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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On May 09 2012 02:18 zmansman17 wrote: Great evidence. I think this one game may prove that Mech not only works in TvP, but works at the highest levels.. You're right! Perhaps we will see him use it in GSL soon. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 09 2012 03:08 crocodile wrote: You're right! Perhaps we will see him use it in GSL soon. I'm not positive, but I think he's being sarcastic. You can't base it off one game is what he's implying. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On May 09 2012 04:27 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'm not positive, but I think he's being sarcastic. You can't base it off one game is what he's implying. I, too, was being sarcastic. Nobody ever implied that you can base it off one game, so refuting that argument is pointless. It's a straw man. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On May 09 2012 05:23 crocodile wrote: I, too, was being sarcastic. Nobody ever implied that you can base it off one game, so refuting that argument is pointless. It's a straw man. Sarcasm doesn't display well on the internet, I apologize. Carry on, you mechers. | ||
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icclown
Denmark270 Posts
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saaaa
Germany419 Posts
On May 08 2012 21:21 Lyyna wrote: @saaaa : Thanks Basically, Both have advantages and problems. By going ghostless, you'll be able to get really early to a high number of factories, and you'll have a shitload of hellions roaming on the map. You'll be able to get early double upp if you want as well, and your army will be strong versus a standard gate/colossus midgame ball. GhostMech allows you (due to the added damage of ghosts) and forces (due to the cost) to play with less factories, and your army will be better versus "anti-mech" armies of HT, immortals,archons,etc, but you'll not be able to send hellions on the whole map to harass because you'll not have enough of them to sacrifice these. A bit more "eco-friendly" as you'll produce from less factories too Anyway you should start to transition to the late game army (so basically,adding starports and BC) when you get ur 4th OR if you are contained on 3 bases and maxed. To survive early midgame, i'll get 3 or 4 thors. Basically the number depends of how safe i feel : if i feel he's going to be agressive, one more thor is great to hold attack, while 1.5 tank isn't going to make a huge difference Yeah , you need to keep your units together. What makes your army strong is the huge synergy between all of these units. So spreading them mean that you'll not be able to exploit this,and you'll not be able to exploit the "snowball" potential of your mech army. And this is why sensor towers and "maphack" macro orbitals are important : to allows you to move everything while avoiding backstabs About streaming, as i was streaming from school , im basically unable to respect my schedules, and there is also others problems that i have to deal with when i stay later at school (forces me to go home late in a not-that-safe city isn't something i want to do everyday) And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts? | ||
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wESty_terra
Germany11 Posts
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On May 13 2012 00:56 saaaa wrote: And what is your opinion the more powerful style? with or without ghosts? They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts). | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On May 14 2012 06:35 crocodile wrote: They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts). I don't agree. Well I do agree with your assessment but you are basically playing with the hope that the protoss player is unfamiliar with the style if you don't include ghosts. Ghosts are a must to beat a strong anti-mech composition. You can choose to play without ghost and still win, but you are basically winning because of the protoss lack of experience against your army composition. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On May 14 2012 06:35 crocodile wrote: They each have their strengths. With ghosts will be safer, but your infrastructure will be weaker (less factories, less upgrades, etc). Without ghosts, you'll be able to go double armory and get up to 5 factories on 3 bases quite quickly, then add ghosts later if they are needed. Sometimes you don't need ghosts that badly (against Protosses who don't realize you can build units other than Colossi, Templar, and Chargelots in TvP you don't need ghosts). No offense, but this thread is FULL of people 'explaining' things about Mech TvP without actually saying anything meaningful, or helping anybody improve or understand Mech vs P at all. It's like what Day9 talked about, people are saying things that don't really mean anything in Starcarft. So I will try and start a real discussion here about Mech vs P. Ghost/Mech vs Pure Mech. Here we go!!!! I think we should be A LOT more specific about the strengths and weaknesses. I understand you will have less Fact in the mid-game when going Ghost/Mech, but what does this mean? What is the strength/weakness of this position? Your upgrades will be slower, but you have the extra burst damage of EMP/Snipe templar. In what SPECIFIC scenarios is having the Ghosts better than the upgrades? Does it transition better to the late game? Is it better for timing attacks or aggressiveness in general? Or better at playing defensively? Or does it get even more specific than that? Finally, what can a Meching player look for at ~10-13 (or earlier if possible) minutes to find out which style will be superior (if one really is)? WHY? In my experience, I often find myself wishing I had gone for the other route, but not sure how I can know earlier on which is better at the time. I find Ghosts are better against immortal heavy pushes, but worse against Colossus heavy ones. It can be hard to tell which one he is going for by the time I have committed to my tech choice, and one easily transitions into the other. EMP does much more damage against Stalkers than Zealots, but once again, it is very hard for me to tell which unit he is going to be making more of. As of now, I just go Pure Mech if I scout Colossus Tech before Templar Tech, but I can't really give a solid argument for why that is 100% the correct decision to make. My thought process is basically: EMP + Snipe is good against Templar and Archons, so it's worth having them in that scenario. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On May 14 2012 07:02 vBr wrote: I don't agree. Well I do agree with your assessment but you are basically playing with the hope that the protoss player is unfamiliar with the style if you don't include ghosts. Ghosts are a must to beat a strong anti-mech composition. You can choose to play without ghost and still win, but you are basically winning because of the protoss lack of experience against your army composition. If I had a nickel for every time somebody came into this thread to say 'you are winning because protoss lack experience against your style' I'd be fucking rich. Keep talking and saying nothing, bro, you're not contributing to the thread at all. On May 14 2012 09:16 ZjiublingZ wrote: No offense, but this thread is FULL of people 'explaining' things about Mech TvP without actually saying anything meaningful, or helping anybody improve or understand Mech vs P at all. It's like what Day9 talked about, people are saying things that don't really mean anything in Starcarft. So I will try and start a real discussion here about Mech vs P. Ghost/Mech vs Pure Mech. Here we go!!!! I think we should be A LOT more specific about the strengths and weaknesses. I understand you will have less Fact in the mid-game when going Ghost/Mech, but what does this mean? What is the strength/weakness of this position? Your upgrades will be slower, but you have the extra burst damage of EMP/Snipe templar. In what SPECIFIC scenarios is having the Ghosts better than the upgrades? Does it transition better to the late game? Is it better for timing attacks or aggressiveness in general? Or better at playing defensively? Or does it get even more specific than that? Finally, what can a Meching player look for at ~10-13 (or earlier if possible) minutes to find out which style will be superior (if one really is)? WHY? In my experience, I often find myself wishing I had gone for the other route, but not sure how I can know earlier on which is better at the time. I find Ghosts are better against immortal heavy pushes, but worse against Colossus heavy ones. It can be hard to tell which one he is going for by the time I have committed to my tech choice, and one easily transitions into the other. EMP does much more damage against Stalkers than Zealots, but once again, it is very hard for me to tell which unit he is going to be making more of. As of now, I just go Pure Mech if I scout Colossus Tech before Templar Tech, but I can't really give a solid argument for why that is 100% the correct decision to make. My thought process is basically: EMP + Snipe is good against Templar and Archons, so it's worth having them in that scenario. Very good points. This is a great way to differentiate between whether or not to add ghosts before the late game. The problem I see is, as you said, it's difficult to know which one your opponent is likely to be going for. The strength of having more infrastructure is obvious; your army will be overall larger and have better upgrades, but will be less equipped to deal with Immortal/Archon based armies, which can simply roll over you if you don't have an absurdly good position advantage. However, if your opponent doesn't go for an Immortal/Archon based army, you will be able to engage them favorably at any time and go into the late game with a solid advantage. Most of my mech build variations incorporate some sort of timing attack off of two bases. They hit exactly in this time frame of 10-13 minutes that you're talking about, and they should allow you to determine if he is going for Templar or Colossus tech first, which is one of the many useful functions of applying pressure. | ||
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nebula.
Sweden1431 Posts
 (I hate playing vs mech as a zerg)would love to have some tips, i kind of like playing terran every once in a while. : D Edit: I guess I might be slightly OT but yeah Im looking for builds for TvZ and TvT aswell | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
Edit: If we're nearing maxing out, that's when I start adding ghost + air (like in the 2nd video Lyyna released) if he's sticking with archon/immortal? or do I add ghosts and/or air earlier when I see that he's going for that? | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On May 16 2012 12:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I've had trouble dealing with immortal/archon... just wondering, is ghost the right answer? Or Banshee/Air? Because I feel like with ghosts, I won't have enough EMPs to EMP them all, and if I do, then my army is like half ghosts and I don't have that huge number of tanks. I feel like Banshees are better, but just wondering about your guys' opinion... a mix, or is that inefficient? (I feel like it is... immortal/archon doesn't move as fast as zealot/stalker so you can kill some units before the engagement with banshees). Usually when they go immo/archon I don't have to worry about HTs though. Is this true or are they just not playing optimally? Are tanks/banshees not enough to deal with HTs? (sending 1 banshee or separating the banshees to snipe the HT after observer dies) Edit: If we're nearing maxing out, that's when I start adding ghost + air (like in the 2nd video Lyyna released) if he's sticking with archon/immortal? or do I add ghosts and/or air earlier when I see that he's going for that? I don't know if you are talking about this as a 2 base all in or as a general composition, but I play against this a lot both ways against a practice partner so I'll just say what I've learned. Ghost is definitely the right answer! Ghosts and Hellions. Hellions work perfectly against Immortals. They don't take the increased damage from Immortals (which means they only do ~13 DPS, which makes them an expensive Zealot). Hellions also do 8/9/10/11 damage, so they are almost always completely unaffected by Hardened Shield. If you have 10-13 Hellions, you can take down 2-3 Immortal Shields in one shot with focus fire. WOW. Who needs EMP? Save the EMP's for Archons, and after that I find it's best to ignore them. They really do horrible damage against Mech (for 300 gas), especially with no splash. They are only good for soaking up Siege Tank shots, so make sure your Siege Tanks are focus firing the Immortals and basically anything else first! Other than that, just a good core army of upgraded Tanks and Thors should deal with everything fine. Engage with Hellions/Ghosts at as close to the 14 Range of Tanks as possible, EMP Archons, kite and focus fire Immortals, retreat behind Thors, and I think you will be surprised at how weak this composition actually is when dealt with this way. In fact, you can beat it with just Thor/Hellion/Ghost if it isn't supported by enough Gateway units. As for Banshees/Air, they are always good because they complement Mech so well. And against this composition they will be at least fairly light on Stalkers because It's so gas intensive, so that always makes Banshees stronger. Archons do beat them but in big enough groups they trade very efficiently with Archons (spread so no splash). It also means (usually) they have High Templar so then there is feedback to look out for. I'd say get the Banshees if you can afford it for extra map control and harass, but they aren't going to help you in engagements so not against any all inish Protoss. If you play this composition in the late game though, BattleCruisers become realllllly good. They aren't effected by Hardened Shield (8/9/10/11), Archons do no splash, and they give your Siege Tanks and Ghosts the forward vision to get off EMPS and Focus Fire the slow Immortals. As for HT, if there are Archons it's possible, just means less Archons. Use your EMP's and Snipes on them, and still focus fire the Immortals with Hellions. Archons absorb a lot more EMP's or Ghost energy in general, so as long as you trust your Ghost control it's usually better to face HT IMO. EDIT: In response to your edit, I would add Ghosts as you take your third. I don't know what opening you are doing, but the popular ones in this thread involve opening with Banshee. I would say follow the standard of getting to 4 Banshees and quitting there, move to BC's when you have the economy (4 bases). If you are worried about dying, Banshees aren't going to help you. Banshees will help you gain an advantage in a situation where you are already safe. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
well, time to play xD | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
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-Joonie-
United States3 Posts
Joonie | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On May 16 2012 18:08 -Joonie- wrote: I absolutely love this idea, however I don't understand the later late game, lets take antiga for example? what if youre playing macro/defensive and expanding until you realize..you have to take a 5th and 6th. How do you properly defend those expansions? You say to never push unless you do a good trade for army, but what if they disregard your main and 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th expos and just constantly deny your 5th and 6th with their 200/200 army? surely your siegeline is not long enough to cover all your bases, so what do you do at that point? Thank you! Joonie All he needs is 3 bases to win the game. His lategame army composition is literally impossible to beat for toss, check his replays. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
-Infrastructure : Ghost mech will usually have a 1/3/1 with 1 armory on 2/3 bases ( i usually dont really add any production facilities on 3 bases, as you should use all your ressources with your really cost heavy units). Ghostless will usually have 1/5/1. What does this mean? Basically, the ghostless will have a bigger number of units, earlier, and you dont rely on energy or anything : these units can instantly fight when they get on the field. You'll especially have a huge number of hellions, and you can sacrifice them to do economic or positional damage (forcing his army to move where you want him to move). The bigger amount of mech units allows you to trade with him without any big problem (consider you can get like 8 hellions and 3 thors every minute . . ). Ghostmech will basically have less units, and will not aim at "trading" : with ghostmech , you aim at FUCKING TOTALLY ANNIHILATING his whole army with nearly no loss from your side. You cant really allows to loose everything as you'll have less facilities to reprod, and you also need time to get energy on ghosts. But as a side effect of less production , you can have more spare ressources to get a better lategame installation ( MOAR CC ) -Uppgrade Easy here. Ghostmech will only have 1 armory (at least until the BC transition), Ghostless will have 2. Mech is cool due to the fact that, even if getting double uppgrades makes your army insanely godlike ( and allows you to not have to choose between armor and damage), single uppgrade is totally fine too. -Combat abilities Ghostless mech can usually fight most protoss armies well. It'll trade really well especially with the "standard" (but now a bit old school ) chargelot/stalker/colossus midgame ball : You'll loose a lots of hellions but you can replenish them fast, while increasing the size of your core thors/tanks army. The problem comes when he's getting heavy archon/immortal/HT. Colossus and air too. All these units are relying a lot of energy/shields, and they can trade relatively well with your ghostless ball (i said RELATIVELY. contrary to what people say, for example a big immortal army will not instantly win versus your mech army, especially due to your shitload of hellions protecting your core units). GhostMech will basically struggle because of the fact that you have to invest resources in ghost tech early in the game, meaning your army will not be as big as a ghostless one, but you'll basically have an instant ~~40% hp damage burst on his whole army as soon as you get a critical mass of ghosts (i personally think the ghost mech start to be more combat-effective once you get 4 ghosts). So, to sum-up Ghostmech = more for defensive style -Weaker Until you get that critical ghost mass -Cant really trade due to the lack of production -Later uppgrades -More spare ressources due to less production - Allows for "bigger" lategame -Insanely strong once you get your ghosts count -you dont really fear any protoss composition So basically, defensive lategame economic play, in a few words GhostLess -Lots of production early -Can Trade units (and sacrifice hellions for harass) -Double uppgrades allows you to continue to win fights even in "late midgame" -Allows to be agressive -Less spare ressources -Weaker to some protoss shield/spell heavy army -Start to loose its strength in lategame, once having the good composition to totally crush him become more important than being to just "trade well" So basically , More midgame oriented play ,allowing you to be more agressive @Yoshi : ZjiublingZ is fucking good. In fact, for both of you, can i add the question and the answer to the guide? On May 16 2012 18:08 -Joonie- wrote: I absolutely love this idea, however I don't understand the later late game, lets take antiga for example? what if youre playing macro/defensive and expanding until you realize..you have to take a 5th and 6th. How do you properly defend those expansions? You say to never push unless you do a good trade for army, but what if they disregard your main and 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th expos and just constantly deny your 5th and 6th with their 200/200 army? surely your siegeline is not long enough to cover all your bases, so what do you do at that point? Thank you! Joonie The problem is :How do you deny these expansions ? Are you going to use something like zealots and DT warp to destroy CC and stuff like that? I'll deflect it just with PF turrets and air. So at some point if you want to deny me these bases you have to send your army there. From here different things can happen, considering i'll see you coming due to mass scan and sensor towers -I choose to intercept your army, sieging ahead of it. Usually you'll avoid to fight -I choose to sacrifice a base or two if i have enough economy and some spare CCs, and i destroy some of your bases, basically sending my ground army at one, my air army at another, and a few units to a last ones. And if we trade bases, ill win due to the fact i can just mass orbitals at home, while you cant really mass macro nexus . . . -Combination of the above : i send a few units (usually ravens for turrets, ghosts for nukes, or banshees) while letting you get in my bases. While you're destroying it , i jsut get other bases while setting a good position for my army. At this point you have to choose between slowing losing your bases one at a time, or trying to break the contain you let me do. The idea itself of denying "late" bases is ok, but the fact is that at some point, if you really want to deny these , you have to commit to it. And due to the fact i have sensor towers, mass scans, and ability to do "passive" harass with nukes/turrets means that once you commit, you're dead | ||
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