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On April 11 2012 08:21 Squigly wrote:
On the upgrades front, P upgrades are much easier to handle. He was in fact 3-2-2 (might have been 3-2-1), while you were 2-2. Also, a lot of your army was on 0-0 (air). that is a huge upgrade adv.
During the big engagement he was on 3/0/2, and I was on 2/2. Not 3/2/2. Thanks for your analysis though. It was helpful. 
Still looking forward to Lyyna's comments.
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I watched your replay DemigodcelpH.
1) It is, according to Lyyna -and i totally agree with-, the worst map for mech. It's actually the worst map for Terran.
2) You spread your army way too much, when he goes, he fights like 1/3 of your army, your hellions stayed at the XelNaga Tower all the time.
3) Lack of upgrades : you got 3-2 at the 26min mark lol. Your transition to air was useless because you were 0-0.
4) You never took your natural 3rd, why ?
5) Your macro was shit to be honest, you must at least got the 200/200 at 17min when there is no harassment...
6) Where were the ghosts ? I never saw any EMP.
and 7) Get much more banshees, like 7 or 8 at least, with cloak and a raven to allow you tosnipe the observers, they become the best units you could get.
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On April 11 2012 08:21 Squigly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 08:02 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore. Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways. At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well. But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason. On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes. Why? When we fought we were both at 200/200. On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here  This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays. On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades? Heya, firstly, while you dont have to harass, it helps greatly if you do. Ive found that im just not goo enough (highish dia) to macro as well as a P with no harass. Yes its possible but hellion runbys help hugely. But maybe thats just my style. I think you underestimate how much 6 BFH can kill in the time to warp in reinforcements. Yes you dont HAVE to harass, but when the P outmacros you hugely *(like in your replay) it can help. On the upgrades front, P upgrades are much easier to handle. He was in fact 3-2-2 (might have been 3-2-1), while you were 2-2. Also, a lot of your army was on 0-0 (air). that is a huge upgrade adv. While im no expert, i really think you need at least 7 factories at like 30 minutes. The thing is, you had the money, but you were not doing anything with it. Even when maxed its good to spend money effectively. This may not have been the root of the problem though. The reason i said the game was over was that looking at it, I could see that there was no way you could win at 20 min in without some serious surprises. He was on many more bases and had way more income, had better upgrades, and was playing smart. Even if you had killed his whole army with like no losses he would warp in another one almost instantly as he had the eco to do so.
This is actually exactly why he shouldn't harass at his current skill level. Getting these easy wins isn't whats gonna make you better long term. He needs to first learn the fundenmentals before he starts adding the "bonus stuff".
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On April 11 2012 08:28 Faust852 wrote:
I watched your replay DemigodcelpH.
1) It is, according to Lyyna -and i totally agree with-, the worst map for mech. It's actually the worst map for Terran.
2) You spread your army way too much, when he goes, he fights like 1/3 of your army, your hellions stayed at the XelNaga Tower all the time.
3) Lack of upgrades : you got 3-2 at the 26min mark lol. Your transition to air was useless because you were 0-0.
4) You never took your natural 3rd, why ?
5) Your macro was shit to be honest, you must at least got the 200/200 at 17min when there is no harassment...
6) Where were the ghosts ? I never saw any EMP.
and 7) Get much more banshees, like 7 or 8 at least, with cloak and a raven to allow you tosnipe the observers, they become the best units you could get.
That map had absolutely 0 to do with why he lost though as the opponent didn't take advantage of anything. 3-2 at 26 minut mark is absolutely fine. He probably should have some air upgraes though.
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I disagree with the 3-2 at the 26min mark, it's too late imho. And that said, he should have reseach armor before weapon upgrade. And the fact that he didn't took his natural 3rd is a map issue imho. But I agree that the protoss was very passive.
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On April 11 2012 08:42 Faust852 wrote:
I disagree with the 3-2 at the 26min mark, it's too late imho. And that said, he should have reseach armor before weapon upgrade. And the fact that he didn't took his natural 3rd is a map issue imho. But I agree that the protoss was very passive.
I think your confusing the speed of bio upgrades with the speed of mech upgrade. With mech you cant get upgrades as fast, and they are less of a priority (simply they dont matter as much, the difference between 0-0 mech vs 3/3 mech isn't absolutely game changing, its just a good advantage). But compare it with Lyynas upgrades. Im pretty sure he doesn't get 3/3 much before the 26th minute mark, and if you look at when terran players play mech in tvt they dont have 3/3 before 30th minute mark usually.
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On April 11 2012 08:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 08:42 Faust852 wrote:
I disagree with the 3-2 at the 26min mark, it's too late imho. And that said, he should have reseach armor before weapon upgrade. And the fact that he didn't took his natural 3rd is a map issue imho. But I agree that the protoss was very passive. I think your confusing the speed of bio upgrades with the speed of mech upgrade. With mech you cant get upgrades as fast, and they are less of a priority (simply they dont matter as much, the difference between 0-0 mech vs 3/3 mech isn't absolutely game changing, its just a good advantage). But compare it with Lyynas upgrades. Im pretty sure he doesn't get 3/3 much before the 26th minute mark, and if you look at when terran players play mech in tvt they dont have 3/3 before 30th minute mark usually.
Nop, I don't. In some games, It happened that I play with only one armory, and I still get the 2-3 faster. Maybe the upgrades on mech are less important, but they are still a huge help and make your thors unbeatable. ^^
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On April 11 2012 08:36 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 08:21 Squigly wrote:On April 11 2012 08:02 DemigodcelpH wrote:On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:On April 10 2012 12:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:Hi gold Terran here who hates bio. I was the defensive macro type in BW, so mech suits my style a lot more. I refuse to do bio anymore. Can Lynna or good meching Terran take a quick look at my replay? http://drop.sc/157139We both macroed up, had one big engagement, and I barely held on because he ran out of anti-air to kill my Battlecrusiers. He then abused Warp Gate mechanic to nearly remax instantly, and then we had a 2nd battle in my natural choke as I was struggling to get units out of my slow factories. Just couldn't keep up. Next he does his 2nd warp round and then by that time I have nothing to defend with anyways. At 20 min, hes on 5 bases, you just barely on 4. He has far higher income. You havent harassed with hellions at all. A large part of mech (someone correct me if wrong) if hellion harass. Go roast some probes. I tend to play fast and looses with hellions when i play mech in any MU. They are pretty much free, just throw then, sensibly mind you, at some probes. drop them in the main, this gives scouting as well. But according to Lynna I shouldn't have to harass with this style... I thought the idea of mech was to macro up and let toss suicide into fights with me having favorable engagements. I know harassment is always good, but I was asking why I lost, and the steps I should take to change that reason. On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:The game is already over before any engagement. Game is over at 20 minutes. Why? When we fought we were both at 200/200. On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:3) Even if you won the fight lets look at production - 4TLFac, 1ReactorFac, 2TLStarport. He has 24 gates, a stargate(with fleet beacon) and 2 robos. I think you see the problem here This was always confusing to me. Factories cost 100 gas, so if I'm macroing properly I won't be able to spam them. I notice Lynna doesn't really have more than 5-7 generally in his replays. On April 11 2012 01:19 Squigly wrote:Overall this game actually gives me hope for mech TvP. Even though, to be blunt, he vastly outmacrod you and had much better upgrades, you held your line twice, with poor positioning. I can only imagine how it would look with EMP, PDD and gosu control How is this relevant if we were both maxed at the end? And I was 2/2 on ground and he was 3/2 on ground. I know it's bad, but how is that "much better" upgrades? Heya, firstly, while you dont have to harass, it helps greatly if you do. Ive found that im just not goo enough (highish dia) to macro as well as a P with no harass. Yes its possible but hellion runbys help hugely. But maybe thats just my style. I think you underestimate how much 6 BFH can kill in the time to warp in reinforcements. Yes you dont HAVE to harass, but when the P outmacros you hugely *(like in your replay) it can help. On the upgrades front, P upgrades are much easier to handle. He was in fact 3-2-2 (might have been 3-2-1), while you were 2-2. Also, a lot of your army was on 0-0 (air). that is a huge upgrade adv. While im no expert, i really think you need at least 7 factories at like 30 minutes. The thing is, you had the money, but you were not doing anything with it. Even when maxed its good to spend money effectively. This may not have been the root of the problem though. The reason i said the game was over was that looking at it, I could see that there was no way you could win at 20 min in without some serious surprises. He was on many more bases and had way more income, had better upgrades, and was playing smart. Even if you had killed his whole army with like no losses he would warp in another one almost instantly as he had the eco to do so. This is actually exactly why he shouldn't harass at his current skill level. Getting these easy wins isn't whats gonna make you better long term. He needs to first learn the fundenmentals before he starts adding the "bonus stuff".
I have no idea what his current skill level is i dont think he posted his league. The P played pretty decently, so I assumed at least plat.
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He clearly stated he was in gold.
Anyway I just want to comment to those who are suggesting ghosts. I personally do not like ghosts and I have dozens of replays of me playing mech without ghosts that relies on fairly frequent pushing and lots of harassment with a BC transition. I'm also experimenting with triple armory for faster air upgrades. PM me if you are interested in this style.
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Mod edit: Ponies!
User was warned for this post
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On April 11 2012 13:37 crocodile wrote:
He clearly stated he was in gold.
Anyway I just want to comment to those who are suggesting ghosts. I personally do not like ghosts and I have dozens of replays of me playing mech without ghosts that relies on fairly frequent pushing and lots of harassment with a BC transition. I'm also experimenting with triple armory for faster air upgrades. PM me if you are interested in this style.
I want to see you beat a decent toss going immortals without ghosts.
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'Going Immortals?' Are you in Gold league? I can't stand players that talk in terms of 'going X unit' because it demonstrates a an extreme misunderstanding of how this game works. Are you talking about defending an Immortal allin? Because I have replays of that. If you're talking about a Protoss who legitimately just masses Immortals, he will lose because that's not only the stupidest strategy ever, but because I have tons of Banshees which force a ton of Stalkers (not a lot of gas for immortals) in the early-mid game and BC/Raven in the late game.
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@Demigod : sorry, but i was basically unable to watch to replay before. People who analyzed it pointed most issues, especially about mechanics, but basically
-Really late uppgrade. You dont need to power uppgrade as hard as with with ghostmech, but you went pure mech with REALLY late uppgrades
-Too splitted army
@Hider : i am myself trying some ghost less mech midgame these days,really funny and seems even better than ghost mech in midgame (i feel you have to had ghosts at some points anyway). basically immortals are useless versus your huge hellion buffer
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On April 12 2012 00:01 crocodile wrote:
'Going Immortals?' Are you in Gold league? I can't stand players that talk in terms of 'going X unit' because it demonstrates a an extreme misunderstanding of how this game works. Are you talking about defending an Immortal allin? Because I have replays of that. If you're talking about a Protoss who legitimately just masses Immortals, he will lose because that's not only the stupidest strategy ever, but because I have tons of Banshees which force a ton of Stalkers (not a lot of gas for immortals) in the early-mid game and BC/Raven in the late game.
Please stop this passive-aggression. If you previsouly have read my posts you would be aware your lower ranked than me, so shitting on other peoples rank doesn't make a lot of sense from your perspective.
Especially since I just asked for replays, as the times I have been testing mech I have had problems with immortals or archons if I go ghostsless.
Lyyna if you ahve replays of you having succes beating immortal heavy style without ghosts I would appreciate that as well (im not talking about ultra late game, but mid/early late game).
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Ill add these in the next pack. In fact actually , due to the fact that a lot of protoss read the guide (and due to the fact i'm playing ladder to win points more than working on my strat these days) im playing some "alternative" strategies, one ghost-less mech midgame, and one MMM tank into ghost/tank,both really cool
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First of all, you are not ranked higher than me. You are master league, I'm master league. Yet you demonstrate a fundamental lack of game understanding with your words (I assume you can make up for it with other aspects of your play).
Second of all, I have replays of me defending Immortal busts. I have not faced a Protoss who just blindly massed Immortals into the mid game because even though Protosses in master league can be really bad, none of them are THAT bad. You cannot just mass Immortals against a player who has a ton of Banshees (so you'll have no anti-air) and a bunch of Hellions to buffer.
You are theorycrafting and basing your argument on what you THINK will happen in theoretical situations instead of what actually happens.
Let me tell you how my build usually plays out: I open with a Reactor expand, giving me lots of Marines in the early game and a variable number of bunkers depending on what I scout (usually at least 2 by the 7 minute mark). Afterwards I do either a Hellion drop, then Cloak Banshee or I go straight for Cloak Banshee.
This pins the Protoss in his base and forces him to build Stalkers and will probably kill a lot of Probes regardless. If he is not defending my harass because he doesn't have detection or his army is not at home, I will drop a ton of bunkers to survive the allin that is surely coming. I get a Raven after 2 Banshees and then continue Banshee production. At this point, the midgame has begun and the Protoss has not had any window of opportunity to 'mass' Immortals.
My next move is to continue harassing with Hellions and Banshees, but I am very careful not to lose any while I gear up for a 2 Reactor 1 TL Factory 1 Starport (I also have double Armories at this point) push with Blue Flame Hellions and Siege Tanks. I push out at 150 food and take my 3rd with 5-6 Banshees, 5-7 Siege Tanks, a Raven, and a large number of Marines and Blue Flame Hellions.
Now, if the Protoss has decided to make nothing but Immortals and Zealots off of a standard-timed Robo, he will not have enough Stalkers to deal with my Banshees because of my Siege Tank count AND the 2 PDDs I have available, while all of the Zealots will get evaporated by my Marine/Hellion during the battle. Read: he will die. If he makes Immortals and Stalkers, he will not be able to get to the tanks because of all the Marines and Hellions that will not only buffer the tanks, they will kill the Immortals and Stalkers.
Unless my harass has been crazy effective, I usually don't kill the Protoss here, but trade relatively efficiently if there is a battle and force a bunch of Gateway units (delayed tech, etc). I never commit hard unless I know I will win. At this point I have three bases and start adding Thors, 2 Starports worth of Banshees, and a reasonably timed 4th. I usually push when I approach max and continually add more tech (BCs, and Raven/Viking as required) so each push is stronger than the last. Each push is meant to deny bases, delay tech, and trade efficiently.
At what point, in the general game plan I just described, is there a window for a Protoss to just mass Immortals and not die to what I'm doing? And that's completely disregarding how overrated Immortals are in a straight up fight against mech.
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I would just like to react to one of your sentence Crocodile :
'how overrated Immortals are in a straight up fight against mech"
I like it because a lot of players says that every protoss unit in sc2 counters mech, especially the immortal. But well, a little precision : Every protoss units counters TANKS. Yeah, immortals counter tanks. Blink stalker counters tanks. Chargelots counter tanks.Archon counter tanks. Air counter tanks. And why?because all these units can avoid or takes a lots of damage. But well, a good mech army will never be pure tanks,and that's why in fact immortals (and most intuitive "mech" counters) ends up being horrible
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On April 12 2012 02:38 crocodile wrote:
First of all, you are not ranked higher than me. You are master league, I'm master league. Yet you demonstrate a fundamental lack of game understanding with your words (I assume you can make up for it with other aspects of your play).
Second of all, I have replays of me defending Immortal busts. I have not faced a Protoss who just blindly massed Immortals into the mid game because even though Protosses in master league can be really bad, none of them are THAT bad. You cannot just mass Immortals against a player who has a ton of Banshees (so you'll have no anti-air) and a bunch of Hellions to buffer.
You are theorycrafting and basing your argument on what you THINK will happen in theoretical situations instead of what actually happens.
Let me tell you how my build usually plays out: I open with a Reactor expand, giving me lots of Marines in the early game and a variable number of bunkers depending on what I scout (usually at least 2 by the 7 minute mark). Afterwards I do either a Hellion drop, then Cloak Banshee or I go straight for Cloak Banshee.
This pins the Protoss in his base and forces him to build Stalkers and will probably kill a lot of Probes regardless. If he is not defending my harass because he doesn't have detection or his army is not at home, I will drop a ton of bunkers to survive the allin that is surely coming. I get a Raven after 2 Banshees and then continue Banshee production. At this point, the midgame has begun and the Protoss has not had any window of opportunity to 'mass' Immortals.
My next move is to continue harassing with Hellions and Banshees, but I am very careful not to lose any while I gear up for a 2 Reactor 1 TL Factory 1 Starport (I also have double Armories at this point) push with Blue Flame Hellions and Siege Tanks. I push out at 150 food and take my 3rd with 5-6 Banshees, 5-7 Siege Tanks, a Raven, and a large number of Marines and Blue Flame Hellions.
Now, if the Protoss has decided to make nothing but Immortals and Zealots off of a standard-timed Robo, he will not have enough Stalkers to deal with my Banshees because of my Siege Tank count AND the 2 PDDs I have available, while all of the Zealots will get evaporated by my Marine/Hellion during the battle. Read: he will die. If he makes Immortals and Stalkers, he will not be able to get to the tanks because of all the Marines and Hellions that will not only buffer the tanks, they will kill the Immortals and Stalkers.
Unless my harass has been crazy effective, I usually don't kill the Protoss here, but trade relatively efficiently if there is a battle and force a bunch of Gateway units (delayed tech, etc). I never commit hard unless I know I will win. At this point I have three bases and start adding Thors, 2 Starports worth of Banshees, and a reasonably timed 4th. I usually push when I approach max and continually add more tech (BCs, and Raven/Viking as required) so each push is stronger than the last. Each push is meant to deny bases, delay tech, and trade efficiently.
At what point, in the general game plan I just described, is there a window for a Protoss to just mass Immortals and not die to what I'm doing? And that's completely disregarding how overrated Immortals are in a straight up fight against mech.
Your low master I am high master. End of that discussion.
You like to shit on others. amd this isn't the first time you do it, please just stop it, you come out as a dick.
I am theorycrafting? No I am doing the opposite, check the following quote:
Especially since I just asked for replays, as the times I have been testing mech I have had problems with immortals or archons if I go ghostsless.
The fact that I have problems going ghostless vs immortals has nothing to do with fundemental game understanding, as mech in tvp is kinda a niche. However I will agree with you that this very well could be a lack of mech tvp game understanding. I never claimed to be an expert in tvp, i only played around 30 games with mech tvp (last month).
I just say I haven't succesded with my mech games going ghostless, and I simply asked for a replay (this is the 3rd time). I honestly dont care that much about how your games typically turns out. If you have a couple of replays destroying a toss going heavy immortals (like 5-10 immortals in a 150 food army) and he doesn't commit many obv. mistakes I will be glad to learn, cause honestly I hate ghosts, I like pure mech (with some air much better).
But please tone down your hostility.
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I'm not being hostile, you never once asked me for a replay. It's not a personal insult to say that your posts demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of Starcraft 2, because they do. You're the one being hostile, calling me a dick and saying I like to 'shit on others.' I gave you a very good basis for everything I said.
As for your pulling rank, the difference between low and high master is very small. I don't do well in TvT and I experiment a lot in TvZ, so my ranking gets pulled down a bit by that. You sound like the guys on the bnet forums, where you see Platinum players explaining that because they are Platinum they know sooo much more about the game than Gold players, which you would know not to be true if you worked your way up from Bronze like I did.
I've explained why very few Protoss players would ever build 5 Immortals in a 150 food army (tl;dr because it's an extremely dumb idea), especially against my build which forces them into a style of play that doesn't really have room for a lot of Immortals before I have a very high Banshee and/or BC count which is why I don't think I've faced it, but I will give you replays that have more Immortals than usual at the very least in a few minutes, I need to find them.
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This is a discussion about a guide, can we avoid irrelevant arguments please?
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EPT
