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On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition.
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
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On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
it's not stupid, it's how you play against mech in as any race. and it works.
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I would say that playing bio against Protoss is stupid as fuck because the protoss hardcounter you with storm and collossi. Oh wait ?!
You're messing it here guys, let's stick to the point and please, ffs, avoid your dumb argumentations about the viability, we're not there to talk about it, we're here to improve to guide and discuss about possible variations.
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For those of you talking about abusing mech immobility:
Here is a game I just played with a Protoss trying to abuse my immobility using Blink Stalkers and Colossi on two bases. I didn't even do a great job defending, but I think you get the idea.
Granted, this wasn't late game, but if it were late game I would have had a stronger defensive position in the middle of the map that he couldn't abuse.
http://drop.sc/153584
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On April 04 2012 22:38 McTeazy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:
Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat.
Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP. it's not stupid, it's how you play against mech in as any race. and it works.
I agree. I think you misunderstood what I said.
I told the skeptical guy that he is theory crafting whereas Lyyna's style just works.
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On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
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On April 05 2012 00:33 Hider wrote:
I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
Finally someone smart.
Yes we can theorycraft to imagine what a perfect reaction to the perfect execution of this build could be, and this can be really interesting, we all agree on this point.
But the facts are here : for the moment, and until a protoss figures solid way to counter it, this style really destroy almost all protoss even at master levels. It will take time for them to train against it, get used to recognize the style with the scouting informations they'll have, and react almost perfectly at the best timings possible. Until then, I find it pretty dumb that people keep throwing blind "it's not viable" without even seeing the success of all of us & examining the replays. At this time, Protoss players don't have solid standard answers to it so it's viable.
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On April 05 2012 12:14 pimsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:33 Hider wrote:
I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not.
However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible.
In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle. Finally someone smart. Yes we can theorycraft to imagine what a perfect reaction to the perfect execution of this build could be, and this can be really interesting, we all agree on this point. But the facts are here : for the moment, and until a protoss figures solid way to counter it, this style really destroy almost all protoss even at master levels. It will take time for them to train against it, get used to recognize the style with the scouting informations they'll have, and react almost perfectly at the best timings possible. Until then, I find it pretty dumb that people keep throwing blind "it's not viable" without even seeing the success of all of us & examining the replays. At this time, Protoss players don't have solid standard answers to it so it's viable.
Yeh I completely agree. I think most of the ppl who say mech is not viable hasn't actually watched the replays, because then they would quickly realize how strong mech can be in a straight up fight. I think a lot of people who has tested mech previosuly (including my self) would just go hellion/tank heavy, which obv. just dies to a lot of things, and then we would become to aggressive to quickly and die to chargelots warpins (after a battle).
Regarding theorycrafting on what protoss player should do. IMO they need to be a ton better to coordinate their harass play. In a lot of Lyynas replays the toss just stood still and did nothing him self (he would even suicide probes him self which is just stupid). In other replays the toss would realize that he was suppoed to abuse the lack of mobility. But he would just be way to slow and way to inefficient when harassing. But as you say, this is a thing protoss players need to learn. Right now they do not how a lot of experience on dealing with mech.
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@Hider : The fact is that even when the protoss is good enough to go into multi-harass thing, its still really hard for him. He has to avoid sensor towers and turrets rings, which is already hard. And usually when he blinks up or use a prism in a base protected by the sensor , a good number of hellions and air will already be on the way
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(could a mod please add the [G] tag please, so people know it's actually a guide and not a Discussion on the subject or something like that? Thanks!)
The next replay pack will be delayed, as my computer had some problems and i dont know if i still have replays of the 2 last weeks T_T
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yesterday, a protoss used his mothership to recall in my base. ( I had a turret ring but he still manage to recall)
Do you think its a good idea to keep a ghost(EMP) in my base if I see a mothership on the field.
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On April 05 2012 00:33 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP. I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not. However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible. In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle.
Well it's hard for theorycrafting to contribute to any discussion (at least not significantly) without replays. Replays replays replays (or VODs), is what the SC2 strategy forum guidelines advise you to bring with any argument. Though like you said, some can be helpful, while most isn't. But lynna is a pretty high level player with some good replays, so at this point I don't think any theorycrafting will be too convincing of anything.
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On April 08 2012 00:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 00:33 Hider wrote:On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP. I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not. However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible. In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle. Well it's hard for theorycrafting to contribute to any discussion (at least not significantly) without replays. Replays replays replays (or VODs), is what the SC2 strategy forum guidelines advise you to bring with any argument. Though like you said, some can be helpful, while most isn't. But lynna is a pretty high level player with some good replays, so at this point I don't think any theorycrafting will be too convincing of anything.
I think its a good idea to theorycraft based on actual games. Like in a specific game one could try to theorycraft what would happen if the toss did X or Y, and then one could go on to analyze the best response from the mech player.
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Lol toss may have the advantage of mobility but few will know how to abuse it. Who do you think they are? Terrans? Up until like masters the toss is gonna be like wait... I cant just storm and a-move? Uh... GG
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Gyro_SC24-08-2012 · 00:46
yesterday, a protoss used his mothership to recall in my base. ( I had a turret ring but he still manage to recall)
Do you think its a good idea to keep a ghost(EMP) in my base if I see a mothership on the field.
Yeah sure why not? Granted, you are almost never going to see that...
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On April 08 2012 01:17 Inquisitor1323 wrote:Show nested quote + Gyro_SC24-08-2012 · 00:46
yesterday, a protoss used his mothership to recall in my base. ( I had a turret ring but he still manage to recall)
Do you think its a good idea to keep a ghost(EMP) in my base if I see a mothership on the field.
Yeah sure why not? Granted, you are almost never going to see that...
almost never going to see that ? Do you remember the arbiter tactic in bw? If you mech a lot of protoss will try to recall in your base. I just don't know if keeping a ghost in my base is the best solution.
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@Gyro, Basically if the protoss try to abuse mass recall, just get 1/2 sensor towers in your "edge bases" with 1 ghost for each
About theorycrating : Personally i'm really good at theorycrafting, and this is why i'm able to do build like this. The problem is that a lot of people will not be able to do it well, and will still try to theorycraft stuff even when its obvious they're doing it wrong.
So theorycrafting is ok as long as you do it well . . .
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On April 08 2012 01:40 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 01:17 Inquisitor1323 wrote: Gyro_SC24-08-2012 · 00:46
yesterday, a protoss used his mothership to recall in my base. ( I had a turret ring but he still manage to recall)
Do you think its a good idea to keep a ghost(EMP) in my base if I see a mothership on the field.
Yeah sure why not? Granted, you are almost never going to see that... almost never going to see that ? Do you remember the arbiter tactic in bw? If you mech a lot of protoss will try to recall in your base. I just don't know if keeping a ghost in my base is the best solution.
Well most likely you would need 2-3 ghosts late game, as he you will be spread out over alot of expansions. But I still think its fine, as your army still is much stronger in a straight up fight.
An alternative is to invest in like 15 turrets instead of just 2-5.
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EPT
