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United Kingdom12041 Posts
Thanks for the replays yet again Nightmarjoo. I really don't like banshees as I'm so bad with getting them to do any damage, maybe I was getting them too late but they never actually helped me so this more factory heavy style should suit me better.
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Hi guys, new replay pack!
In this pack, there is some really interesting games where i play in a low eco/bad trade situation in TvP, still winning after that. Interesting games to show how mech can recover or just get an edge in a too equal situation
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On August 23 2012 15:27 Lyyna wrote:Hi guys, new replay pack! http://www.mediafire.com/?t08i8p36i481qi9In this pack, there is some really interesting games where i play in a low eco/bad trade situation in TvP, still winning after that. Interesting games to show how mech can recover or just get an edge in a too equal situation
edit : hitting quote instead of edit like a boss --'
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Thank you for the new replay pack.
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Thanks for the guide! I've been horrible with mech, but with this info maybe i might give it a try once again X]
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Hey Lyyna, in your replay packs, I see that they are all winning replays.
Would you be able to share the replays of your tvt mech vs bio where you lose? I just intend on studying those replays.
Thank you
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with regards to upgrades, if im in a position where i know im safe to max our on what I want, I did major damage with harrass earlier setting him back, or I have really good position or whatever, when i switch into bcs should i prioritise air upgrades over ground if i havent reached 3-3 yet?
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On August 23 2012 18:03 ThePianoDentist wrote:
with regards to upgrades, if im in a position where i know im safe to max our on what I want, I did major damage with harrass earlier setting him back, or I have really good position or whatever, when i switch into bcs should i prioritise air upgrades over ground if i havent reached 3-3 yet?
Yes. Prio air upgrades.
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Prioritize attack upgrades (mech before air), then air armour (if you're making bcs), then get vehicle armour last.
I wrote a recap and analysis of a tvp of mine in the mech resource thread. I think it can help people who are struggling with tvp mech to understand the mindset necessary to make this style work: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15959954.
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Usually i'll try to get 3 attack 1 armor on my mech, getting a second armory while teching to BC (which is usually while getting +3 attack for ground). After that, get attack uppgrades for air, and on the other armory, get ground armor if he's staying with a ground army (your air will not take any damage then, stalkers get owned by PDD and archons by ghosts), or air armour if he's going air (carriers...)
Btw night, interesting opening. If you see an expo from the toss, do you go CC before thor with this?
@Dynwar : i'll check if i have interesting loss vs bio, but well, imo, a bio winning vs mech is just relying on a gimmicky runby/misscontrol by the mech player to win the game...
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As far as his reps go, ye he does
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On July 30 2012 15:43 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote:Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~ http://drop.sc/226582http://drop.sc/226589http://drop.sc/226590http://drop.sc/226594http://drop.sc/226595http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio. Here are some scrappier games-- which mostly means I made some big blunders. http://drop.sc/226587http://drop.sc/226588http://drop.sc/226591So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me. When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1. Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully. In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production. The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it. An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think). I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor). Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)). I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet. So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though. As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find. Night, Good post. You said, "An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold" I've played against this before as high masters. It is a hard counter to mech which few know. My mistake is making too few starports. If you see this, my commentary to the community is have a minimun of 3 reactor starports and start all air upgrades ASAP. I had to suicide tanks to try and kill his 3rd and 4th but it was too late. Make sure you scan and identify this build before it gets out of control. It was my fault for not scouting his army composition, but it is diffucult focusing on composition with this very "tanky" build. I'm only TvP mech (regardelss of map) but my builds certainly are dictated by the map, so it is best to try and scan in key places (too bad no cloaked obs or super speed ols) 
Have you tried just suiciding hellions into his worker line like in TvZ? You should be able to get a nice and heavy hellion count by the time he's able to threaten anything. Immortals alone can't hold like fifteen hellions.
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United Kingdom12041 Posts
On August 29 2012 19:08 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 15:43 SirPinky wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote:Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~ http://drop.sc/226582http://drop.sc/226589http://drop.sc/226590http://drop.sc/226594http://drop.sc/226595http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio. Here are some scrappier games-- which mostly means I made some big blunders. http://drop.sc/226587http://drop.sc/226588http://drop.sc/226591So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me. When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1. Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully. In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production. The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it. An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think). I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor). Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)). I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet. So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though. As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find. Night, Good post. You said, "An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold" I've played against this before as high masters. It is a hard counter to mech which few know. My mistake is making too few starports. If you see this, my commentary to the community is have a minimun of 3 reactor starports and start all air upgrades ASAP. I had to suicide tanks to try and kill his 3rd and 4th but it was too late. Make sure you scan and identify this build before it gets out of control. It was my fault for not scouting his army composition, but it is diffucult focusing on composition with this very "tanky" build. I'm only TvP mech (regardelss of map) but my builds certainly are dictated by the map, so it is best to try and scan in key places (too bad no cloaked obs or super speed ols) Have you tried just suiciding hellions into his worker line like in TvZ? You should be able to get a nice and heavy hellion count by the time he's able to threaten anything. Immortals alone can't hold like fifteen hellions.
Heck if he's going pure immortal you can straight up kill him with mass, mass hellions. YOu just need to get super close to them to do max damage.
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Lyyna what's your opinion on gas first reactor hellion? I've been trying it recently and it's been really successful. Even if I don't do damage I pin my opponent back in his base so I can macro up pretty freely.
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New replay pack
http://www.mediafire.com/?1ohui81vzbiybty
On August 29 2012 19:40 kollin wrote:
Lyyna what's your opinion on gas first reactor hellion? I've been trying it recently and it's been really successful. Even if I don't do damage I pin my opponent back in his base so I can macro up pretty freely.
Well, it can be a good build if you control your hellions well. I myself prefer to play safe builds but for a player wanting to really on agressivity it can be really good.
On August 29 2012 19:08 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 15:43 SirPinky wrote:On July 23 2012 17:10 Nightmarjoo wrote:Since nobody seemed interested in my stream vods, here are some recent reps. twitch.tv/lyrathegreat has my regular stream and vods if anyone changes their mind ~~ http://drop.sc/226582http://drop.sc/226589http://drop.sc/226590http://drop.sc/226594http://drop.sc/226595http://drop.sc/226583 This game is vs NSH Sage, in playhem daily tourney. I do lose it, but I think it should be fairly evident that I at least could have kept the game going on longer, if not won, if I had scouted his gate count (and thus his aggression/composition intent) early enough to construct a PF in front of the ramp in front of my nat. Without that PF I lost to his double aggression at my nat and 4th being unable to efficiently split up my army. I'd say this replay shows that the style can hold its own at "high level". Certainly I couldn't have lasted 28 minutes vs Sage with bio. Here are some scrappier games-- which mostly means I made some big blunders. http://drop.sc/226587http://drop.sc/226588http://drop.sc/226591So, I've picked up a few new ideas from practicing this. In the past I'd followed the original Lyyna upgrades of just mech armour before air ups. Then I was trying out double mech ups. Then recently I was getting armour then just attack. Now I think it's better to get +3 asap. I need to practice more vs my teammate, but he found a nasty 4base immortal/archon attack that hit right before or during initial bc production that was destroying me. When trying out a myriad of variations, minor and extreme, the scenario where I did the best vs it (excluding scenarios where I just had phenomenal unit positioning, which usually isn't possible since p isn't forced to engage you at any single location) was one where I had +3 instead of 2-1. Furthermore a higher ghost count than 1rax can produce is probably necessary. I tended to get a relatively late 2nd rax (and even later 3rd), but I think a 2nd rax on 3base is probably necessary. Though you can't constantly produce 2 tanks, 1 banshee, ups and 2 ghosts (you can do all of that minus the 2nd ghost) on 3base, you still get a few extra ghosts out of it, and 4base supports it fully. In addition to these changes stopping such an attack probably requires scouting that composition in advanced alerting you to make extra banshees and tanks instead of starting bc production. The Sage game taught me the importance of scouting gate count (or main in general for 3rd base transition). A pf that defends at least your nat is probably necessary vs high gate count aggression. I dunno the timing yet, but I'm guessing it's either a cc made on 3base simultaneous with extra oc production, or it's the cc made right after 4th base cc (with no extra ocs yet). It's hard to defend multi-pronged aggression without it. An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold. I'm pretty sure the solution is identifying the strategy/composition early on and hitting with a thor/ghost/hellion timing (0 tank), with 2 reactor facts making hellion and 250mm cannon. I dunno for sure, but I'm guessing this is a 2base timing attack (not that you can't make a 3rd cc, but it's before that's fully up and running I think). I've been downplaying ravens a lot in recent games. I tend to only make extra ravens when I absolutely can't afford additional bcs (and it's late enough in game that I need some support for my existing bcs, or I just lost a battle/barely won and am prioritizing money on ghost/thor). Still not sure about port timing. I've been getting it + a raven pretty fast, but I don't know if that's ideal or if there's something better to make instead (don't know what either; suspect a faster 2nd fact is a bad idea given how mineral limited you are opening the way I am (with gas)). I'm also not getting cloak asap anymore (as I've seen lyyna do also in his most recent games). I don't know when the best timing for it is (or if it's even useful anymore) yet. So beyond questions of scouting and reacting what I'm working on is finding ways to harass more. The maps are all pretty bad for harassing these days (probably the reason for the relative recent terran decline), and I'm finding that most protoss are pretty well-prepared for basic hellion/banshee harass. While I don't need to do any damage, not being able to even make attempts at it is greatly limiting my scouting (which is significant: needing to blow scans on the off-change of getting useful and accurate information is certainly unideal). Gonna try to find out when the most appropriate time for a medic to add drops to that mix is. Don't know if I should try to autoturret harass early on either, or if preserving pdd energy is too important. I suspect the latter is true though. As always, appreciate any feedback on my reps. Please bring any patterns of mistakes or areas of improvement to my attention that you find. Night, Good post. You said, "An annoying scenario I encountered was one where protoss made almost no gate units, using phoenix to fend off harass, making a lot of immortals into fast (3base I think, 4 at max) carriers. Since he wasn't wasting money on gate units his carriers were crazy fast and when he attacked with a mothership I didn't have the bc count to hold" I've played against this before as high masters. It is a hard counter to mech which few know. My mistake is making too few starports. If you see this, my commentary to the community is have a minimun of 3 reactor starports and start all air upgrades ASAP. I had to suicide tanks to try and kill his 3rd and 4th but it was too late. Make sure you scan and identify this build before it gets out of control. It was my fault for not scouting his army composition, but it is diffucult focusing on composition with this very "tanky" build. I'm only TvP mech (regardelss of map) but my builds certainly are dictated by the map, so it is best to try and scan in key places (too bad no cloaked obs or super speed ols) Have you tried just suiciding hellions into his worker line like in TvZ? You should be able to get a nice and heavy hellion count by the time he's able to threaten anything. Immortals alone can't hold like fifteen hellions.
Well, in this kind of situation, i personally use the power of my 2/early 3 bases setup hellion/ghost/banshee/thors, because it allows you to totally destroy that kind of mass immortal into fast carriers style (and since he has little gateways units, banshees will destroy everything since thors protect them from phenix). The problem with that kind of things is that you cant really tell what is going to happens after the mass immo into bases (carriers, VR, mass immortals,mass gateways, or anything else) so you cant blindly go mass BC to counter the coming mass carriers. So the best way is to punish it or at least play with the same greed,relying on a lots of uppgraded turrets/ghosts/thors to handle the first carriers waves until your BCs are out in good enough numbers.
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I tried for the first time this style today on Condemned Ridge (because this map is completely imbalance in tvp biostyle) and even if I made an incredible amount of mistakes (i'm top gold) it worked really well!
I think as protoss the counter is to "dodge" the tanks with harass, multitasks etc... But well... I think they're not used to it. :3
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Good stuff, Lyyna, thanks for the guide. I like mech for the same reasons you stated plus I feel like I can understand mech Terran matchups better than the other styles' TvX. Haven't been able to look at your replays yet but particularly looking forward to seeing you use tanks vs Toss successfully. I loved doing that early in my SC2 history but at some point it stopped working for me (it became too easy to die to chargelots etc.). Would be great to have it back. Thanks for making the guide.
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New replays pack!
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?qwwbb3741m6q297
Since months now i'm using the thorzain opening, and imo this is at the moment the best one to go into mech. Really safe if you read the protoss well, and doesnt as eco unfriendly as 111 expo
Also little personal update : i stopped streaming because i started my new job and was really tired these days, but now i feel in better shape and i might start to stream again a lot for the next 3 months :D
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Cheers Lyyna.
Just don't stop streaming after a few days like last time.
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How do you stop mass expanding from your opponent? Since you say you arent pushing or microing much, how are you going to prevent your opponent putting up ninja expands, and ending up with a way scarier lategame army in the end? (im thinking about some rediculous compositions with max tech and upgrades availible to him, but due to the economy he can get away with it)
Dont you think you need to atleast throw some helions around the map, I am sure people with good micro might be able to pull off small advantages here and there no? Or do you simply expand a little faster, and everything works out in the end?
EDIT : to be more specific, what if he comes at you with that scary airtoss army like you mentioned, and your AA isnt ready yet (due to differences in economy), and you dont have anything goliath-like to fall back on?
I am neither a terran nor protoss player, just curious.
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EPT
