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On September 29 2012 20:03 []Phase[] wrote:
How do you stop mass expanding from your opponent? Since you say you arent pushing or microing much, how are you going to prevent your opponent putting up ninja expands, and ending up with a way scarier lategame army in the end? (im thinking about some rediculous compositions with max tech and upgrades availible to him, but due to the economy he can get away with it)
Dont you think you need to atleast throw some helions around the map, I am sure people with good micro might be able to pull off small advantages here and there no? Or do you simply expand a little faster, and everything works out in the end?
I am neither a terran nor protoss player, just curious.
In that kind of situation,i'll
-Build of lots of macros CC. Even if i mainly need gas, i can at least get the same (usually a better) mineral income with lower bases count
-Expand a lot too (if he's mass expanding he has to cut stuff. And its even more true if he tries to tech at the same time)
-Just aim towards a higher tech army, so i can win first battles, giving me some room to expand.
The point here is mainly to be cost effective. I dont care if it's 7 bases vs 4 when he looses twice more ressources than me for example, because at some point he'll have to stop attacking to gather some ressources or get another tech and i'll be able to grab another expand and another and another and then match his eco.
edit : just saw your edit
Well, if he wants to mass expand AND tech to airtoss, he has to cut stuff. I scan a lot, so i'll see it and know i can mass expand. The fact is that, after some point,getting more bases isn't really useful to the protoss player because he has to build probes, so after like 3 or 4 mining bases, his other bases are just dead weight. For me i can just take as many bases i want because my scv are only mining gases at some point, i dont need 80 of them to run even 6 or 7 bases.
So in this scenario i'll just cut my ground production, and play as greedy too, getting less bases, but more orbitals, a bigger army and a lots of turrets.
Even if he's perfectly containing me (which isn't possible if he's mass expanding AND teching to airtoss, i'll just wait until i can have like 160 army supply (+10 repairing scv) on 3/4 bases, and start to secure new bases at this point. He has the choice between figthing versus an army with 30 more supply with a better position, or sacrifice probes too but then if he looses the battle when i try to move out he looses the game because he'll not be able to replenish, while i can just mine with mules
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Just downloaded your latest replay pack. I have the replay timer set off so I had no idea I was about to sit and watch an HOUR long game--and that's WITH fast forwarding through parts! Holy cow--this is so awesome! So funny watching Protoss feel so lost as to what to do. Terran mech is so strong, and somehow you survive the Archon toilets o_O
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^ They do very bad archon toilets. And yeah, BCs, Thors and Ravens and BFH + tanks is an immortal composition.
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I've been watching the replays and almost all toss players at the end go "How do I fucking beat this?". And some getting really angry they can't beat such an immovable object. I do notice you just sitting back a lot (hence the "immovable object") and let the toss/zerg (mostly toss) just attack into you and almost never really moving out. It's like you make them gg out of frustration. Only after destroying 2 deathballs of carrier/HT/chargelot/archon/mothership or BL armies you move out.
I also see a lot of nice touches like a ghost in the main to emp the mommaship when it tries to recall to the main. Pretty fun stuff.
A question though: why don't you harass more with your 4-5 banshees? Since you scan a lot you could wreck entire mineral lines in a second and just move away when the army is out of position. This is for both your TvP and TvZ replays. Maybe you do it in some cases but I haven't seen it yet.
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I dont harass that hard mainly because i'm a really slow player, so i can't really do everything (macroing at home, scouting with hellions,poking with banshees). Also in TvZ i rely on them for defense ,and if they're in his bases, speedlings can just rush towards my base since i use low hellions counts.
Same thing in TvP , i need them for defense,but also, i dont want to loose them to any fast "counter" build (blink for defense, or some hidden HT for feedback or whatever)
If i find a spot to harass with these banshees i use it but i'm a defensive player usually 
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I’m a master terran who mechs in TvP but I don’t really know how to approach a TvP on Antiga: protoss have an easy time getting to four or five base without much opportunities for me to harass (hellions runbys are easy to stop on this map and a few cannons stops the banshees) and at the same time it’s really hard to get past three bases with mech.
I can turtle easily on three bases then either move out (because I only have 3 bases) or let the protoss come. If I don’t screw up the army control the fight should go heavily in my favor but then I feel like I don’t have the economy to remax and kill him or defend a new base.
What’s your usual plan on this map? Maybe getting the center high ground early is a solution, allowing access to the fourth and preventing him from getting it; not sure how easy it is to then defend the three bases behind though.
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Usually i'll just try to max on 3 bases , and once im max, just force a battle by taking middle + others expos at once. Then its all about this one battle in that kind of situation... If you loose it,it's over,if you win it, well it depends of what the protoss is doing. If he's trying a carrier switch you can go and kill him,else just to back in turtle with more bases and get your deathball ^^
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What do you mean you can't have more tanks than orbitals? Does that mean I must get the third before i can build a third tank and etc?
Also, the build order on Warden's guide doesn't say when to build the CC, when exactly do you build it?
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On October 10 2012 06:41 SCRedditor wrote:
What do you mean you can't have more tanks than orbitals? Does that mean I must get the third before i can build a third tank and etc?
Also, the build order on Warden's guide doesn't say when to build the CC, when exactly do you build it?
The tank/orbital thing is an ironic rule that only applies to lategame
About the Warden's build, you get your CC after your starport, but i wouldnt recommand this build anymore, your expo is too delayed (except if you're a really agressive player)
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^ That ''rule'' also confused me to the point where I would never win a TvP because of the thought of that rule...
Lyyna should seriously consider explaining what he types and put a spoiler tag for the explanations, but, meh...
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Lol just watched a few of your replays and I love the APM discrepancy. One on Ohana you had an APM of 70 for the whole game while your opponent was at like 270 XD.
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On October 11 2012 08:02 YumYumGranola wrote:
Lol just watched a few of your replays and I love the APM discrepancy. One on Ohana you had an APM of 70 for the whole game while your opponent was at like 270 XD.
Yup, Lyyna is an incredibly slow player, just like Goody.
Quite embarrassing to have such low apm and be high master, but hey, he is winning vs GM's =).
And nothing else matteerrsss!
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Hey Lynna, just went up against a guy on ladder who I suspect was a student of this thread 
As it was one of a handful of games since bronze/silver (now Plat/almost diamond level) that I've dealt with mech in PvT I was scrambling and winging it the whole time. His hellion harass proved to be a little too effective as my FFs and defenses were a little spotty so my income was heavily stifled all game long. This was likely a huge issue in why I lost, but not the only reason. I've read through this thread to get an idea of what composition is the best one for protoss to react with, as my phoenix/templar/immortal/chargelot got destroyed by tank/thor/banshee/PDD.
Anyway, that's not really my real question, but I wanted to ask how you deal with heavy harass. Obviously you talk about having lots of PFs on your later bases and tanks/thors/such back at home never pushing so you'd be pretty safe, but has phoenix harass or WP harass (with colossus, dt, chargelot, storm drops, etc) ever been used to any great effect against you? If my income had been more stable in my game I was really wanting to get up a void ray or two to target a turret as I moved into his base with a WP and dropped SOMETHING (I was leaning towards immortal/colossus, maybe storm since he had ravens at his front and I was already heavily invested into robo tech). Planning on killing a few buildings or scvs and getting out, going for many small pokes rather than one or two more heavy harassment poke.
Would a MS flyby into in-base recall with a carrier/chargelot (or other equally doom-y) army do anything to your endgame scenario? (coupled with aggression on the opposing front this can be pulled off, even against a good multitasker)
You mentioned that you don't harass with hellions much as you feel you are too slow to do this effectively, but if you were going to plan on that in the midgame to stifle the toss' economy/slow his tech/push, would mass(ish) phoenix do much to fend you off? 8-10 phoenix are relatively easy to get up and are useful against banshees so aren't a wasted investment (neither is stargate tech) so this seems like a reasonable response to me (in theory). What are your thoughts?
P.S. I would totally give you a high five for meching against P all the time. I go mass air against Z every PvZ I play and using those strategies/compositions "that just won't work because they aren't viable" and consistently CRUSHING is so fun, and your mech style in TvP feels very much like the cousin of mass airtoss in PvZ, so I salute your belligerent meching!
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On October 11 2012 08:02 YumYumGranola wrote:
Lol just watched a few of your replays and I love the APM discrepancy. One on Ohana you had an APM of 70 for the whole game while your opponent was at like 270 XD.
Most masters players have an insanely low efficiency with their APM, they just keep spamming differents hotkeys like crazy ... "legit" 200+ Apm players are really rare at my lvl actually (the average being ~~120-150, but still with a not really good efficiency); so looking at apm isn't a good thing there considering i dont spam at all ^^
On October 13 2012 06:26 Kommatiazo wrote:Hey Lynna, just went up against a guy on ladder who I suspect was a student of this thread As it was one of a handful of games since bronze/silver (now Plat/almost diamond level) that I've dealt with mech in PvT I was scrambling and winging it the whole time. His hellion harass proved to be a little too effective as my FFs and defenses were a little spotty so my income was heavily stifled all game long. This was likely a huge issue in why I lost, but not the only reason. I've read through this thread to get an idea of what composition is the best one for protoss to react with, as my phoenix/templar/immortal/chargelot got destroyed by tank/thor/banshee/PDD. Anyway, that's not really my real question, but I wanted to ask how you deal with heavy harass. Obviously you talk about having lots of PFs on your later bases and tanks/thors/such back at home never pushing so you'd be pretty safe, but has phoenix harass or WP harass (with colossus, dt, chargelot, storm drops, etc) ever been used to any great effect against you? If my income had been more stable in my game I was really wanting to get up a void ray or two to target a turret as I moved into his base with a WP and dropped SOMETHING (I was leaning towards immortal/colossus, maybe storm since he had ravens at his front and I was already heavily invested into robo tech). Planning on killing a few buildings or scvs and getting out, going for many small pokes rather than one or two more heavy harassment poke. Would a MS flyby into in-base recall with a carrier/chargelot (or other equally doom-y) army do anything to your endgame scenario? (coupled with aggression on the opposing front this can be pulled off, even against a good multitasker) You mentioned that you don't harass with hellions much as you feel you are too slow to do this effectively, but if you were going to plan on that in the midgame to stifle the toss' economy/slow his tech/push, would mass(ish) phoenix do much to fend you off? 8-10 phoenix are relatively easy to get up and are useful against banshees so aren't a wasted investment (neither is stargate tech) so this seems like a reasonable response to me (in theory). What are your thoughts? P.S. I would totally give you a high five for meching against P all the time. I go mass air against Z every PvZ I play and using those strategies/compositions "that just won't work because they aren't viable" and consistently CRUSHING is so fun, and your mech style in TvP feels very much like the cousin of mass airtoss in PvZ, so I salute your belligerent meching!
Some players are able to do some damage with harass,but that's mainly because im a really slow/easily distracted players. the problem is that,early game, if you harass, a good enough player will know he can take units off his front door (since you cant have enough stuff early, except an allin that should get scouted), and later in the game,there is both missile turrets and sensor towers ring, meaning you cant instantly drop, and if you try to destroy turrets, his army will be there in time to defend. I dont really fear harass because it's really hard to do damage against a good defensive player, and i nfact, if the protoss kills a few SCV or stuff i dont care,i'll just turtle harder and wait to get more bases.
Actually my special "addition" to most mech styles is the fact that i always keep a ghost at recall locations (+ sensor + missile towers ) so it's not possible to do it versus a careful player.but if you can snipe his sensor tower/ghost and go in like 30 sec after this, it can a really good thing to do (but then recall out. you cant fight IN his base, your clumped army will die in seconds.=
Phenix is a good idea versus tanks or harass heavy opening. however versus thors opening, going phenix in midgame will kill you, because you'll not be able to handle any thor-based push. But if you are sure your opponent isn't going for thors early, you can afford to take the risk (just make like 4 phenix, more is useless)
IF you really want to harass, i suggest things like storm drops. 1 speed WP with 1 templar, drop it, 2 storms, let it die. it can do enough damage if you get a saturated expansion, the problem is that you have to start doing it before the CC farm construction start.
Hehe,thanks. In fact when i offrace as P, i also love to do some air play versus zergs (Colossus/Carriers for the win. Gateways units are useless!)
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Turrets and sensor towers stop warp prisms. Phoenixes can't be to effective since we have thors and turrets. If your mothership is moving out on the map I can kill it before it gets to my main. If it does get there, it's running into turrets.
Random groups of zlots or individual dts are easily stopped by walls, sensor towers, turrets, pfs, etc.
The best form of harass protoss has lategame is using hit and run carrier attacks using recall just as the terran army catches up.
In the midgame protoss can get use out of blink stalkers if they're distracting with a colos army, but again good scouting and the existing defenses typically should suffice to block that.
I personally often use multiple small groups of hellions to harass, and the most effective defense against them are walls of pylons/gateways and maybe some cannons. What you really have to worry about (at least vs me) are nuke harass, especially once I can start to nuke in different spots, and you need a good cannon spread and extra obs to fight those. Those hellions though don't need much multi-task to be useful. Their primary goal is to scout your tech and army composition. Probe kills are a bonus. So you killing them gives me info. Trying to fight hellion harass by harassing yourself isn't a good idea since the bulk of my army is already in a defensive position. Being aggressive with your army might limit the amount of hellions I'm willing to use for this purpose, but won't outright stop them.
Storm drops can be effective if they come soon enough (before the turret perimeter is up), since they do their damage instantly (whereas stalkers or zlots or dts need time to kill shit which gives me plenty of time to go kill them).
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As a Protoss, my preferred harassment against Mech play is to get a Stargate (which I try to get against most 1-1-1 variants and factory play in general), make a handful of Phoenixes, and then use a combination of Phoenixes and a Bulldog Rush (Zealots dropped on tanks/thors). While your opponent only has 1-2 Thors and is much more focused on Banshees/Hellions/Tanks at that point in the game, you can magic box a Thor with the Phoenixes and drop Zealots onto it, then flip the Warp Prism over and start warping in more units. The Phoenixes can grav lift Hellions and a nearby Tank or two temporarily while you deal with that 1-2 Thor(s), and then you use the Phoenixes to kill off all the Hellions quickly because they're light units.
It's a really strong timing window, but it's also somewhat map-dependent. Still, the upside is that you can use Phoenixes to tank Turret shots for your Warp Prism and then really abuse air control to get right into his main and start warping in units onto the production. There isn't a lot of anti-air at that stage for a Mech build, and this is an especially devastating 2-base push if you can put an Immortal or two into the Prism before the rush. It won't win every single game on every single map, but it's a pretty nifty timing to get in and potentially do massive damage with clutch grav lifts and a high damage output.
As an aside, I do hope that all this additional Hellion/Tank/Banshee-->macro play starts showing up more in GSL and other tournaments, because eventually it's going to lead to straight mech and I really just enjoy the games that Protoss vs Mech produces. A really good GhostMech army is a mental challenge to fight, and I miss that after dealing with the same exact MMMVG composition every single game.
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That was a good session, didn't drop a single game but 1!
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Lynna and others contributing, just wanted to say "thanks" for the work and explanations put into this thread. I have found Mech to be my favorite (and most survivable) composition since reading this ~4 weeks ago and practicing with it since. I no longer lose to every Gold/Plat Protoss I encounter, and actually have a decent chance at not only survival, but a victory.
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EPT
