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Tank positioning is definitely something I always wondered about in TvP xD
For now, I just keep them slightly spread out. They're not all clumped together but they're not spread out like in a TvZ neither. I usually split them into about 3 groups like ZjiublingZ shows. You can leapfrog this way, and as he says, if he tries to engage you, the other 2 clumps will be in range still. If he doesn't engage you, you still have a few tanks (which is enough) sieging his nexus or whatever it is you are pushing towards.
Then again there's the positioning where you just make it into a big arc. This would line things up for colossi though, so maybe make them into 2-3 "layers" of arcs? Basically an arc, except move every other tank forward a bit, so that if a colossus attacks it doesn't splash anything. A really nice arc would be hard to set up quickly though, so the first idea is still similar.
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On July 09 2012 18:01 peidongyang wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2012 17:38 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote:
Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work. Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL" He is right though on somewhat. On maps like Cloud Kingdom I really feel out of my depth. The second the Protoss sees I went for anything except a CC first into mech they just drop a quick third (pre 8 minute) and they just slowly saturate their 3 bases. Then you're basically in the shits since you have no idea what the toss's economy is unless you burn tons of scans because you have no clue if he has 46, 54, 60, or even going for 70+ probes. I remember a game where Naniwa completely mindfucks his opponent by faking a 2 colo ~60 probe attack I think against byun on Cloud Kingdom, and now the terran who has 3 bases cant move out since if you do move out against a low econ protoss you will be burned and insta-lose vs a 160+ supply army. Turns out Naniwa went for a fast 4th and teched to voids and whenever byun try to push out Naniwa would just be stubborn and back away slowly while abusing warpin pylon to harrass Byun's 3rd. By then the toss could have voids, or 3/3 ht colo, or basically anything he wanted. Honestly, on maps like Cloud Kingdom if the toss has somewhat of an idea of what mech can macro out in whatever time and abused it its basically hell on earth come 15 minutes where the terran cant move out, is being constantly harrassed and has a giant timebomb ticking for the when the toss wants to fight and remax into win against you.
I guess the problem here is the CC first. This often forces a allin OR an eco build from the toss, and that's why i prefer safe openings,which while force safe play for both players (or will allows me to harass, like 111). There is always some hard maps (like CK) i agree, but except for TdA, you can do stuff on it.
On July 10 2012 09:25 PersonDudeGuy wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been asked before but I'm still skeptical of this mech style, I have tried mech before to very little success. What i ask is this:
From what i understand the reason that traditional MMMGV TvP is so successful is usually because of it's mobility and map control which allows the terran to get and sustain a base advantage. How do you deal with the immobility of mech? I feel as if mech is so much less mobile for a menial increase in power. I found while playing mech that I could not effectively punish a greedy protoss and that the composition was very delicate. A thor/banshee/hellion combo could certainly be fast but in my experience phoenix/colossus is a common response to all mech styles, it seems to counter it extremely hard.
One of the things i have brought up about mech's disabilities is the role of the tank. I know first hand that tanks can be very powerful in TvP but only with large sim cities and when sieged, given a less mobile army how do you divide your forces to deal with harassment and how do you push out properly? It seems as if you would have to leap frog extremely slowly in order to not be killed.
I guess the best question to ask of all is "What is the most powerful counter to your build?" All builds have a counter, what is mech's? What should you be most careful of when trying this?
Well,the fact is that MMMGV is not that effective anymore, especially since games are longer than before, and bio shows its limits here. And well,the fact is that i allows say "lol" when people talks about bio mobility because basically . . . well, mech (mine,and the few used by pros) rely a lot on banshees and hellions. Banshees flies as fast as medivacs,and hellions are faster than bio . . and dont requires you to sacrifice hp's on your army. and can still be drop. so in terms of controlling the map with pressure/runbys, mech is equal.
I agree than tanks requires sim cities and reduces the mobility of my army.That's why i play totally defensive, extending only to expand until i get my big deathball  . Dealing with harassment and leapfrogging is taken care of with 1 tool : sensor towers. These things are sooo under rated, it allows you to judge incoming threat and react accordingly.
Actually the best counter to my build is massive hidden carriers switch. Usually little pressure just to make sure i cant focus on everything while hiding starports in an unscannable position. That's why you need a REALLY careful scouting (and a lot of orbitals).
On July 10 2012 11:33 uzushould wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 17:38 Lyyna wrote:On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote:
Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work. Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL" well for me it seems like this guys is right about what he is saying, i could also beat a lot of players i face in ladder with some strategys that wouldn t work against even people...so just because u win with it, doesn t actually mean its good....your guide is for sure a good guide, and its great to have ppl looking at things from other perspectives, but alone the fact that no pro is playing mech vs p and the fact that even goody (the king of mech) is nowadays playing bio against toss, tells the hole story, unfortunately. so this guide is a strategy for mid players, they can use it and win because a lot of toss arent used to this style and dont know how to counter this, but it will never work in high masters (unless you have gm skill and pull it off this way) and i HAVE read your guid btw ;-)
Well, i wasn't going to answer you post because i saw "goody not playing mech ultimate proof" but as there is others contents..
-For Goody not playing mech : i answered it like 950532 times. including in the guide.
-Some people meched vP,especially recently (Hack for example). There is a little number of pros doing it, but still there is some. Which is more than before.
-Anyway i never said this guide is for pro. This guide is for every people below me (and as i was able to make it to top 20 master EU,that's a lot of people i guess) who are struggling with bio and want to try a slower style.
@sinisterrtheory : sorry but your post is kinda . . unreadable. anyway Danglars seems to answered it well
About the tank placement thing :
I usually spread them just a bit in defense (basically, a "tank space" between each tank). Allows to good fire concentration, but he also cant get a good grab on my tanks number (as obs get sniped by thors, and there is a few lines of tanks). And you can adapt the formation to his army.
In offense,you'll often dont have time to place them anyway...
going to edit for others answers
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i want to contribute a little bit, with my mech point of view~ check these:
vs bling http://drop.sc/212703
vs stormtoss http://drop.sc/221475
vs milkea http://drop.sc/221559
vs cynmonty http://drop.sc/221560
basically this a cc first into 16rax16gas opener into reactor hellion into 2fact1rax helliontankmarine pressure into a ghosttankhellionbansheeviking timing. hellion heavy composition.
(againts bling its a little bit older replays, thats why it wasnt CC first the later ones are recent)
any thoughts?
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On July 14 2012 08:35 Breach_hu wrote:i want to contribute a little bit, with my mech point of view~ check these: vs bling http://drop.sc/212703vs stormtoss http://drop.sc/221475vs milkea http://drop.sc/221559vs cynmonty http://drop.sc/221560basically this a cc first into 16rax16gas opener into reactor hellion into 2fact1rax helliontankmarine pressure into a ghosttankhellionbansheeviking timing. hellion heavy composition. (againts bling its a little bit older replays, thats why it wasnt CC first the later ones are recent) any thoughts?
I personally don't really like mass hellion style but well, the style is interesting (especially considering the few "pro" mech are using a lots of hellions too). Opening being really unsafe imo (15CC is already unsafe, but going reactor hellion after..hmm)
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agree about cc first into 16 rax 16 gas... 14 cc is already greedy, and you only get 1 rax? and not even into bio, but into mech, and a hellion opening at that o.o
i mean, it's not a build I would use every game as my go-to build, only something to mix things up
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So far they aren't the greatest games, but if anyone's interested I've been streaming now.
http://www.twitch.tv/lyrathegreat/videos
The vods are broken up into ~1 hour segments cuz my internet kept discing for 5 seconds which made xsplit start a new vod every time. I went 6-0 tvp today all using various mech builds.
http://www.twitch.tv/lyrathegreat/b/325227110 Game starts at 1:00
http://www.twitch.tv/lyrathegreat/b/325232165 Game starts at 27:30
http://www.twitch.tv/lyrathegreat/b/325242999 Game starts at 13:30
http://www.twitch.tv/lyrathegreat/b/325266313 Game starts at 36:00
http://www.twitch.tv/lyrathegreat/b/325277630 Game starts at 19:42. This is by far the weakest opponent, but the build will be pretty easy to follow as result.
http://www.twitch.tv/lyrathegreat/b/325277630 Game starts at 47:00 Funny and relatively short game in playhem daily tourney on whirlwind.
I can upload the reps too if anyone wants them.
So it seems to me that after experimenting with a myriad of various 1rax cc openings, such as the hellion-heavy variations that the "pros" have been doing, that 1rax cc into mech isn't safe. There are scenarios where it works very well, such as 1rax cc gasgas vs nexus first, but it seems like there are unwinnable scenarios too.
When I do 1rax cc gasgas there are some 1base all-ins I find I can't stop, because they look to my scout scv like 1gate nex, and by the time I scout a proxy or something in their main with a 2nd scout that indicates it's an all-in instead I don't have the time to make enough marines with the late extra rax/bunkers I frantically build to survive.
When I do 1rax cc raxrax gasgas I find there are 2base attacks that aren't holdable except maybe with a very large bunker count due to just not having enough gas/time to make the good mech units. I've tried pure tank/hellion with the intent of holding map control and dissuading an attack with hellions, and I didn't have much success with it. With a large number of bunkers and/or just defending in nat (not taking 3rd) it might be possible to hold such attacks, but if you have to delay your 3rd gas and make a bunch of extra bunkers then there's no economic advantage conveyed by opening 1rax cc instead.
So instead I'm returning to more traditional lyyna openings, and so far I've been much more successful. In lyyna's most recent games he was opening 2gas fact 4 marine tank cc. I don't like a single siegeless tank if it's not going to be obviously immediately useful. So what I've been mostly trying so far is a very similar opening, except getting a hellion and armory instead of a tank (assuming my scv scout didn't detect an all-in) If the hellion scouts the signs of an all-in I can make the tank instead if I need, and get a port before cc, etc. The difference is a faster thor, not "wasting" money on a tank that won't be needed for a while, and significantly faster upgrades. Maybe there's some all-in that I won't be able to stop since I've delayed that initial heavy fact unit, but I'm not aware of any thus so far.
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What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
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On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote:
What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but...
1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you.
2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere.
3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base.
4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you.
5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game.
You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball.
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On July 22 2012 09:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote:
What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but... 1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you. 2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere. 3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base. 4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you. 5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game. You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball.
1) What should be the maximum of PDD? I try to figure out in the unit tester but i dont get a solution for this but i guess you're to through for example at the beginning 5 instantly and then additional ones if needed.
2) Mostly i stop at around 12 Raven. Should i build more?
4) What upgrade is more effective against protoss air attack or air armor?
5) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351939
Round of 32/16, Dragon vs. ToD, Map1 Daybreak
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On July 18 2012 02:59 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 08:35 Breach_hu wrote:i want to contribute a little bit, with my mech point of view~ check these: vs bling http://drop.sc/212703vs stormtoss http://drop.sc/221475vs milkea http://drop.sc/221559vs cynmonty http://drop.sc/221560basically this a cc first into 16rax16gas opener into reactor hellion into 2fact1rax helliontankmarine pressure into a ghosttankhellionbansheeviking timing. hellion heavy composition. (againts bling its a little bit older replays, thats why it wasnt CC first the later ones are recent) any thoughts? I personally don't really like mass hellion style but well, the style is interesting (especially considering the few "pro" mech are using a lots of hellions too). Opening being really unsafe imo (15CC is already unsafe, but going reactor hellion after..hmm)
Lyyna,
Big fan of your contribution. I'm a TvP mech player as well and I have many discussions with ESCGoody on the topic. Goody stopped mech play primarily b/c of BF nerf. I've seen many of your replays, but honestly, I try to avoid the air transition. I've reviewed many of your "long" games and I stopped banshee build altogether (I think its too predictable and common). With the new map pool, what seems to be working for me as a high master Terran, is gas first into reactor helion (no marine if no probe). Much of the time Protoss is fooled into fast banshee or some helion rines push and do not see it coming. Even when they see the double helions, they have a hard time blocking with constant helion rally.
While i keep pumping helions I drop the CC at my natural. There is very little defense except the bunker and maurader made from the one rax/tech lab - this can be construed as a weakness in the build, but so is going banshee with only 1 bunk to defend. I take the xel naga towers with any helions left and attempt to circle around and do a run-by if they try to move out.
I drop armory then additional 3 facts and go from there...but my unit composition usually consists of tanks, helions, 2-3 ghosts, 1-2 thors (unless there is P air.)
Edit: I also like this build because you can scout your opponents base while killing probes. Many times I have won b/c the Protoss went fast v-ray proxy and had very little units. I was able to kill all probes and kill the 1-2 vray after switching reactor factory with rax.
EmpirePinky
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I've been wondering about a Reactor Hellion opening in TvP as I feel very comfortable with it in my TvZ games.
However my main worry with it is the complete lack of anti-air. Zerg cannot get any air up before 10 minutes and that is if he rushes straight for a Spire. The hellions generally force Roaches (as I keep building them up to 12+) which delays the Spire.
Against Protoss however, I don't know the exact timing for a Void Ray but I believe it is around 6:30 to 7 minutes.
By that time I'd have about 4-6 hellions but very few marines (perhaps only the initial 2?). Any sort of Stalker support (as they can see the marines on the high ground due to Void Ray vision) would make it even harder.
Also, Protoss can proxy the Stargate although the hellions may spot it then.
Any insights into how to scout for (and deal with) a Void Ray opening if I went for Reactor Hellion?
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On July 22 2012 18:14 Thezzy wrote:
I've been wondering about a Reactor Hellion opening in TvP as I feel very comfortable with it in my TvZ games.
However my main worry with it is the complete lack of anti-air. Zerg cannot get any air up before 10 minutes and that is if he rushes straight for a Spire. The hellions generally force Roaches (as I keep building them up to 12+) which delays the Spire.
Against Protoss however, I don't know the exact timing for a Void Ray but I believe it is around 6:30 to 7 minutes.
By that time I'd have about 4-6 hellions but very few marines (perhaps only the initial 2?). Any sort of Stalker support (as they can see the marines on the high ground due to Void Ray vision) would make it even harder.
Also, Protoss can proxy the Stargate although the hellions may spot it then.
Any insights into how to scout for (and deal with) a Void Ray opening if I went for Reactor Hellion?
Basically when your hellions get to his base, if he doesn't have many units, you can be pretty sure he is going void ray. Make sure by sending out an scv and checking proxy locations. If you do find the stargate immediately put the rax on the factory and pump marines. You could put down an engineering bay if you really don't feel safe, but that isn't always necessary.
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On July 22 2012 18:14 Thezzy wrote:
I've been wondering about a Reactor Hellion opening in TvP as I feel very comfortable with it in my TvZ games.
However my main worry with it is the complete lack of anti-air. Zerg cannot get any air up before 10 minutes and that is if he rushes straight for a Spire. The hellions generally force Roaches (as I keep building them up to 12+) which delays the Spire.
Against Protoss however, I don't know the exact timing for a Void Ray but I believe it is around 6:30 to 7 minutes.
By that time I'd have about 4-6 hellions but very few marines (perhaps only the initial 2?). Any sort of Stalker support (as they can see the marines on the high ground due to Void Ray vision) would make it even harder.
Also, Protoss can proxy the Stargate although the hellions may spot it then.
Any insights into how to scout for (and deal with) a Void Ray opening if I went for Reactor Hellion?
Adding to what kollin said -- remember they are doing a 1 base strategy, meaning you have a lot of leeway for defending it while still being ahead. Don't be afraid to spend resources into an ebay (if the map allows you to place ~3-4 turrets to stop voids from entering your base, i would go ebay) or a starport for vikings. When I see protoss 1 base (any kind really) i just transition into 1/1/1. Marine Tank Viking. 111 should give you the infrastructure to stop all kinds of 1 base plays. Against void ray, you can go 3 rax 1 fact 1 starport and end the game with marine tank banshee.
So if you don't see a 2nd base but don't know what he's doing -- I would just play it safe. Remember, you are getting an expo so you'll already be ahead "as long as you defend the push". I quote that because obviously if you invest too much into defense protoss could break even, but you would have to spend a lot of resources for that to happen, and even if it happens, it's not the end of the game -- he's merely not at a severe disadvantage anymore.
If it's on a map that's hard to defend against certain 1 base plays (or if you're not confident in micro) then don't be afraid to lift your natural CC into your main. It's much easier to defend and you'll still have higher income than the Protoss thanks to the extra Mules.
Yes I forgot the exact timing but 3 gate void is around 7 minutes, depending on if they wait for 2 or 3 voids or just go asap. If you don't see an expansion by 5:30 (or 5:40, since 1 gate robo expand is at around 5:30), then an alarm should go off in your head that he's doing a 1 base play. You have roughly 1.5 minutes to prepare for the attack. The easy way, once again, would be just to get to 1/1/1. Obviously if you know how to scout for other things or suspect other things you could play it more risky and prepare for that attack specifically, but you'll still be very far ahead even investing into the extra starport.
On July 22 2012 10:19 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 09:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote:
What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but... 1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you. 2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere. 3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base. 4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you. 5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game. You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball. 1) What should be the maximum of PDD? I try to figure out in the unit tester but i dont get a solution for this but i guess you're to through for example at the beginning 5 instantly and then additional ones if needed. 2) Mostly i stop at around 12 Raven. Should i build more? 4) What upgrade is more effective against protoss air attack or air armor? 5) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351939Round of 32/16, Dragon vs. ToD, Map1 Daybreak
1) I remember i played around with lots of air compositions vs stalker compositions. I forget the ideal numbers though. Roughly 10 PDD per 50 stalkers. Roughly 1 Raven per 5 Banshees. If you don't have 200 energy on each raven, 5 Seeker Missiles is really close to providing the same result (as long as stalkers are clumped up decently). I compared PDD to Seeker missile ratios at many different compositions and army sizes, it was always very close. I tested mainly for banshee/Raven/viking though, so I didn't try out BC heavy compositions (BC/Raven in this case). Usually I don't have enough gas to make that many ravens though so I don't worry about getting a really high Raven/PDD count until later in the game when you're really rich (and thus can replace your SCV count with MULEs, thus freeing up more supply for army, thus allowing you to have more extra supply for extra Ravens/PDDs).
2) See #1. You want to try to get a bigger army and get more and more ravens eventually since energy is free. 12 Ravens is pretty high though, and if you aren't having trouble keeping them alive it should definitely be a good enough number. You could get much higher numbers but if he's a good player he should be able to feedback your PDD/Ravens in time so you gotta be careful 
4) Air attack by far. Why? Protoss has 2 armor upgrades: Armor and Shield. If you upgrade attack, they need to upgrade both armor and shield to "make up" for Terran's attack advantage. Also, Banshees, Vikings, BCs are all multi-shot, while Stalkers aren't. Phoenix are multishot but it's still more worth getting attack over defense because the Protoss needs to upgrade their own air upgrade separately, and you have PDD for defense. Air attack also allows you to harass/base-trade much faster and reduce the effect of guardian shield.
5) thanks so much :D
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On July 22 2012 10:19 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 09:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote:
What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but... 1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you. 2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere. 3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base. 4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you. 5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game. You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball. 1) What should be the maximum of PDD? I try to figure out in the unit tester but i dont get a solution for this but i guess you're to through for example at the beginning 5 instantly and then additional ones if needed. 2) Mostly i stop at around 12 Raven. Should i build more? 4) What upgrade is more effective against protoss air attack or air armor? 5) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351939Round of 32/16, Dragon vs. ToD, Map1 Daybreak
1) I remember i played around with lots of air compositions vs stalker compositions. I forget the ideal numbers though. Roughly 10 PDD per 50 stalkers. Roughly 1 Raven per 5 Banshees. If you don't have 200 energy on each raven, 5 Seeker Missiles is really close to providing the same result (as long as stalkers are clumped up decently). I compared PDD to Seeker missile ratios at many different compositions and army sizes, it was always very close. I tested mainly for banshee/Raven/viking though, so I didn't try out BC heavy compositions (BC/Raven in this case). Usually I don't have enough gas to make that many ravens though so I don't worry about getting a really high Raven/PDD count until later in the game when you're really rich (and thus can replace your SCV count with MULEs, thus freeing up more supply for army, thus allowing you to have more extra supply for extra Ravens/PDDs).
2) See #1. You want to try to get a bigger army and get more and more ravens eventually since energy is free. 12 Ravens is pretty high though, and if you aren't having trouble keeping them alive it should definitely be a good enough number. You could get much higher numbers but if he's a good player he should be able to feedback your PDD/Ravens in time so you gotta be careful
4) Air attack by far. Why? Protoss has 2 armor upgrades: Armor and Shield. If you upgrade attack, they need to upgrade both armor and shield to "make up" for Terran's attack advantage. Also, Banshees, Vikings, BCs are all multi-shot, while Stalkers aren't. Phoenix are multishot but it's still more worth getting attack over defense because the Protoss needs to upgrade their own air upgrade separately, and you have PDD for defense. Air attack also allows you to harass/base-trade much faster and reduce the effect of guardian shield.
5) thanks so much :D[/QUOTE]
I uploaded 3 replays and i'am interested in your opinion about it. I'am just diamond so don't blame me for my mechanics
http://drop.sc/226101
http://drop.sc/226100
http://drop.sc/226099
I guess in all matches you can see my problem with my 3 mainquestions: When should i start my upgrades und which ones? How many PDD i need against stalkers? Should i build only BC at the beginning or directly mixing it with ravens?
Unfortunetly i couldn't find my mass stalker loss. sry for that
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On July 22 2012 20:44 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 10:19 saaaa wrote:On July 22 2012 09:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On July 22 2012 08:57 saaaa wrote:
What do you think about a fast BC/Raven out of a reactor rax FE with some tanks to be safe against the early pressure?
Dragon played it against ToD in the TSL4 Qualifier and i think he could easily win it if he hadn't miss HSM. His build was No Gas FE into 1/1/1 with Cloak Banshee with a try to sneak a hidden expansion and protect it with cloak banshee and get map control with it. His lategame composition was BC/Raven and Ghosts.
I have some question about Air against Protoss:
(1) I always have troubles against Mass Blink Stalker play and i always have the problem that i through down to many PDD to protect them. I mostly get like 12 Raven. How many PDD should i trhough down against Stalker? Is there any critical number or "keynumber" like 1 PDD per 5 Stalker or something like this?
(2) Dragon just build out of 3 Starports only BC's but i think that i should build 1 Raven per 2 BC that means a ratio of 2/1. What do you think about this?
(3) When should i start my air upgrades? I think if i going so BC heavy it is really hard to upgrade. What are your thoughts about that?
(4) Maybe i can just upgrade only attack or armor? But what upgrade is the better choice against Protoss? Does make it huge difference if i just upgrade attack or armor? I think if i just upgrade attack or armor i my air unit number doesn't suffer so much.
If you want i can upload some replays with even wins and losses. I think you can only loose lategame if he can vortex your army and do a archon toilet but even against mass carrier with yamato and HSM its no problem.
This isn't really mech related, but... 1) There's no keynumber. Throw down PDD 1 at a time. If he leaves, then you've only "wasted" 1 PDD (it kept your army safe, you don't want to be caught off guard nor engage). If he engages, keep throwing down 1 pdd at a time. If he has a lot of stalkers (50+ or something) then feel free to throw down 2 at a time or such. Really depends. 12 ravens is quite a lot. IDK what time it is that you get that though. Basically the later the game and/or the higher econ you get, you want more and more ravens because they are more supply efficient. Just make sure you won't die if he just comes to attack your base (unless you can base trade faster) or else you're just relying on your opponent being bad and not attacking at the proper time to punish you. 2) Too many Ravens, it won't pay off in time. Depends on map. You want lots of BCs to fight the stalkers. BCs are already more immobile than banshees so it's harder to harass. Meaning he'll engage your army more often and more easily. You want enough BCs or else he'll force PDD and engage you elsewhere. 3) Depends on our build... air is a complete style, there is no 1 build you have to do. I usually start them once I get on 3 base. 4) I would upgrade both, but if you're not safe then upgrade 1 for now... if you go double upgrade and sacrifice army and hope to not be attacked then you're just being risky. Up to you. 5) Can you link this game? I'm surprised he went air in a high level game. You're right, as long as you EMP the mothership you'll be fine, or just harass him everywhere instead of balling up into 1 BC-heavy deathball. 1) What should be the maximum of PDD? I try to figure out in the unit tester but i dont get a solution for this but i guess you're to through for example at the beginning 5 instantly and then additional ones if needed. 2) Mostly i stop at around 12 Raven. Should i build more? 4) What upgrade is more effective against protoss air attack or air armor? 5) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351939Round of 32/16, Dragon vs. ToD, Map1 Daybreak 1) I remember i played around with lots of air compositions vs stalker compositions. I forget the ideal numbers though. Roughly 10 PDD per 50 stalkers. Roughly 1 Raven per 5 Banshees. If you don't have 200 energy on each raven, 5 Seeker Missiles is really close to providing the same result (as long as stalkers are clumped up decently). I compared PDD to Seeker missile ratios at many different compositions and army sizes, it was always very close. I tested mainly for banshee/Raven/viking though, so I didn't try out BC heavy compositions (BC/Raven in this case). Usually I don't have enough gas to make that many ravens though so I don't worry about getting a really high Raven/PDD count until later in the game when you're really rich (and thus can replace your SCV count with MULEs, thus freeing up more supply for army, thus allowing you to have more extra supply for extra Ravens/PDDs). 2) See #1. You want to try to get a bigger army and get more and more ravens eventually since energy is free. 12 Ravens is pretty high though, and if you aren't having trouble keeping them alive it should definitely be a good enough number. You could get much higher numbers but if he's a good player he should be able to feedback your PDD/Ravens in time so you gotta be careful 4) Air attack by far. Why? Protoss has 2 armor upgrades: Armor and Shield. If you upgrade attack, they need to upgrade both armor and shield to "make up" for Terran's attack advantage. Also, Banshees, Vikings, BCs are all multi-shot, while Stalkers aren't. Phoenix are multishot but it's still more worth getting attack over defense because the Protoss needs to upgrade their own air upgrade separately, and you have PDD for defense. Air attack also allows you to harass/base-trade much faster and reduce the effect of guardian shield. 5) thanks so much :D
I uploaded 3 replays and i'am interested in your opinion about it. I'am just diamond so don't blame me for my mechanics
http://drop.sc/226101
http://drop.sc/226100
http://drop.sc/226099
I guess in all matches you can see my problem with my 3 mainquestions: When should i start my upgrades und which ones? How many PDD i need against stalkers? Should i build only BC at the beginning or directly mixing it with ravens?
Unfortunetly i couldn't find my mass stalker loss. sry for that
[/QUOTE]
Np, this thread is probably better for discussing air play though ^^
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283935
I'll watch the dragon game first, because when i go air i start with banshees. I've always wanted to try a 1 rax FE BC opening (into BCs, instead of banshees) and so I'll take a look at how dragon plays it first.
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Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~
http://drop.sc/226582
http://drop.sc/226589
http://drop.sc/226590
http://drop.sc/226594
http://drop.sc/226595
http://drop.sc/226583
This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio.
Here are some scrappier games-- which mostly means I made some big blunders.
http://drop.sc/226587
http://drop.sc/226588
http://drop.sc/226591
So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me.
When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1.
Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully.
In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production.
The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it.
An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think).
I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor).
Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)).
I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet.
So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though.
As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find.
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Would just like to say thank you to everyone who has maintained and contributed to this thread. As someone who has always paid mech TvT and TvZ, but assumed that it couldn't be made to work in TvP, it has been perfect for me.
I'm now happily meching along in gold league, and TvP is no longer my "problem child" matchup (damn zergs...).
Keep up the good work!
EB
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On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote:Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~ http://drop.sc/226582http://drop.sc/226589http://drop.sc/226590http://drop.sc/226594http://drop.sc/226595http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio. Here are some scrappier games-- which mostly means I made some big blunders. http://drop.sc/226587http://drop.sc/226588http://drop.sc/226591So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me. When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1. Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully. In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production. The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it. An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think). I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor). Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)). I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet. So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though. As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find.
I really like your play. Also, a really interesting thing to note is that you came to same conclusions than me about
-uppgrades. These days i choose to get early attack uppgrades. I still go for +1 armor first but go attack after this, as the finale objective of your deathball is to burst everything as fast as possible
-Ghosts. You need good ghosts count and personally, instead of getting early 2nd rax, i usually prefer to get early (~~12 min) ghost academy.
-Scouting. That's why i love to get mass orbitals : mass mules . . and shitloads of scans
-Cloak. Too early cloak delay too much your thors tech, that's why i prefer to start it around 8-10 minutes, while getting my first thor.It's really important to get it early enough for any 10-12 minutes bust, which is easily dealt with by sniping obs and enjoying imbanshees.
This fast carriers style you are describing. .. that's one of the reasons i like to go thors/banshees/hellions/ghosts on 2 bases, only adding more stuff with more bases . Because if the protoss try to play a greedy low unit/fast tech/fast expand style, you can punish it with a REALLY strong midgame composition on 2/3 bases.
About your last reflexion on harassment,well,that's why i prefer to always play defensive and only pressuring some sides of his bases/army,never comitting to it (you can see it especially in my TvZs,where i can sometimes win without killing a single drones in 20 minutes). And by not loosing my "poke units", i can use resources to build orbitals and scan instead of rebuilding these 4 hellions that charged in 14 cannons to kill 1 probes.
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Nightmarjoo, I saw your stream and some of your replays. It's very very interesting and innovative, thanks for your contribution.
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http://drop.sc/231530 From today's playhem tourney; very annoying game.
http://drop.sc/231533 From yesterday's playhem.
Other replays:
http://drop.sc/231531
http://drop.sc/231531
http://drop.sc/231535
Been trying out more aggressive openings. So far I've had a lot of success with hellion/marauder. Illusion did a weird build on daybreak vs hero recently where he went gas first fact reactor (rax) reactor (fact) cc marine/hellion and attacked on 11 marine 8 hellion, forcing hero to cancel cc. I've tried Reactor hellion cc too, and it seems ok, but I'm not a huge fan of it yet atm. I don't like cloaked banshee cc: seems like I'm delaying cc too much for not that much gain. I haven't been able to pull off cloaked banshee cc cc tank/hellion yet, but it seems like if viable that wouldn't be bad.
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EPT
