout properly you can hold them. You certainly don't just die like you do with a 1 Rax FE into tech.
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On June 01 2012 06:57 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 06:28 Lyyna wrote:On June 01 2012 02:28 LukasG wrote:
Hey
How to handle this sort of Push?
It is basically a zealot Stalker Sentry Push as u can see here (http://drop.sc/189193)
Please help me
Thanks in advance
LukasG
Basically,the problem is the build, and your bunker placement. 1 rax FE into mech means you only have marine for a long times especially if you rush cloakshee after it, and also, your bunker placement is good vZ (avoid surround) but not vP (easier for him to forcefield,less surface to repair) also , new replays pack , not a lot of TvP but well.. http://www.mediafire.com/?wljntg9n87qv083 I'm really not sure why people think that a 1 Rax FE into tech is even remotely doable vs Protoss. Literally ANY pressure will kill you outright.
its doable on some maps, the "problem" is basically to be able to hide if you're going mech or bio. but well, some pros sometimes do 1 rax FE into cloakshee but that requires good simcity/scouting deny/specific maps
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ok thanks for ur answers :D
I´ll try doing reactor expand.
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In the replays i saw u get a lot of thors, why not tanks instead?
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On June 01 2012 15:49 LukasG wrote:
In the replays i saw u get a lot of thors, why not tanks instead?
because you can hold all kinds of different attacks with thors much easier. They have a high hp and you can mass repair them really easy. In fact, they are way stronger in small numbers than tanks.
The Thors in TvP mech are only for Observersniping, surviving the early midgame against all kind of early all-ins and to tank damage after that but the key damage dealer unit are tanks.
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Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956
Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
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On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote:Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
That was awesome. It proves my own theory that you need a health mix of thors and tanks to do well vs Protoss.
I loved the ghosts and raven/banshee mix in there as well.
Mech TvP definitely takes a good 5-unit combo and good micro to use them all, well.
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Basically, im getting more thors these days because
-i realized that stopping thors at 3 early game makes hard to hold some timings (especially 2 bases allin,for example "early" immortals/chargelots push). Also, more early thors allows to do some pushes to punish a overgreedy/too hard teching protoss (for example a toss who try to get an early 3rd + robo + phenix out of few gateways)
-Basically, in direct fights, having a 4-8 thors wall is really good. 6 seems to be a magic number here.
-Good "all-purpose" units , so having a good amount of these is really good (in fact,a bit like marines. good vs nearly everything) . Tanks are here for a special role (dealing damage, and "zoning" the protoss army).
-As saaa said, they're stronger in small numbers than tanks. 4 thors can handle a good amount of stuff,especially with repair,while, let's say, 8 tanks, can easily get taken out
@Nighmarjoo : im at school right now so cant watch replays,but sounds interesting :p
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On June 02 2012 12:33 Nightmarjoo wrote:Build works against top100 gm on NA, even when done poorly: http://drop.sc/189956Thors are better than thanks. Higher hp and dps than tanks per supply and per cost and can kill air; but tanks have range/splash that helps kill zlots/ht.
The problem with these kind of builds is that people don't see why they won. Your win was because of the 15 probe kills (thanks to late robo), not because mech is viable.
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how many tanks to build before switching to thor viking ghost?
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EPT
