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On July 09 2012 07:32 Tppz! wrote:
maybe im doing something wrong but if he expandsa lot he puts down some cannons and i cant harass at all.
how do you harass bases with cannons? hellions/banshees/ravens are bad. only nuke could be good but i dont have the gas for this
expanding myself doesnt work cause im too spread out then if i dont want to loose my expansions to some blinkstalkers
That's why you need to spot these expansions early,to be able to harass it a bit before there is too much defenses. and you can also do "pre-emptive harassment" , putting turrets on next expansions/hellions/etc
Well,expanding yourself is ok. there is good spots to put sensor towers on every maps ,allowing you to secure the whole area (except on TdA, but well,horrible map for T overall).
And if you feel too unsafe, just get macro orbital,and wait until the area is clear to set up your expansions.
Also, don't fear if he's trying to mass expo : you can pretty much see the win in front of you,as your army is going to be way better lategame.
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Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
User was strategy forum banned for a terrible history here.
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On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote:
Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work.
Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 09 2012 17:38 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote:
Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work. Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
He is right though on somewhat. On maps like Cloud Kingdom I really feel out of my depth. The second the Protoss sees I went for anything except a CC first into mech they just drop a quick third (pre 8 minute) and they just slowly saturate their 3 bases. Then you're basically in the shits since you have no idea what the toss's economy is unless you burn tons of scans because you have no clue if he has 46, 54, 60, or even going for 70+ probes. I remember a game where Naniwa completely mindfucks his opponent by faking a 2 colo ~60 probe attack I think against byun on Cloud Kingdom, and now the terran who has 3 bases cant move out since if you do move out against a low econ protoss you will be burned and insta-lose vs a 160+ supply army. Turns out Naniwa went for a fast 4th and teched to voids and whenever byun try to push out Naniwa would just be stubborn and back away slowly while abusing warpin pylon to harrass Byun's 3rd. By then the toss could have voids, or 3/3 ht colo, or basically anything he wanted. Honestly, on maps like Cloud Kingdom if the toss has somewhat of an idea of what mech can macro out in whatever time and abused it its basically hell on earth come 15 minutes where the terran cant move out, is being constantly harrassed and has a giant timebomb ticking for the when the toss wants to fight and remax into win against you.
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I commend you on your mentality.
Always keen to read posts like these.
: ]
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On July 09 2012 17:38 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote:
Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work. Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
Agreed.
"Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP"
Orly, why and how did Hack beat Lure on Ohana then in TSL4 Qualifer? Ohana is also a great mech map.
Map these days usually aren't nearly as easy to blink into the main (yay!)
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You need a starport for raven anyways, so here is how you punish fast protoss third. Suicide hellion drops. Double pronged hellion drops get even more.
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I'm not sure if this has been asked before but I'm still skeptical of this mech style, I have tried mech before to very little success. What i ask is this:
From what i understand the reason that traditional MMMGV TvP is so successful is usually because of it's mobility and map control which allows the terran to get and sustain a base advantage. How do you deal with the immobility of mech? I feel as if mech is so much less mobile for a menial increase in power. I found while playing mech that I could not effectively punish a greedy protoss and that the composition was very delicate. A thor/banshee/hellion combo could certainly be fast but in my experience phoenix/colossus is a common response to all mech styles, it seems to counter it extremely hard.
One of the things i have brought up about mech's disabilities is the role of the tank. I know first hand that tanks can be very powerful in TvP but only with large sim cities and when sieged, given a less mobile army how do you divide your forces to deal with harassment and how do you push out properly? It seems as if you would have to leap frog extremely slowly in order to not be killed.
I guess the best question to ask of all is "What is the most powerful counter to your build?" All builds have a counter, what is mech's? What should you be most careful of when trying this?
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Guys, I have been thinking and, I reckon it is a good time to somehow buff the siege tank.
What I propose is to increase the build time back to 50 seconds, and even nerf the HP back to 150
But BUFF THE DAMAGE!~ lol
Siege tank's have been nerfed furiously !!
First Siege Mode damage was decreased from 60 to 50
and then from 50 to 35 (+15 vs Armored) with the upgrades changing from +5 to +3 (+2 vs Armored)
Also the supply cost increased from 2 to 3
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On July 09 2012 17:38 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote:
Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work. Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL"
well for me it seems like this guys is right about what he is saying, i could also beat a lot of players i face in ladder with some strategys that wouldn t work against even people...so just because u win with it, doesn t actually mean its good....your guide is for sure a good guide, and its great to have ppl looking at things from other perspectives, but alone the fact that no pro is playing mech vs p and the fact that even goody (the king of mech) is nowadays playing bio against toss, tells the hole story, unfortunately.
so this guide is a strategy for mid players, they can use it and win because a lot of toss arent used to this style and dont know how to counter this, but it will never work in high masters (unless you have gm skill and pull it off this way)
and i HAVE read your guid btw ;-)
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I play Terran on the masters NA ladder. My style is mech for all three matchups, i find TvP mech the most bizzare because its either i win the fight so easily and do enough probe damage to max out faster and take the map. Or protoss crushes me cost efficiently with tons of chargelots and kills my CC's across the map, as planetarys dont do anything to a protoss deathball. Mech is good when u have an edge and push it all the way to the late game, i have trouble sometimes getting there without protoss getting too far ahead. However i am differing between 2 styles where i go 2 base ghost or go into 3 base with just thor seige tank hellion. As for toss scouting you going mech, try using my opener i go marauder hellion + expand into cloaked banshee. He'll have to assume you're 1-1-1 all inning cause u switch the tech lab and reactor after the opening and hell have to keep scouting minimal cause of cloaked banshees. I think the general idea of throwing multiple things at toss helps mech tvp well. Such as ghosts and nukes, bf hellino drops, plantary chokes, sensor towers. Etc. The protoss doesnt know what to do, you can contain him till you max then turtle up, hell be forced to enage. and ur army is favored if protoss has to attack into it. Anyways i rage when i lose cause sometimes i dont know where protoss gets the money for their army cause mech is expensive especially if u have to pump vikings tanks and ghosts at the same time. I believe if you lose your whole army and your going mech, it hurts a way lot more then MMM. you need to do damage equally cause toss has good late game warp in capabilities. If you send ghosts out he forces money on cannons and such. I also find mech hard but taking the middle makes it a little easier. I still struggle on some maps if i dont end the game early around like the 20 minute mark or 25.
User was warned for this post
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On July 10 2012 11:33 uzushould wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 17:38 Lyyna wrote:On July 09 2012 08:15 Starshaped wrote:
Mech only really works on one ladder map, namely Daybreak. It can work on Entombed Valley and Cloud Kingdom, too.
Any other map is suicide to play mech TvP because you cannot deal with Protoss mobility. Blink/collo or just blink harass in general will lose you the game every single time. So, on these maps you can only really do 2base mech all-ins, and 2base mech all-ins aren't all that strong.
I mech in every matchup but in TvP I usually just do some 1base stuff on the maps where mech doesn't work. Guy, seriously,if you want to post something like this . . don't do it here,where i can show you tons of replays on every map of me winning with mech vP.. actually you're just yelling "HI I JUST READ THE TITLE BUT I DIDNT LOOK AT ANY REPLAY OR EVEN AT THE GUIDE LOL" well for me it seems like this guys is right about what he is saying, i could also beat a lot of players i face in ladder with some strategys that wouldn t work against even people...so just because u win with it, doesn t actually mean its good....your guide is for sure a good guide, and its great to have ppl looking at things from other perspectives, but alone the fact that no pro is playing mech vs p and the fact that even goody (the king of mech) is nowadays playing bio against toss, tells the hole story, unfortunately. so this guide is a strategy for mid players, they can use it and win because a lot of toss arent used to this style and dont know how to counter this, but it will never work in high masters (unless you have gm skill and pull it off this way) and i HAVE read your guid btw ;-)
Disagree, goody was not the best TvP mecher, or at least not significantly. There's a mid-high (idk which, i've also heard he was GM, maybe he dropped recently?) korean player "gorapadong", his mech build has been used in GSL (and won more than it has lost) by players including Sound, Hack, MKP, and Byun. Also Hack has been showing macro TvP mech games recently.
If mech is able to be played at high levels and there are no clear weaknesses, I would say it is viable. Well, would it be worth doing though instead of bio? Well I guess that's up to each person's individual opinion/decision. Well, what if protoss just don't know how to abuse Mech since mech isn't used often? I think that high level players would know, they must have had played mech many times before as they play ~30-40 games per day. If they are not showing the clear weaknesses of mech in high level play, I do not think there are any (I do not believe there are any, and Lynna agrees I think -- for example, all this stuff like "immortal/HT hardcounters mech!" or "Blink stalkers counter mech!" etc., aren't exactly true, because there are answers to them).
Well what IF they don't know how to play against mech (there are more complex things beyond that that are not discovered yet because no one plays mech extensively so they too don't need to learn how to fight mech extensively)? My answer would be, that's not something that needs to be worried about, because the game/metagame is always changing. If there are presently nothing against mech, then why not play it? You could predict that players would "figure out" how to play against mech, but what if there is a way to play against that way? Each MU even with Bio has constantly been evolving; it's all based on risks/reward, and how to gain reward or punish risks has been changing based on the metagame and its current trends.
Anyways, that's just my thought process, and why I play mech.
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On July 10 2012 12:07 sinisterrtheory wrote:
I play Terran on the masters NA ladder. My style is mech for all three matchups, i find TvP mech the most bizzare because its either i win the fight so easily and do enough probe damage to max out faster and take the map. Or protoss crushes me cost efficiently with tons of chargelots and kills my CC's across the map, as planetarys dont do anything to a protoss deathball. Mech is good when u have an edge and push it all the way to the late game, i have trouble sometimes getting there without protoss getting too far ahead. However i am differing between 2 styles where i go 2 base ghost or go into 3 base with just thor seige tank hellion. As for toss scouting you going mech, try using my opener i go marauder hellion + expand into cloaked banshee. He'll have to assume you're 1-1-1 all inning cause u switch the tech lab and reactor after the opening and hell have to keep scouting minimal cause of cloaked banshees. I think the general idea of throwing multiple things at toss helps mech tvp well. Such as ghosts and nukes, bf hellino drops, plantary chokes, sensor towers. Etc. The protoss doesnt know what to do, you can contain him till you max then turtle up, hell be forced to enage. and ur army is favored if protoss has to attack into it. Anyways i rage when i lose cause sometimes i dont know where protoss gets the money for their army cause mech is expensive especially if u have to pump vikings tanks and ghosts at the same time. I believe if you lose your whole army and your going mech, it hurts a way lot more then MMM. you need to do damage equally cause toss has good late game warp in capabilities. If you send ghosts out he forces money on cannons and such. I also find mech hard but taking the middle makes it a little easier. I still struggle on some maps if i dont end the game early around like the 20 minute mark or 25.
In this hardly understandable post, you at least make it clear that you are using this thread to post your own novice ideas about TvP mech and not reading how Lyyna approaches it.
** Protoss crushes me cost efficiently with tons of chargelots - Covered to death
** Try using my opener i go marauder hellion - This is not build from a marauder opening
** Throwing multiple things at toss helps mech tvp well - We're not loading Terran solutions in a shotgun and firing them into threads. We're discussing SPECIFICALLY the late game mech ground/air compositions that make you have the better army from 2base to 3base + macro and onward. Reported for terrible stream-of-consciousness approach to strategy, and bad posting habits in SC2 Strategy in general.
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In this hardly understandable post, you at least make it clear that you are using this thread to post your own novice ideas about TvP mech and not reading how Lyyna approaches it.
** Protoss crushes me cost efficiently with tons of chargelots - Covered to death
** Try using my opener i go marauder hellion - This is not build from a marauder opening
** Throwing multiple things at toss helps mech tvp well - We're not loading Terran solutions in a shotgun and firing them into threads. We're discussing SPECIFICALLY the late game mech ground/air compositions that make you have the better army from 2base to 3base + macro and onward. Reported for terrible stream-of-consciousness approach to strategy, and bad posting habits in SC2 Strategy in general.
You assumed i never read Lynna's post i have. I am posting my input so maybe Lynna or some other mech TvPer can reply? I understand Lynna doesnt do the same opener but we both have the same 2 base building set ups, with cloaked banshees. Just giving out my ideas. Why am i being reported, im just putting my opinions in. Have a nice day.
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Bomber recently went mech vs choya during ipl 5 kr regional qualifiers (http://gosugamers.net/starcraft2/downloads.php?cat=4&id=655) on daybreak.
He went 1rax cc tank/siege asap, cc, reactor reactor on 2/3 fact, tech reactor on 4/5 fact, ghost; 8tank then only thor; double ups. The build struck me as being the mech equivalent of the current standard bio build. Instead of stim reactor reactor then more techlab, ghost, double ups, he went siege reactor reactor etc.
Harrier went mech in the tsl4 kr qualifier #5 vs killer (http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/heyoka/TSL4/TSL4_Q15_KR5_Ro128.zip) on daybreak.
He went reactorax cc tank tank siege fact fact 3rd gas reactor reactor fagflame and kept up marine production for a push on 5tank 8hellion 22marine. During the push he expo'd, added 2fact, then got an armory for +1 attack. As he took his 3rd he put all 5facts on techlabs and made only tank. He also started ghost production around then. When +1 finished he got a 2nd armory for 2-1; and got +1 ship attack delaying +3 armour. His lategame sucked though; he made a lot of vikings and imo overproduced thor which prevented him from ever getting a meaningful bc count.
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Thanks for these replays and a great guide to mech for TvP. The myth that you just can't use mech vs. Toss or its an autoloss, just needs to be busted. Maybe in top masters to pro, but for average players? Anything's possible.
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On July 13 2012 04:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:Bomber recently went mech vs choya during ipl 5 kr regional qualifiers ( http://gosugamers.net/starcraft2/downloads.php?cat=4&id=655) on daybreak. He went 1rax cc tank/siege asap, cc, reactor reactor on 2/3 fact, tech reactor on 4/5 fact, ghost; 8tank then only thor; double ups. The build struck me as being the mech equivalent of the current standard bio build. Instead of stim reactor reactor then more techlab, ghost, double ups, he went siege reactor reactor etc. Harrier went mech in the tsl4 kr qualifier #5 vs killer ( http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/heyoka/TSL4/TSL4_Q15_KR5_Ro128.zip) on daybreak. He went reactorax cc tank tank siege fact fact 3rd gas reactor reactor fagflame and kept up marine production for a push on 5tank 8hellion 22marine. During the push he expo'd, added 2fact, then got an armory for +1 attack. As he took his 3rd he put all 5facts on techlabs and made only tank. He also started ghost production around then. When +1 finished he got a 2nd armory for 2-1; and got +1 ship attack delaying +3 armour. His lategame sucked though; he made a lot of vikings and imo overproduced thor which prevented him from ever getting a meaningful bc count.
Thanks a lot for noting these. Second one sounds like gorapadong build or at least very similar. That's very interesting, to put all 5 facts on tech labs... Gonna check these out 
On July 13 2012 05:47 Miket2424 wrote:
Thanks for these replays and a great guide to mech for TvP. The myth that you just can't use mech vs. Toss or its an autoloss, just needs to be busted. Maybe in top masters to pro, but for average players? Anything's possible.
Yeah, i really really hate this myth. Soo many people are so badly informed (or just not informed at all haha). Whenever one of us knows this myth is simply a myth, no one trusts us and believes that we couldn't possibly have done more research than them and thus possibly be [more] correct <_>. (And when we list games for evidence they either aren't used to the mech styles and hence think the game is not a good enough example or they just repeat the "mech doesn't work" stuff)
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Hey guys glad to see this thread is still going strong!
Anyways, thought we could discuss how to position your Sieged Tanks vs Protoss.
I started noticing that doing it how you do against Zerg, in a line perpendicular to them, is definitely not the best way. Protoss with Shields, higher ranged units, and things like Blink, can simply move in, tank some shots, snipe a couple, and move back out and recharge.
Now besides having tanks on cliffs and such, I am not 100% sure of the best way to position them against Protoss. Right now, my idea is to have them in a Triangle with one vertex (corner of the triangle) facing the direction you expect them to attack into.
I made a picture of what I'm talking about: http://imgur.com/itNxF
What do you guys think? What is the best way to position Tanks vs Protoss?
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On July 14 2012 02:15 ZjiublingZ wrote:Hey guys glad to see this thread is still going strong! Anyways, thought we could discuss how to position your Sieged Tanks vs Protoss. I started noticing that doing it how you do against Zerg, in a line perpendicular to them, is definitely not the best way. Protoss with Shields, higher ranged units, and things like Blink, can simply move in, tank some shots, snipe a couple, and move back out and recharge. Now besides having tanks on cliffs and such, I am not 100% sure of the best way to position them against Protoss. Right now, my idea is to have them in a Triangle with one vertex (corner of the triangle) facing the direction you expect them to attack into. I made a picture of what I'm talking about: http://imgur.com/itNxFWhat do you guys think? What is the best way to position Tanks vs Protoss?
against zerg i totally agree with your graphic and you can leave maybe like 3 Tanks at the highground on CK but you can not do that against protoss. In fact, in the TvP matchup my opinion is little bit different
I always cluster my tanks out of 2 reasons:
1. you have to move them more for defense against protoss because you need every single tank to maximize the spash damage
2. if you cluster your tanks the splash damage is bigger and more efficient against the protoss untis
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On July 14 2012 02:52 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 02:15 ZjiublingZ wrote:Hey guys glad to see this thread is still going strong! Anyways, thought we could discuss how to position your Sieged Tanks vs Protoss. I started noticing that doing it how you do against Zerg, in a line perpendicular to them, is definitely not the best way. Protoss with Shields, higher ranged units, and things like Blink, can simply move in, tank some shots, snipe a couple, and move back out and recharge. Now besides having tanks on cliffs and such, I am not 100% sure of the best way to position them against Protoss. Right now, my idea is to have them in a Triangle with one vertex (corner of the triangle) facing the direction you expect them to attack into. I made a picture of what I'm talking about: http://imgur.com/itNxFWhat do you guys think? What is the best way to position Tanks vs Protoss? against zerg i totally agree with your graphic and you can leave maybe like 3 Tanks at the highground on CK but you can not do that against protoss. In fact, in the TvP matchup my opinion is little bit different I always cluster my tanks out of 2 reasons: 1. you have to move them more for defense against protoss because you need every single tank to maximize the spash damage 2. if you cluster your tanks the splash damage is bigger and more efficient against the protoss untis
Hmm... I'm not sure I agree with Clustering your tanks vs Protoss. It can be good as you said for coordinating shots in one area. But it also can make it very easy for a Protoss to Blink/Charge right on top of all of them. And it allows for Colossus to maximize their damage against them (also doesn't help vs Storms but they aren't really an issue vs Mech). That's why I like the Triangle/3 point formation. Your tanks are close enough that you can still focus fire if the opponent is within their firing range (9), but it also helps deal with Blink/Charge. If they Blink/Charge to one of your points, your other two points can still fire on them safely. For this reason I generally make the 'forward' point on the triangle the weakest in tank count.
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EPT
