EPT[G] Lyyna’s TvP : How to mech every protoss cry - Page 34
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On May 14 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote: No offense, but this thread is FULL of people 'explaining' things about Mech TvP without actually saying anything meaningful, or helping anybody improve or understand Mech vs P at all. It's like what Day9 talked about, people are saying things that don't really mean anything in Starcarft. So I will try and start a real discussion here about Mech vs P. Ghost/Mech vs Pure Mech. Here we go!!!! I think we should be A LOT more specific about the strengths and weaknesses. I understand you will have less Fact in the mid-game when going Ghost/Mech, but what does this mean? What is the strength/weakness of this position? Your upgrades will be slower, but you have the extra burst damage of EMP/Snipe templar. In what SPECIFIC scenarios is having the Ghosts better than the upgrades? Does it transition better to the late game? Is it better for timing attacks or aggressiveness in general? Or better at playing defensively? Or does it get even more specific than that? Finally, what can a Meching player look for at ~10-13 (or earlier if possible) minutes to find out which style will be superior (if one really is)? WHY? In my experience, I often find myself wishing I had gone for the other route, but not sure how I can know earlier on which is better at the time. I find Ghosts are better against immortal heavy pushes, but worse against Colossus heavy ones. It can be hard to tell which one he is going for by the time I have committed to my tech choice, and one easily transitions into the other. EMP does much more damage against Stalkers than Zealots, but once again, it is very hard for me to tell which unit he is going to be making more of. As of now, I just go Pure Mech if I scout Colossus Tech before Templar Tech, but I can't really give a solid argument for why that is 100% the correct decision to make. My thought process is basically: EMP + Snipe is good against Templar and Archons, so it's worth having them in that scenario. I'm just beginning to play mech in TvP but i go with both styles double upgrades: mech+ghosts and pure mech with Air "support". The difference ist in my opinion just if i go Ghost+mech i exchange one factory for one rax, which making ghosts. And i can support all my production facilities quite nicely. In fact i don't understand why everyone say that you can not go double upgrades if you go ghosts. If i go BC's i build 1 additonal Starport up to 2 at the ~ 17:30 until then i get a huge number of tanks+hellions+maybe 4 thors and banshees. If i get my 4/5 i start to add ghosts because u will need them in the lategame. In conclusion i like the Pure Mech+Air Army into later BC's more but i don't have the big experience till now . | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On May 17 2012 00:24 MockHamill wrote: How do you actually micro mech armies? When I try out Thor/Tank/Hellions in the unit tester versus Protoss armies the mech army either loses or come out just slightly ahead. Am I missing something? How do you manage to really crush Protoss late game armies with your mech army? Please explain the micro of this in detail. Just Thor/Tank/Hellion? Against what army? The micro is, obviously, dependent on what you are facing. Thor/Tank/Hellion is really a 2 base Army so I guess I will address it as if you are facing a potential 2 base Protoss army... (Ask clearer or more specific questions next time, Mech is very undefined so there isn't some standard progression of a game I can assume you are talking about). Against a 2 base Toss you will basically be facing 3 things, Immortal + Gateway heavy pushes. Colossus pushes with less Gateway support. And Archon/Chargelot compositions. Immortal + Gateway push - Engage with Hellions as close as possible to the 14 range of Tanks, Focus fire Immortals with your Hellions as you kite the army through the siege line. #1 Priority for Tanks is Shieldless Immortals, then the biggest clumps of Gateway units, I prefer Zealots though I honestly can't say which is "better" because you do get Bonus Damage vs Stalkers. Once they are close and have engaged you, Thors in front, Hellions behind, and Tanks behind them. Focus fire Shieldless Immortals still, and that's about it. Colossus push with less gateway support - Reallly bad against Mech IMO, simply because Siege Tanks > Colossus in a straight up fight. I just focus fire Colossus with my Siege Tanks, does a ton of damage because Colossus stand over Gateway units. Make sure to maximize the range difference between Colossus and Siege Tanks by keeping vision of the full 14 range - keep your Hellions within 5 range of Tanks to stay safe from Colossus and grant full vision. If you're tanks are clumped up and you only have 1-2 range more than him because of a lack of vision, then it becomes a thousand times scarier. Archon + Chargelot compositions - Scary if you are caught in a bad position, EZ if you aren't. Just force the Charge with Hellions at the ~14 range, focus fire Zealots, hide the Hellions behind Thors, ignore Archons completely. They do 1 more DPS than Zealots lol, and their Splash does nothing to Thor/Tank and very little to Hellion, and they stay 3 range away so they don't force Siege Tanks to splash you. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
Not necessarily relevant to the replay, but I've learned some things from trying out the build: After some initial Banshee harass they should be kept close to him until a 3rd base by Protoss is confirmed by Hellions. A great way to lose to a 2base Immortal all-in is to have your Banshees on wrong side of the map when it hits. I think mech attack upgrades are only necessary if you're going to be using Thors to fight Protoss' air units. Just try to judge whether you're going to be able to afford Ravens if Protoss goes air based on how much damage you're doing with your harass and on how effectively you defend his aggression. If Protoss is heavy Zealot and/or Colossus you can get more out of your units by positioning your Hellions in sort of a V with the vertex facing Protoss. His Zealots will block each other clumping and wasting Charge by targetting the front-most Hellion(s), and his Colossi will waste shots and splash the same way. The original Lyyna unit ratios seem solid, i.e. 8-12 Tanks, 5-6 Banshees, 1-2 Ravens, 3-4 Thors, ~10 Marines 7+ Ghosts, and the rest of supply in Hellion before BC. I'd say 70 SCVs are the minimum you should have, and 80 the max. More SCVs means quicker OCs for smoother supply suiciding. Unless the map is cramped for space your money should never really get high until BCs are part of your max. Should be constantly losing and remaking Hellion supply. After your first max you can suicide all of your Marines and if your OC count is already on its way to being high you can suicide SCVs too and start adding BCs. At this time you're also making turrets, sensor towers, more OCs, maybe some extra PFs, CCs to float to expos, double air ups, BC and Raven research, and Ghost Academies and Nukes. You never really run out of things to spend your money on until you have 9-12 BCs, 4+ Thors, ~16 Ghosts, and ~6 Ravens (and as many OCs as you can fit (at least 13) + proper defense buildings). You can cut your income by muling his expos if your minerals do seem to be getting too high anyway. That's how I've come to understand the build anyway. Its viability is limited only by the user's multi-task. There are always more times and places to be harassing with Hellion, Banshee, Nuke, and later Raven and Yamato. Watch Supernova vs Genius on Daybreak in last code S and tell me he couldn't pull this build off with that level of multi-tasking. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10372 Posts
On May 16 2012 20:13 Lyyna wrote: About the Ghostless mech / GhostMech discussion -Infrastructure : Ghost mech will usually have a 1/3/1 with 1 armory on 2/3 bases ( i usually dont really add any production facilities on 3 bases, as you should use all your ressources with your really cost heavy units). Ghostless will usually have 1/5/1. What does this mean? Basically, the ghostless will have a bigger number of units, earlier, and you dont rely on energy or anything : these units can instantly fight when they get on the field. You'll especially have a huge number of hellions, and you can sacrifice them to do economic or positional damage (forcing his army to move where you want him to move). The bigger amount of mech units allows you to trade with him without any big problem (consider you can get like 8 hellions and 3 thors every minute . . ). Ghostmech will basically have less units, and will not aim at "trading" : with ghostmech , you aim at FUCKING TOTALLY ANNIHILATING his whole army with nearly no loss from your side. You cant really allows to loose everything as you'll have less facilities to reprod, and you also need time to get energy on ghosts. But as a side effect of less production , you can have more spare ressources to get a better lategame installation ( MOAR CC ) -Uppgrade Easy here. Ghostmech will only have 1 armory (at least until the BC transition), Ghostless will have 2. Mech is cool due to the fact that, even if getting double uppgrades makes your army insanely godlike ( and allows you to not have to choose between armor and damage), single uppgrade is totally fine too. -Combat abilities Ghostless mech can usually fight most protoss armies well. It'll trade really well especially with the "standard" (but now a bit old school ) chargelot/stalker/colossus midgame ball : You'll loose a lots of hellions but you can replenish them fast, while increasing the size of your core thors/tanks army. The problem comes when he's getting heavy archon/immortal/HT. Colossus and air too. All these units are relying a lot of energy/shields, and they can trade relatively well with your ghostless ball (i said RELATIVELY. contrary to what people say, for example a big immortal army will not instantly win versus your mech army, especially due to your shitload of hellions protecting your core units). GhostMech will basically struggle because of the fact that you have to invest resources in ghost tech early in the game, meaning your army will not be as big as a ghostless one, but you'll basically have an instant ~~40% hp damage burst on his whole army as soon as you get a critical mass of ghosts (i personally think the ghost mech start to be more combat-effective once you get 4 ghosts). So, to sum-up Ghostmech = more for defensive style -Weaker Until you get that critical ghost mass -Cant really trade due to the lack of production -Later uppgrades -More spare ressources due to less production - Allows for "bigger" lategame -Insanely strong once you get your ghosts count -you dont really fear any protoss composition So basically, defensive lategame economic play, in a few words GhostLess -Lots of production early -Can Trade units (and sacrifice hellions for harass) -Double uppgrades allows you to continue to win fights even in "late midgame" -Allows to be agressive -Less spare ressources -Weaker to some protoss shield/spell heavy army -Start to loose its strength in lategame, once having the good composition to totally crush him become more important than being to just "trade well" So basically , More midgame oriented play ,allowing you to be more agressive @Yoshi : ZjiublingZ is fucking good. In fact, for both of you, can i add the question and the answer to the guide? Wow that was really fucking helpful. Thanks a lot! I didn't think of one style being more defensive than the other. I've been sending hellions sorta randomly without understanding these things. And yes ofc, you can include it ^^ You should probably include your own post as well heheh On May 17 2012 05:35 ZjiublingZ wrote: @Lynna I would love for you to add my input. I've been playing Mech and following this thread (and I helped convince you to make this thread in the first place) so I'd be honored to contribute to it! Just Thor/Tank/Hellion? Against what army? The micro is, obviously, dependent on what you are facing. Thor/Tank/Hellion is really a 2 base Army so I guess I will address it as if you are facing a potential 2 base Protoss army... (Ask clearer or more specific questions next time, Mech is very undefined so there isn't some standard progression of a game I can assume you are talking about). Against a 2 base Toss you will basically be facing 3 things, Immortal + Gateway heavy pushes. Colossus pushes with less Gateway support. And Archon/Chargelot compositions. Immortal + Gateway push - Engage with Hellions as close as possible to the 14 range of Tanks, Focus fire Immortals with your Hellions as you kite the army through the siege line. #1 Priority for Tanks is Shieldless Immortals, then the biggest clumps of Gateway units, I prefer Zealots though I honestly can't say which is "better" because you do get Bonus Damage vs Stalkers. Once they are close and have engaged you, Thors in front, Hellions behind, and Tanks behind them. Focus fire Shieldless Immortals still, and that's about it. Colossus push with less gateway support - Reallly bad against Mech IMO, simply because Siege Tanks > Colossus in a straight up fight. I just focus fire Colossus with my Siege Tanks, does a ton of damage because Colossus stand over Gateway units. Make sure to maximize the range difference between Colossus and Siege Tanks by keeping vision of the full 14 range - keep your Hellions within 5 range of Tanks to stay safe from Colossus and grant full vision. If you're tanks are clumped up and you only have 1-2 range more than him because of a lack of vision, then it becomes a thousand times scarier. Archon + Chargelot compositions - Scary if you are caught in a bad position, EZ if you aren't. Just force the Charge with Hellions at the ~14 range, focus fire Zealots, hide the Hellions behind Thors, ignore Archons completely. They do 1 more DPS than Zealots lol, and their Splash does nothing to Thor/Tank and very little to Hellion, and they stay 3 range away so they don't force Siege Tanks to splash you. This is helpful as well, thanks! :D I often lose to colossi gateway armies (or at least, lose inefficiently aka trading armies), but now that I think of it, I don't usually have full range and my hellions are micro'd quite poorly against his chargelots. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
go siege+tanks before thor? | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On May 18 2012 04:33 saaaa wrote: How do you defend one base attacks from the protoss? go siege+tanks before thor? It depends on you're opening. With the Cloak Banshee opening, just scouting, bunkers, and Cloak Banshees. Cloak Banshees auto-win against most 1 base all ins right off the bat. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
ghosts heavily counter the two counters to mech. stalkers and immortals. because stalkers have 80 health and 80 shields EMP can cause alot of wreck for stalker compositions. A protoss can attempt to go 200food of stalkers and blink around the map avoiding the mech attacking the terran everywhere, but by this stage of the game the terran will be 3/3 mech vs 3/3/3 stalkers and stalkers only gain +1 attack per upgrade, where as thors and tanks get tons more damage per upgrade. Heck 30 upgraded hellions with their splash also probably will not fare too badly against 30 stalkers considering the splash of hellions combined with tanks and then thors. against blink stalkers a terran wants to keep his tanks unsieged. Infact a terran pretty much never wants to siege his tanks until the end of the final battle while doing that final death-siege-push. unsieged tanks have 7range and deal very respectable damage and shred stalkers all on their own. upgraded stalkers will lose to unsieged tanks/hellions easily considering the splash of the hellions, the low damage of stalkers, and the high damage of tanks and honestly when the protoss has zealots in his mix, its even more important to not siege up your tanks because their high damage and 7range combined with blue hellion splash quickly deals with the zealots and then after that unsieged tanks shred the stalkers badly tanks dont even need to siege up to beat stalkers. if a terran plays like this the mobility of blink is not too much of an advantage considering stalkers are so piss-weak against tank/hellion and tanks move as fast as unstimmed bio the protoss can blink everywhere and do some damage, but as long as the terran is spread nicely his slow moving thors and tanks with 7range will eventually reach the area and shred the stalkers and the toss will lose more than the terran the biggest counter to mech on paper for toss is IMMORTALS, assuming the terran doesnt get ghosts. archons are very tanky against hellions and tanks and thors which is the reason a terran needs a few ghosts if the protoss is going for lots of immortals. other than that, the protoss needs mothership/carriers/archons/collossi/immortal mix to really beat endgame mech of terran and terran can match that and compete against that if he adds in upgraded vikings / bc's | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On May 18 2012 05:15 roymarthyup wrote: im confident that the future of TvP will be heavily bio-less compositions with upgraded mech hellion/tank with ghosts and maybe 2-3 thors (because their damage output is so high, they are weak to feedback but if you just have 1-2 and they get feedbacked who cares repair them between fights) ghosts heavily counter the two counters to mech. stalkers and immortals. because stalkers have 80 health and 80 shields EMP can cause alot of wreck for stalker compositions. A protoss can attempt to go 200food of stalkers and blink around the map avoiding the mech attacking the terran everywhere, but by this stage of the game the terran will be 3/3 mech vs 3/3/3 stalkers and stalkers only gain +1 attack per upgrade, where as thors and tanks get tons more damage per upgrade. Heck 30 upgraded hellions with their splash also probably will not fare too badly against 30 stalkers considering the splash of hellions combined with tanks and then thors. against blink stalkers a terran wants to keep his tanks unsieged. Infact a terran pretty much never wants to siege his tanks until the end of the final battle while doing that final death-siege-push. unsieged tanks have 7range and deal very respectable damage and shred stalkers all on their own. upgraded stalkers will lose to unsieged tanks/hellions easily considering the splash of the hellions, the low damage of stalkers, and the high damage of tanks and honestly when the protoss has zealots in his mix, its even more important to not siege up your tanks because their high damage and 7range combined with blue hellion splash quickly deals with the zealots and then after that unsieged tanks shred the stalkers badly tanks dont even need to siege up to beat stalkers. if a terran plays like this the mobility of blink is not too much of an advantage considering stalkers are so piss-weak against tank/hellion and tanks move as fast as unstimmed bio the protoss can blink everywhere and do some damage, but as long as the terran is spread nicely his slow moving thors and tanks with 7range will eventually reach the area and shred the stalkers and the toss will lose more than the terran the biggest counter to mech on paper for toss is IMMORTALS, assuming the terran doesnt get ghosts. archons are very tanky against hellions and tanks and thors which is the reason a terran needs a few ghosts if the protoss is going for lots of immortals. other than that, the protoss needs mothership/carriers/archons/collossi/immortal mix to really beat endgame mech of terran and terran can match that and compete against that if he adds in upgraded vikings / bc's Yo, can we just abolish the word Counter in this thread altogether? It does nothing for discussion and just avoids explaining why something is good/bad. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
Adding mech is only a current reaction to Pro Protoss players being greedy. | ||
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On May 18 2012 04:51 ZjiublingZ wrote: It depends on you're opening. With the Cloak Banshee opening, just scouting, bunkers, and Cloak Banshees. Cloak Banshees auto-win against most 1 base all ins right off the bat. What opening is best for TvP? I do a 1Rax Fe with Fast Depot-Wall in 1/1/1 Cloak Banshee but i feel it's not the best opening because the most 1base attacks are hard to hold (but possible with instant tanks if the 1base is scouted). What openings do you use? | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
I need to try it out more before I can say it's safe, but I like the opening I used in the rep I posted above. Standard gas timing fact hellion cc armory gas techlab thor port banshee cloak thor (reactor on rax is in there somewhere). I'm delaying my cc to get the hellion out so that I can scout everything really well. Getting gas and the fact makes my opponent think it's not a FE build, so they aren't likely to choose a build that can really take advantage of my small unit count. If they try to, I'll scout it with hellion. The first thor comes out to hold any delayed aggression or early 2base aggression. The banshee comes out as is with all proper lyyna play for harass or defense, as is needed. The second thor is delayed with the port, but that's ok since the first one can't die if you repair it. From there it's standard lyyna play. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
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Starshaped
Sweden575 Posts
User was warned for rule #1 | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On May 19 2012 19:40 saaaa wrote: but i like the fast cloak banshee because it's sometimes a really nice surprise fo the protoss for killing all his probes Yeah, that's actually sort of why I don't like it right now - let me explain. I just wanted to learn how all the Mech units operate in the match up really well, get a really good feeling for them, and win or lose the game based on my ability to use those units. I do think using the Startport, at least at some point, is better than forgoing it all together. It compliments Mech too well to not be worth it, and the eventual BC/Raven transition is the strongest army you can put together. But I just didn't want the Banshees (especially Cloak Banshee openings) skewing the results of my Mech army vs Protoss, if that makes sense? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10372 Posts
On May 19 2012 15:27 ZjiublingZ wrote: Anyone looking for a cool little opening without Banshees, here's something I have been working on - 1/1 Upgrade Mech opening. It's greedy but it can be safe to anything with good scouting and preparation (and quick mass repairing). thanks! awesome :D It looks like it's basically a cloak banshee opening just without the banshees. Instead you will have +1 armor at 9:20, which is when (or slightly after? or during?) a 6 gate attack hits. You get a stronger deathball faster, but do you think it's really worth sacrificing the banshees to keep protoss at home? Or maybe getting more tanks faster instead of 2 armories would allow you to get a third faster, and thus max out faster to sort of "make up" for the slower upgrades? Or do all these options work, and it's just preference? honestly im torn between what opening to use, haha (maybe i should learn 2 for different kinds of maps?) the ones i've been using so far is the 3-4 factory (i do 3 usually) fact gorapadong build ( reactor barracks expand into siege tanks + 2 reactor hellions, into Armory/third-base and starport or ghost academy depending on protoss' tech) and the cloak banshee opening lynna shows this different build in his second TvP video I wonder what the build is? Looks like reactor barracks expand into fact into fact, with tech lab first then reactor asap Though I didn't quite understand why lynna got BFH instead of siege mode first in that replay I also know gfever (high master KR) has had moderate success with this kind of ebay expand build (places ~3 turrets to zone out void rays and ideally warp prisms as well), going straight to siegetank/hellion without getting thors first. Then of course there is also the reactor hellion expand. I don't quite understand the pros/cons of each build; are some of these outdated? are some of these only good on some maps? does it not really matter? I know i might be asking a lot, but some basic help would be appreciated. I'm a bit stumped. (Oh, apparently there is also a build where you can go reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand; the first 2 expansions are in corners of the map, while the third one takes your natural, and it "works" at high master KR There's also the marauder/hellion expand+pressure opening into marine/tank/banshee push into +2armor/2PDD/marine-thor-banshee push with any left over tanks which also works at high master KR) | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On May 20 2012 00:12 ZjiublingZ wrote: Yeah, that's actually sort of why I don't like it right now - let me explain. I just wanted to learn how all the Mech units operate in the match up really well, get a really good feeling for them, and win or lose the game based on my ability to use those units. I do think using the Startport, at least at some point, is better than forgoing it all together. It compliments Mech too well to not be worth it, and the eventual BC/Raven transition is the strongest army you can put together. But I just didn't want the Banshees (especially Cloak Banshee openings) skewing the results of my Mech army vs Protoss, if that makes sense? That makes sense Yeah. Your opening looks interesting. Hm, but is the bunker up in time for a 1 stalk 1 zeal poke? On May 20 2012 13:31 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: thanks! awesome :D It looks like it's basically a cloak banshee opening just without the banshees. Instead you will have +1 armor at 9:20, which is when (or slightly after? or during?) a 6 gate attack hits. You get a stronger deathball faster, but do you think it's really worth sacrificing the banshees to keep protoss at home? Or maybe getting more tanks faster instead of 2 armories would allow you to get a third faster, and thus max out faster to sort of "make up" for the slower upgrades? Or do all these options work, and it's just preference? honestly im torn between what opening to use, haha (maybe i should learn 2 for different kinds of maps?) the ones i've been using so far is the 3-4 factory (i do 3 usually) fact gorapadong build ( reactor barracks expand into siege tanks + 2 reactor hellions, into Armory/third-base and starport or ghost academy depending on protoss' tech) and the cloak banshee opening lynna shows this different build in his second TvP video I wonder what the build is? Looks like reactor barracks expand into fact into fact, with tech lab first then reactor asap Though I didn't quite understand why lynna got BFH instead of siege mode first in that replay I also know gfever (high master KR) has had moderate success with this kind of ebay expand build (places ~3 turrets to zone out void rays and ideally warp prisms as well), going straight to siegetank/hellion without getting thors first. Then of course there is also the reactor hellion expand. I don't quite understand the pros/cons of each build; are some of these outdated? are some of these only good on some maps? does it not really matter? I know i might be asking a lot, but some basic help would be appreciated. I'm a bit stumped. (Oh, apparently there is also a build where you can go reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand into reactor hellion expand; the first 2 expansions are in corners of the map, while the third one takes your natural, and it "works" at high master KR There's also the marauder/hellion expand+pressure opening into marine/tank/banshee push into +2armor/2PDD/marine-thor-banshee push with any left over tanks which also works at high master KR) Personally im using thorzain's one (from TSL3). Basically a naked rax - tl fact - tank - CC around 5 30. About the 1 rax react expo into 2 fact,thats basically an outdated build. Quite strong before BFH nerf and when protoss were getting late expo, but harder to do now. Basically all these builds have a different balance between economy, harass ability, safety, and follow-up possibilities. Basically, 111 expo (cloakshee, hellion drop, etc) are very safe and/or agressive, but delay eco really hard 1 rax reactor expo, 1 rax expo, etc, are eco-friendly, but are not very safe, and do not allows to put pressure really early Reactor hellion build allows for a good economy and harassment, but isnt really safe (really low unit count) and the follow-up depends of your hellion's control the thorzain's opening im using is relatively safe and eco-friendly, but do not allows to harass | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
That said the Protoss army has just as much power, better mobility and much faster remax. So TvP is still stacked in Protoss favor in the late game. Still until Blizzard fixes this mech is the least bad choice in TvP. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10372 Posts
On May 21 2012 22:00 Lyyna wrote: Update of the guide, added a lot of things. TvP lategame , and TvZ vod's delayed due to some encoding problems (probably rdy for tomorrow) That makes sense Yeah. Your opening looks interesting. Hm, but is the bunker up in time for a 1 stalk 1 zeal poke? Personally im using thorzain's one (from TSL3). Basically a naked rax - tl fact - tank - CC around 5 30. About the 1 rax react expo into 2 fact,thats basically an outdated build. Quite strong before BFH nerf and when protoss were getting late expo, but harder to do now. Basically all these builds have a different balance between economy, harass ability, safety, and follow-up possibilities. Basically, 111 expo (cloakshee, hellion drop, etc) are very safe and/or agressive, but delay eco really hard 1 rax reactor expo, 1 rax expo, etc, are eco-friendly, but are not very safe, and do not allows to put pressure really early Reactor hellion build allows for a good economy and harassment, but isnt really safe (really low unit count) and the follow-up depends of your hellion's control the thorzain's opening im using is relatively safe and eco-friendly, but do not allows to harass As usual, thank you for responding ! | ||
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