EPT[G] Lyyna’s TvP : How to mech every protoss cry - Page 43
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guitaraffa
15 Posts
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maruxx1
Canada11 Posts
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On October 15 2012 16:56 maruxx1 wrote: typo error OP, its make not mech No it's not...it's a joke. | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses). If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech. It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas. what do you guys think? | ||
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Mali__Slon
Senegal163 Posts
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
On October 15 2012 19:58 SlixSC wrote: I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master) I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses). If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech. It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas. what do you guys think? Give us some backround first, please... What happens if the Protoss deflects all or most of your harassment and you don't kill anything or just a few probes? What about all ins such as 2base colo 1-1? Early 7 or 8 gate? | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On October 15 2012 21:51 Thylacine wrote: Give us some backround first, please...What league is this? What happens if the Protoss deflects all or most of your harassment and you don't kill anything or just a few probes? What about all ins such as 2base colo 1-1? Early 7 or 8 gate? 2 base collossi shouldn't be a problem since you already have a starport, factory, reactor and tech lab, so if you go tank/viking early enough you should be able to hold. The build is very aggressive, so scouting shouldn't be a problem in general. I don't know how it would fare against a 7 or 8 gate, it would really depend on the situation, but it's a very flexible build, so I'm fairly positive that you could find a way to get tanks out in time. But it's really hard to say because the amount of damage your harrassment does can vary from game to game and I'm sure there are situations where you will not do enough damage to hold an early 2 base attack, but protosses are usually playing very defensively when you do this build, they are just pinned to their own base, rarely ever do I get all-inned because the build puts them into a purely defensive mindset (they see banshee and mass hellion and just try to defend as good as they can). Now that I think about it, I even held off a 2 base collossus timing before, I transitioned into bio in that game. But you should be able to hold with mech aswell, just make tanks and vikings (switch factory and starport so that you have your starport on your reactor and factory on the tech lab). I'm sure there are many situations where this build is weak, certain timings etc... but it's a very aggressive opening so that's the price you have to pay I guess. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
Btw, if your only scouting is with an scv to and from their main, 1gas can indicate 5gate voidray all-in. I haven't seen that build used in a very long time, but that doesn't mean it can't work if people don't suspect it. Except on certain maps they have to proxy the stargate for it to be effective. They use the voidray to warp 5zlots into your main from a pylon outside, and the first warp is 5 zlots. From there they can make a few stalkers as well, or make additional voidrays instead. Additionally they can just get 2nd gas the moment your scv leaves. Just because the build isn't optimum doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. I've had protoss who show me 1gas and get 2nd moment I leave and go blink all-in (which would devastate your hellion opening). So if you use this build you have to really stay on top of scouting. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
The problem with agressive openings is that there is big timing windows allowing your opponent to hurt you if you aren't doing enough damage, and these days protoss are good at defending it. But it's a good build to throw in a boX for example,especially if your opponent things you are a defensive/macro player | ||
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DBS
515 Posts
On October 15 2012 19:58 SlixSC wrote: I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master) I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses). If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech. It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas. what do you guys think? I think this would really struggle versus blink stalker play. Hellions get owned by stalkers and banshees don't do to good versus blink stalkers. IDK just theorycrafting but have you ever gone up against blink stalkers with this build? | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On October 16 2012 06:32 DBS wrote: I think this would really struggle versus blink stalker play. Hellions get owned by stalkers and banshees don't do to good versus blink stalkers. IDK just theorycrafting but have you ever gone up against blink stalkers with this build? Hi DBS :D If I see the protoss double gas (which indicates 1 base all-in or at the very least sentry heavy play) I go marine/tank/banshee/raven (standard 111) and can either 1 base all-in myself or take an expo and defend with siege mode. The only 1 base all-in I had alot of trouble against so far was proxy void ray, against blink stalkers I rush to siege mode and either expand or 1-1-1 all-in with banshee/raven and marines + siege tanks. I just recently started working on this build so I only got in around 20 TvPs practising this opening, it's still relatively new and inspired by Polt's hellion banshee play in GSL but I tried to change it in a way to allow for safer play and more flexibility (I'm not saying my build is "better" than Polt's far from it, but Polt's build is auto-loss to any sort of stargate opening or blink stalkers - like you said - I tried to change the build in a way to allow for it to adapt to protoss all-ins.) maybe you can try it a few times because you are obviously much better than me? I mean it's worth a try, so far I have done really well with this build. TvP was my worst matchup by far but ever since I started doing this build I only lost 2-3 games (wrong reaction, still inexperienced with the build order, bad execution - like I said I'm only mid master) Basically: I scout 1 gas -> Reactor Hellion/Banshee I scout 2 gas -> I go reactor marine /tank / raven or banshee (depending on wether or not I'm facing dts). But yeah it's pretty hard to hold off early blink stalkers with this, but once you have siege tanks in siege mode it's not even that hard anymore and you can double expo. It doesn't even matter if the protoss expands, all that matters is if you scout 1 or 2 gas. Even if you scout 1 gas and get 4 gated hellion/banshee can hold that off (but if you scout 2 gas you cant do the hellion/banshee opening, it's auto-loss vs blink stalkers or void rays). But yeah I would love for you to try the build and maybe let us know what happened, because you are actually good and will probably find a few flaws with the build here and there and I'm sure you can do a better job perfectioning it than I can. edit: The strength of this opening is the flexibility I feel. You can either go hellion/banshee or marine/tank, it depends on gases of the protoss. Oh yeah and I forgot to mention. Polt takes his second gas very early, with how I changed the build you just stay on 1 gas for a longer period of time, it let's you gather more minerals and expand earlier. They way Polt does it it's a very hard all-in, I was so fascinated by the build and thought that this could easily be used to transition into mech and be made more flexible by altering the build in case you scout double gas (Polt did this vs an FE, so maybe he already took this into consideration and he would have done it just like I did. I hope we can see more of Polt's TvP games with his version of this build, I would love to see what his response vs blink stalkers is, but like I said we only have 1 vod of him doing this build, so I tried to work with the build and see what's possible if the protoss responds differently from the protoss in the VOD vs polt). edit2: And like nightmarjoo said, it can transition into Bio but also Mech. It might not be an ideal opening for Mech, but I personally have a lot more success vs protoss doing an aggressive opening rather than sit in my base. So I don't know maybe I should make a different thread for this build, because I use it as a mech opening (mainly mech, sometimes bio) but it can also be used as a bio opening (or would be a better bio opening). I mean this build is a style on it's own because it can either transition into a 1-1-1 all-in, bio or mech, depending on what you scout. But like I said I don't have any information on what Polt's reaction to certain all-ins would be because he only used the build once (very recently in the GSTL). I'm just trying to take his build and see what you can do with it. It's very possible that Polt used his version of this opening as a gamble, I'm trying to see what is possible with this opening and if the flexibility is enough to make it a safe opening with the option to expand, harrass, defend or all-in-. On October 16 2012 05:52 Lyyna wrote: Nightmarjoo's analysis is good. This kind of opening isn't mech-specific, and can transition both in bio and mech. The problem with agressive openings is that there is big timing windows allowing your opponent to hurt you if you aren't doing enough damage, and these days protoss are good at defending it. But it's a good build to throw in a boX for example,especially if your opponent things you are a defensive/macro player This is what I'm getting at, I'm sure pros like DBS will find good use for it in a boX series and I personally (for myself) try to use it as my opening on the ladder and am working on responses to certain all-ins I'm facing. I will definitely take nighmarjoo's response about the 1 gas void ray all-in into consideration and see how it fares against that given that I can scout it and make marines in time. But like he already said, nobody ever does this anymore so it might take a couple hundred games until I actually face that again XD | ||
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DBS
515 Posts
Im not pro. Not even close. Rank 3 diamond :D, just thout i would clear that up. | ||
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okarchaic
Canada9 Posts
Anyways my point being this sort of composition isnt relying on factory based units but it based upon a hybrid of starport factory units which mean you upgrade only half your army making your army much weaker in the later stages of the game relative to compositions where upgrades cover all you units(bio, or factory mech) This composition is energy based army though and as such i feel its much weaker then the regular mech style of play. You sacrifice upgrades that cover your whole composition in addition to having a feedbackable army. I have played with this style though and do think it works in a number of situations that are based on timings. TLDR: this is sky mech, not mech | ||
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Serp87
Israel57 Posts
my varation is going 1 rax FE -> double gas -> hellion banshee with cloak. If I see something weird going on with my scv scout i can drop 2 more rax and pamp out marines to hold it off. also to you can transtion from those 3 rax to either bio or mech, using those 3 rax later on for ghost. the strongest thing about this build is the map control and the pinned down postion the protoss get into,also he cant hide any tech since my constant harass provide scouting. I can take fast 3rd and 4th and he cant leave his base to punish it in fear of hellion / banshee harass. I think the banshee is undervalued - if you keep making banshee you kinda force the protoss going for alot of stalker witch is not ideal vs mech. banshee viking combo is real pain in the ass for the protoss to deal ,since you can snipe his obs with the vikings makes your banshee even more deadly,it limits his immortal count and overall make his compastion less ideal. to add insult to injury , since TvP is so bio dominant , protoss players got so used to play vs bio , they auto poiliting the build , going mech shake them up and put them in weird spot to be and not knowing how to react, that alone makes them make mistakes , macro less well and can sometimes just out right win games ( I had more than one game that I killed around 10-20 probes with harass and forcing the protoss to all in me with everyhing he had since he didnt know what to do) | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On October 16 2012 12:32 okarchaic wrote: i find it difficult when people call thor banshee "mech". Mech refers to the BW style of using tank vulture (the sc2 equivalent of hellion tank), This is a factory, starport hybrid that relies on the thor to take dmg and the banshees to deal it. Anyways my point being this sort of composition isnt relying on factory based units but it based upon a hybrid of starport factory units which mean you upgrade only half your army making your army much weaker in the later stages of the game relative to compositions where upgrades cover all you units(bio, or factory mech) This composition is energy based army though and as such i feel its much weaker then the regular mech style of play. You sacrifice upgrades that cover your whole composition in addition to having a feedbackable army. I have played with this style though and do think it works in a number of situations that are based on timings. TLDR: this is sky mech, not mech Nonsense. Mine and Lyyna's overarching styles are identical despite using very different builds. I delay my ports for a long time usually. The way you use what you have is what makes it mech, not what you make. Additionally, it's sc2 mech, not bw mech. The two aren't at all similar. True sc2 mech is only possible given the mule/orbital command. Even Lyyna's build however is not "thor/banshee". He uses thors and banshees to get through the midgame so that he can capitalize on the lategame strengths of mech. You can do this without thors or banshees if you'd like. Also, if you're getting feedbacked you're doing it wrong. Early on you have hellion/tank and maybe cloaked banshees and/or ghosts. Later on you have those things + many cloaked ghosts. Lastly, you don't need to make a single air unit (besides ravens) depending on the game scenario. I often have scrappy, long games where I can't possibly afford battlecruisers, but it's ok since he can't possibly afford carriers. Just because the build can use banshees for support doesn't make it "sky mech". "Sky mech", if indeed such a style is at all viable, relies exclusively on air units for the main army, using other units only for support. | ||
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ThyLastPenguin
United Kingdom101 Posts
On a serious note. I hate you lyyna. You have ruined my life. I'm Protoss. (On an actually serious note, I've found that people doing what I think is this guide really give me hell ): ) | ||
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Blamajama
156 Posts
On October 15 2012 19:58 SlixSC wrote: I have a fairly interesting mech opening for TvP I wanted to share here. (mid master) I go 12 rax, 13 gas, get 1 marine then reactor on barracks, then factory. (all off 1 gas) If I scout my opponent go fast double gas I go reactor marine, tank, raven expecting either an immortal all-in, void rays or DTs. (get early 2nd gas). (This transitions into a 1-1-1 attack which is very good vs 1 basing protosses). If I don't scout a second gas I know his tech options are limited, I put my factory on the ractor and make a tech lab on my barracks + starport. Now I go hellion, banshee. I just pump alot of hellions and go up to 2-3 banshees, try to kill as many probes as possible and double expand behind it. Since I scouted no second gas I can be fairly sure it's not a void ray opening (which would be auto.loss for me) so you can only do this opening if you scout no second gas. This transitions very well into either bio or mech. It's important to keep your opponent on 2 base for as long as possible and double expland behind it. It's a very flexible opening because it allows you to transition into any style you want and punish 1 basing protosses with a 1-1-1 all-in. The most important thing is to scout the protoss second gas. what do you guys think? Yeah the 1-1-1 is pretty hit and miss. Either the protoss is in position or he isn't. The ball is in his court. Of course the terran needs some micro, but helion and even banshee micro is not impossible without sacrificing too much macro. I have tried both banshee marine helion style or medivac marine helion at the 6 min mark and it is 50/50 really as far as evening it up or pulling ahead (or falling behind). Otherwise it is a delayed marine/raven/Tank/banshee and/or Medivac push on a delayed natural expansion. My two cents with that. I could see a Thor/Banshee transition at that point, but I always find myself going back to bio. I find siege mode is ineffective mid to late game so why bother researching it unless I am doing an early-mid game all in play (or defend a late two base all-in toss push)? I might build a couple of tanks to hold off protoss counters with auxilliary stalker support but no siege needed. Plus Thor/Banshee is not exactly tank heavy. The matchup is still the most exciting by far, but it is what it is. Use the early tech to pull ahead. Stay ahead with your bio ball, obviously having a good idea if he is prioritizing colossi or templar early since you pressured and scouted coincidentally. That's what it boils down to for me. Maybe I am just overplaying the game. And a quick side note, while I enjoyed mech in BW (obviously), it wasn't just terran that had two completely distinct outlets for a ground army. I remember reaver/corsair being a legitimately viable build against zerg. Where is that equivalent build in WoL (does colossi drop work in PvZ?)? Why not give protoss two completely distinct ground compositions without spamming from warp gates? Just to be fair about it. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On October 16 2012 12:32 okarchaic wrote: i find it difficult when people call thor banshee "mech". Mech refers to the BW style of using tank vulture (the sc2 equivalent of hellion tank), This is a factory, starport hybrid that relies on the thor to take dmg and the banshees to deal it. Anyways my point being this sort of composition isnt relying on factory based units but it based upon a hybrid of starport factory units which mean you upgrade only half your army making your army much weaker in the later stages of the game relative to compositions where upgrades cover all you units(bio, or factory mech) This composition is energy based army though and as such i feel its much weaker then the regular mech style of play. You sacrifice upgrades that cover your whole composition in addition to having a feedbackable army. I have played with this style though and do think it works in a number of situations that are based on timings. TLDR: this is sky mech, not mech 1) This is not BW. Bw things stay in BW, and in fact BW mech included air as well (hi science vessels) which was an essentiel component of lategame. was it called skymech? 2) This style isn't "thor banshee". Did you read the guide or watch any replay?i stay on 1 port for 15/20 minutes, and i usually stop thors after 4... 3) When people talk about biomech or marine/tank in TvZ for example,that includes marine,tank,thors,marauders, vikings... and for people it's "obvious" to include all these things in the name "marine/tank". I want the same thing to happens to mech, it's stupid to see people acting like this with one style and not with another. If you want to be accurate,it's a mech style, transitionning into skymech if possible.... But no, this is not a "thor/banshee" skymech style (if you think it is..read the guide 3 or 4 more times) I dont sacrifice uppgrade. I constantly uppgrade from my armory, and add another one when starting air uppgrades. The "energy based army" is unavoidable when playing terran, bio as well is relying on ghosts and medivacs... There was also a lot of discussions on the thread about Ghostmech (the said "energy based army") and pure mech play. I'll just assume you didnt really put much efforts into reading the guide/watching replays... @ThyLastPenguin : hehe :D thats my goal ^^ | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
Cheering for you at ESWC Lyyna, GL. | ||
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