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On April 09 2012 08:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:21 LloydPGM wrote:
okay man, build your early tanks and get stomped, you seem smarter that everyone else here. Watch gorapadong's replays. He's played against early stargate. He just gets an early starport making a couple vikings without reactor, puts 1 turret at each base, then pushes out like usual anyways. He has enough marines and knows the colossi/HT tech will be delayed, and he can use the vikings later once colossi come out so it's not like he "wastes" those vikings. What lynna said about tanks vs thors makes sense... their use is sort of similar in TvZ too. I haven't really thought about what it means to get tanks or thors first. Anyway yeah gorapadong's 3-4 fact build is indeed aggressive, allowing you to apply a lot of pressure and delay protoss's third for a long time. That just uses tanks and hellions. But with cloak banshee opening (either after expansion or before or whatever), you can go choose either thors or tanks, which is an advantage of gorapadong's opening. Obviously banshee marine tank is pretty strong and the banshees keep the protoss at bay, and as a long as you have a wall with bunker+marine tanks should be about as effective as thors. But if it's a map like Metalopolis, where the natural is hard to hold, I think Thors is a better idea. (Unless maybe you spawn close air position, since you can sit at the watch tower and fortify that area with tanks, so that protoss has to go all the way around the map, you can see that in Illusions's replays, like the one on Day9 daily lol). Maybe another way that can help you decide tanks or thors is, if you open banshee first (1 base cloak banshee or gasless expand into cloak banshee), you can scout his tech with the banshees then you can decide thor or tank. If he's going for templar tech, thors are probably better (you don't have too many hellions to kill zealots yet, and Banshee DPS is high but not high enough, but maybe someone will disagree with me since it means they have no good antiair, but they could just canon up at home with a couple HT right?). Against robo tech, I think both thor and tank would be good ideas?
I think we need to be more specific. What kind of exact stalker pressure is the tank heavy play weak against? Some sort of heavy gate pressure on 2 bases? Blink stalkers (1 or 2 bases) or ?
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@Yoshi : Imo this is more a personal preference depending of your midgame followup rather than a "reactionnary" tech. Personally i choose thors because they are good at everything (tank a lot, deal a lof of damage,a bit more mobile than tanks . . .) and because they fit well a 2/3 bases defense situation even in low number, while still allowing to punish super greedy protoss. Early tanks makes you (imo) more vulnerable to blink harass and immo/zealot push when you dont have a lot of these, but get better once you reach a good amount and grab your first sensor towers
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Ah, ok thanks  So thors are more forgiving and flexible, while getting tanks first is a bit riskier at at the beginning but your army size will get stronger quicker due to getting tanks earlier.
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I don't think getting tanks first is riskier. Against blink harass, tanks are really useful because you can zone the harass out in a way that you cannot do with thors.
Very few Protosses will blink all of their stalkers directly into tank fire, and those that do will take more damage overall (because blink causes stalkers to clump a bit and take more damage from tank splash) compared to a thor-based defense. Thors also would have to run around a lot to handle the blink attacks, while a smaller number of tanks can cover a larger area because of their range.
The thors are a bit sturdier, but like I said the tanks discourage the Protoss from engaging in the first place. I've never really run into a 1 base blink play (I think it would be vulnerable to cloaked banshees and bunker defense upon scouting), but I've faced many Protosses who tried to get blink off of two bases and harass, as well as those who went for colossus pushes and combined them with blink play trying to abuse my immobility. I posted a replay a few pages ago demonstrating this:
http://drop.sc/153584
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Ah, good point. So that's why on a map like Shakuras Plateau, it's usually better (if you open fast expand) to get tanks before banshees, so you can defend vs blink harass, which i feel is pretty strong on that map.
Also I just don't get it but if you do a tank hellion marine push (like the 4 fact one) how are you supposed to micro? It doesn't seem the koreans target the immortals first. I tried doing that and the zealots rape me, especially with FF. It raped MKP as well on dual site though. Now i'm targeting the sentry/stalkers with tanks and marine/hellion targetting the zealots, i figure that as long as the zealots and stalkers die you can run your next wave of hellions in to kill lots of probes since immortals are slow and... really don't kill hellions very fast. Which is what MKP did. But I wonder if, then, getting more than 1 immortal is a "good" or "bad" idea, vs getting colossus. 1 Immortal takes forever to kill with that composition with good force fields. 2 might be overkill?
Same with a marine tank banshee force, i shift a click all the immortals/colossus first, then target the immortals/colossus with tanks, and with marines I just kite backwards. Is this proper?
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When I do my Marine/Tank/Hellion/Banshee push, I target Colossus first with tanks as long as they are near stalkers. The splash from the tanks combined with the Colossus' ability to walk over Protoss units means this usually maximizes my splash.
My second priority is always stalkers, and they take first priority if the Colossi are not on top of them. My first goal is always to eliminate the stalkers, and often the Protoss immediately disengages when they realize that they have no AA left to deal with banshees.
With ghost-less mech, I don't think you should focus too much on immortals. It sounds counter-intuitive, I know, but they are RARELY the scary part of a Protoss' composition for me.
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From a Plat league perspective (for what its worth) I use my banshees to focus down immortals/colossus and let the rest of my army auto fire. I realize they should likely take care of the stalkers but I feel if I'm focusing down the immortals and colossus then the tank/hellion/thor can mop up the ground forces (usually).
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On April 10 2012 05:05 Dragonspear wrote:
From a Plat league perspective (for what its worth) I use my banshees to focus down immortals/colossus and let the rest of my army auto fire. I realize they should likely take care of the stalkers but I feel if I'm focusing down the immortals and colossus then the tank/hellion/thor can mop up the ground forces (usually).
Auto firing tanks onto charglots means your tanks kill your own army. You need to focus tanks on something that is not going to self splash you
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GoOdy's old TvP comes to mind redaing this. Hope we'll see more mech TvP in the future
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On April 10 2012 05:16 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:05 Dragonspear wrote:
From a Plat league perspective (for what its worth) I use my banshees to focus down immortals/colossus and let the rest of my army auto fire. I realize they should likely take care of the stalkers but I feel if I'm focusing down the immortals and colossus then the tank/hellion/thor can mop up the ground forces (usually). Auto firing tanks onto charglots means your tanks kill your own army. You need to focus tanks on something that is not going to self splash you
I think you're right and this is something I should start working on. Usually I just expect they'll be dead and i'll sacrifice my hellion wall in front of them. But I have noticed that I'm ending engagements with a paltry ground force left over (comparatively). Thanks for the advice I'll try to remember it in the next few days on ladder where I practice =)
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In short he said that protoss is very weak in TvP...omg
i hope terran don't start using Mech, mech is too strong !...way too strong
=/
Sad zealot again !!
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On April 10 2012 05:27 Dragonspear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 05:16 Squigly wrote:On April 10 2012 05:05 Dragonspear wrote:
From a Plat league perspective (for what its worth) I use my banshees to focus down immortals/colossus and let the rest of my army auto fire. I realize they should likely take care of the stalkers but I feel if I'm focusing down the immortals and colossus then the tank/hellion/thor can mop up the ground forces (usually). Auto firing tanks onto charglots means your tanks kill your own army. You need to focus tanks on something that is not going to self splash you I think you're right and this is something I should start working on. Usually I just expect they'll be dead and i'll sacrifice my hellion wall in front of them. But I have noticed that I'm ending engagements with a paltry ground force left over (comparatively). Thanks for the advice I'll try to remember it in the next few days on ladder where I practice =)
Once you start target firing tanks, you'll be amazed at how much more cost-effective your army is.
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Just fyi, the title is mispelled (mech instead of make).
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On April 10 2012 06:04 kofman wrote:
Just fyi, the title is mispelled (mech instead of make).
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
It's a joke. Look at it again.
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Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore.
Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139
We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
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@Demigod : I'll watch the replays tonight, after my stream, im at school now TT
Stream at 19h / 7pm CEST! (check facebook for link and exact stream's start)
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On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore. Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways.
Heya watched the replay. First of all, your natural CC, need i say more? It was half finished for about 2 minutes while you long distanced mined. That cost you far more than you realise i think. You had only 32 scvs at 10 min, he has 50. You should have at least 40 (maybe only 40 with your opener, i know its lke 48 with a 1 rax expo.)
Small point but you shouldve sent a marines around clearing pylons.
At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well.
Looking at your vision, you also havent scouted in like 10 minutes when you suicided a banshee into his 3rd. The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes.
Love the sensor towers though. But still haven't killed the rocks at your 3rd, or taken out that pylon.
Now here is a biggie. The fight:
1) No PDDs, your raven just died
2) The tanks are soooo spread out, He is constantly engaging less than half your army. When he attacks most of your army cant hit him, and he just walks through. I think this is a huge mistake, im no pro on positioning, id love to hear the OP on this, but I know this is not right. Even with this, you still pushed him back. Imagine what would have happened with those PDDs, emps and better army position. You just couldn't resupply as fast.
3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here 
If anyone wants to disagree with any of this, please do, I wont be offended at all
EDIT: Also 0-0, not even yamato upgrads for air. You ahve so much money most of the game, just use 3 armories for upgrades not 2. Even 4? That seems excessive.
Also no ghost upgrades, not even the codemasd(lol sp) reactor for energy. The cloak is always good with thors and ravens around as obs will die with suboptimal control.
Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control
Final edit: Just to be mean, ive decided to point out that your end BM (i dont disapprove lol) says check APMs. You averaged 57, him 54. Not really gamechanging
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On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore. Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways. At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well.
But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes.
Why? When we fought we were both at 200/200.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here
This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays.
On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control
How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades?
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On April 11 2012 08:02 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore. Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways. At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well. But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason. Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes. Why? When we fought we were both at 200/200. Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays. Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades?
Number of factories isn't the deciding factor, as you are never suppoed to lose the fight or even army trade. To be on even food though you need to have a clear army suply lead against the toss mass reproduction production facilities.
EDIT:
1) Your BO was terrible. Please just copy a build.
2) Bad bunker placement. Needs to be more south.
3) Proxy 3rd is huge gamble. Avoid taking these high reward/high risk situations untill you really know what you are doing (lets say untill masters - just copy specific builds till then)
4) I would say, hold back on harrasment play till you get to diamond/masters (like dont try to harass with the banshee at 14th min mark. But you should take the watch towers with your hellions (one at each).
5) Kill rocks with your tanks when you have control over watch towers (but only if you have control over them, you must not be caught out of position).
6) Your sensor tower positioning isn't optimal. YOu need to reflect upon why you are actually building them. Think in this way: "What is your plan if your opponent moves to the left or to the right side of the map and attacks from there. Do I have any way to defend against those kind of attacks?
Your sensor towers doesn't help you in anyway as you already have control over the watch towers, and if you lose the watch towers you will lose the sensor towers as well (as they are vulnerable out there). You need sensor towers that gives you more sight than what your potentital map control would otherwise give you.
7) I still disagree with Lyynas opinion that blind BC's in the midgame arenesscary, but anyway, even if you agree with him, I think you should get ghosts before BC's.
8) Around the 20th min mark its time to build ocs and sack scvs. Yet you dont do either, you actually continue scv production.
9) Your tanks should be constantly unsiged and you should rely on sensor towers/watch towers to always be in position.
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On April 11 2012 08:02 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore. Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways. At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well. But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason. Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes. Why? When we fought we were both at 200/200. Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays. Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades?
Heya, firstly, while you dont have to harass, it helps greatly if you do. Ive found that im just not goo enough (highish dia) to macro as well as a P with no harass. Yes its possible but hellion runbys help hugely. But maybe thats just my style. I think you underestimate how much 6 BFH can kill in the time to warp in reinforcements.
Yes you dont HAVE to harass, but when the P outmacros you hugely *(like in your replay) it can help.
On the upgrades front, P upgrades are much easier to handle. He was in fact 3-2-2 (might have been 3-2-1), while you were 2-2. Also, a lot of your army was on 0-0 (air). that is a huge upgrade adv.
While im no expert, i really think you need at least 7 factories at like 30 minutes. The thing is, you had the money, but you were not doing anything with it. Even when maxed its good to spend money effectively. This may not have been the root of the problem though.
The reason i said the game was over was that looking at it, I could see that there was no way you could win at 20 min in without some serious surprises. He was on many more bases and had way more income, had better upgrades, and was playing smart. Even if you had killed his whole army with like no losses he would warp in another one almost instantly as he had the eco to do so.
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EPT
