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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
"saying he can't have the counter to my units because i have the counter to his units...?" They're saying more that you can't just imagine a random scenario with X army vs Y army. There's a lot more to it than just two armies a-moving into each other. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
Other than that, I only lose if I make a stupid mistake. This is why I like mech. If I'm playing well, I won't lose to something stupid like a lucky storm that kills my whole army in 4 seconds. As for your points about counters, this is why Day9 hates talking in terms of counters and I agree with him. Counters don't make sense, it's a simplistic and stupid way to look at this game. I'm not saying he can't have the counter to my units because I have the counter to his units. It's just too complex to simplify it that way. At the very best, I can simplify it to saying I force the Protoss down a certain tech path (Robo+Stalkers) via harassment which prevents them from doing something crazy like massing Phoenix and/or Immortals without just dying to my timing push. If you don't understand what I'm trying to say here, you probably don't understand Starcraft 2 that well. Edit: Ninja's by Yoshi. Well put, you said the same thing as me  | ||
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McTeazy
Canada297 Posts
McTeazy, you may want to reread the strategy forum guidelines. It is the job as the guide writer to share replays so he can be criticized. It is not the job for the guide writer to find specific replays to prove criticizer's claims to be wrong. It is the poster/reader's job to debate with evidence, ideally with replays to provide strong support. i don't have replays of playing against this style for 2 reasons: i play random, and the style doesn't seem to be very popular yet. i do have replays of myself defending sky terran type plays with a few phoenix in the typical turtle toss style, but i deemed them to be rather irrelevant. the point is i know from experience defending banshees is really easy. i've also played against blue flame helions as harassing units, and know that good simcity and some cannons will work fine. i don't have replays of this because i don't save them all and as mentioned above, i don't necessarily get that many pvt's. in any case, the points are valid and were being dismissed in silly ways with replays that show poor play, or inappropriate repsonses given the sitaution. "saying he can't have the counter to my units because i have the counter to his units...?" They're saying more that you can't just imagine a random scenario with X army vs Y army. There's a lot more to it than just two armies a-moving into each other. no, they've been saying that exactly. and you're right about there being more to it than a-moving. that was my point. he most trouble I have is with late game Carrier switches. The Protoss deflects my harass and turtles to a 4 base economy and just switches over to Carriers, while taking more bases and massing Gateways. When I've made enough Vikings to handle the Carriers, they remax on Gateway units and roll over me. I have only faced Protoss who did this twice, and it was very difficult to stop. I think the trick is to rely more on Thor/BC/Raven with a few Vikings so that I don't get rolled by the gateway switch. Other than that, I only lose if I make a stupid mistake. This is why I like mech. If I'm playing well, I won't lose to something stupid like a lucky storm that kills my whole army in 4 seconds. As for your points about counters, this is why Day9 hates talking in terms of counters and I agree with him. Counters don't make sense, it's a simplistic and stupid way to look at this game. I'm not saying he can't have the counter to my units because I have the counter to his units. It's just too complex to simplify it that way. At the very best, I can simplify it to saying I force the Protoss down a certain tech path (Robo+Stalkers) via harassment which prevents them from doing something crazy like massing Phoenix and/or Immortals without just dying to my timing push. If you don't understand what I'm trying to say here, you probably don't understand Starcraft 2 that well. Edit: Ninja's by Yoshi. Well put, you said the same thing as me you missed my point completely about counters. i agree with you and was trying to point out your silliness. also stop telling people they don't understand the game, it just makes you look like a pretentious dick. otherwise, GOOD! it's funny because that's actually a primary weakness of bio as well. the tech switch back and forth between HT/collosi that makes terran perfectly balance their composition or just lose due to not enough ghosts or vikings. so the main two problems i see are surviving the early game and balancing your late game composition. i think heavy void ray/carrier would be problematic as well, cuz in that case you'd pretty much be forced to make a lot of vikings to not die to charged vrs. the remax would probably be very zealot heavy though so you might still win that second remax with walls and stuff. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
so the main two problems i see are surviving the early game and balancing your late game composition. i think heavy void ray/carrier would be problematic as well, cuz in that case you'd pretty much be forced to make a lot of vikings to not die to charged vrs. the remax would probably be very zealot heavy though so you might still win that second remax with walls and stuff. I was going to answer to your post because even if you're insulting everybody on this thread asking stuff i already answered, well, it's my job to answer questions about the guide . But when i saw that statements, it's obvious that you didnt even see any replays of lategame situations (and there is a lot of mass air into mass zealot warp in mine) , and you didnt read anything i see in the thread about surviving early game... i said previously that i wouldn't answer to that kind of blindly/randomly bashing people, even if i look like a "pretentious dick" (as you say) | ||
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jakek95
United Kingdom351 Posts
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
http://drop.sc/159087 Here's another game, same map, where the harass practically kills him and then the push itself rolls over him. Apparently Metropolis is really good for Hellion/Banshee harass. http://drop.sc/159088 | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
Thanks Lynna for continually uploading new ones as well. The tags are REALLY useful (naming them). @tdt Wrong, to say that it will "never" work. If it works at korean GM, I think that's good enough. It'll probably get buffed in HotS anyways. Not sure if you are talking specifically about Lynna's style though or mech in TvP in general though. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
There is some ghostless mech in it, including some long passive games and, for some, a BFH/tank/marine early push i'm actually working on, which is insanely strong Also i'm preparing to start recording VOD's, as streaming is becoming harder these days | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On April 13 2012 14:51 crocodile wrote: The most trouble I have is with late game Carrier switches. The Protoss deflects my harass and turtles to a 4 base economy and just switches over to Carriers, while taking more bases and massing Gateways. When I've made enough Vikings to handle the Carriers, they remax on Gateway units and roll over me. Vikings suck against large numbers of carriers You have to manually target with them, otherwise they shoot interceptors. Problem is, if you have a lot of vikings, manually targeting means a ton of overkill even if you split them into multiple control groups. BCs are really good against carriers though... | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On April 15 2012 09:13 crocodile wrote: I know. I literally said that later in the same post. I'm saying vikings suck against large numbers of carriers... not that they die to gateway remaxes (obviously). ie. you shouldn't be building them to 'counter' carriers in the first place. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On April 04 2012 03:29 Mongolbonjwa wrote: Terrans should snipe always the observers What if the obs is tucked away by the colossi and not flying off like a retard straight into your army? You will need SOMETHING to get the obs that is tucked away in the far back (it can be there since the stealth detection range is quite large) and that SOMETHING might be vikings.. maybe thors. I figured I should mention this as it might be an issue as soon as the future P starts taking care of their obs. Cheers Dan | ||
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The WingNut
United States35 Posts
On April 13 2012 14:51 crocodile wrote: Other than [carriers], I only lose if I make a stupid mistake. This is why I like mech. If I'm playing well, I won't lose to something stupid like a lucky storm that kills my whole army in 4 seconds. This pretty much sums it up for me. I'm just a gold level player, but I am just so tired of running away from storms and zealots when I play bio... I've been doing ghost-less mech into battlecruisers after watching some of the replays on this thread and I really like it. I am also going thor-less (marine-tank-banshee into hellion tank banshee/BC with turrets if I need more AA). I don't feel bad about making 3 or 4 barracks early game as I just float them around for scouting or use them for sim-city walling in my mech army later on. BCs are really good; they can eat storms and even feedbacks pretty well, and unlike thors, I actually use their spell-damage, especially against players that try to get cute with their colossi and get them a little too close. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On April 16 2012 10:12 crocodile wrote: I think as time goes on you'll want to add Thors to your army. Thors fill a crucial meat-shield role for the tanks and hellions. Against large numbers of hellions, you'll want them hitting your thors and not your hellions because the thors can take a zealot hit and tank splash without dying. Good points, I just started with this style yesterday and noticed this. I started making thors too late and the P reached my tanks a bit too fast.  Cheers Dan | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
In every single instance Tank/Thor/Hellion performed worse than Tank/Thor/Marine against the Protoss armies, except for pure zealot armies. So why build hellions at all? They seem to be worthless outside of raiding and scouting. Am I missing something? If you go marines to complement your mech you need to upgrade 2 unit lines but you get a significantly better army that also works better in a re-max situation. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
If you show the replays i guarantee I can find up to 6 reasons why you lost that have nothing to do with your unit composition. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On April 16 2012 22:46 crocodile wrote: If you're fighting protoss with a 120 population a 120 pop army, you're doing it wrong. Hellions are better because of their harassment, mobility (warpin defense) and map control potential, their ability to be produced extremely quickly, and their superiority against zealots. In large numbers, chargelots are useless against hellions. Also streamlined upgrades and production facilities is a big deal. If you show the replays i guarantee I can find up to 6 reasons why you lost that have nothing to do with your unit composition. I thought the point with mech was to get an army that are strong late game vs Protoss? With bio you must trade constantly but I thought that with mech it is better to fight when you are maxed out? | ||
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