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On April 08 2012 01:03 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 00:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On April 05 2012 00:33 Hider wrote:On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP. I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not. However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible. In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle. Well it's hard for theorycrafting to contribute to any discussion (at least not significantly) without replays. Replays replays replays (or VODs), is what the SC2 strategy forum guidelines advise you to bring with any argument. Though like you said, some can be helpful, while most isn't. But lynna is a pretty high level player with some good replays, so at this point I don't think any theorycrafting will be too convincing of anything. I think its a good idea to theorycraft based on actual games. Like in a specific game one could try to theorycraft what would happen if the toss did X or Y, and then one could go on to analyze the best response from the mech player.
Oh if it's about a specific game, then yes of course! :D but yea like you say so many people are just like "blink stalkers beat this" without checking the replay or referring specifically =/
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@Hider : turrets rings arent enough as he can just suicide his Ms to launch the recall (yes,the recall will complete even if the MS die . . )
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On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP.
what? how are you getting those sensor towers and walls everywhere? the problem i can think of immediately when i read the op is that going banshees severely reduces your tank count and any competent protoss when faced with heavy banshee harass can simply defend and stay ahead. like statikg said, phoenixes are not uncommon vs mech since they take some of your main damage dealers (tanks) out of the equation.
the idea behind this is that you keep defending while the protoss constantly throws units at you which wont really happen and this strategy is extremely open to tech switches to stargate. really the last thing you want to do while meching is to play a passive, extreme late-game since tech switches will absolutely kill you.
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I come from the end of my temp ban with replays! So many mech tvp replays. All ghost-less and in master league.
http://drop.sc/155312
This was my favorite one: this game showcases my mech army winning in multiple maxed army situations. I faced mass Colossus, Archons, Chargelots, Warp Prism harass, Mothership, basically everything Protosses can try to do to beat mech just failed against me here.
http://drop.sc/155313
Here is me defending an immortal allin off one base while doing hellion drop harass.
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On April 08 2012 03:56 dontforgetosmile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP. what? how are you getting those sensor towers and walls everywhere? the problem i can think of immediately when i read the op is that going banshees severely reduces your tank count and any competent protoss when faced with heavy banshee harass can simply defend and stay ahead. like statikg said, phoenixes are not uncommon vs mech since they take some of your main damage dealers (tanks) out of the equation. the idea behind this is that you keep defending while the protoss constantly throws units at you which wont really happen and this strategy is extremely open to tech switches to stargate. really the last thing you want to do while meching is to play a passive, extreme late-game since tech switches will absolutely kill you.
*facepalm*
Well, im getting banshees out of ONE starport when gas allows. How can it "severely reduces" my tank count? Also, my personal style do not include heavy banshee harass. They're more a psychological tool that forces the toss to take care of these all game long and make him feel unsafe. Wonder how he'll be ahead considering that except in early game my banshees will be at home, and he does still have to build cannons and stuff like that to not be punished. Phenix versus any competent (people here seems to love that word) mech terran will get shredded by thors and ghosts.
For that statement . ..
well, in fact, i'll do the answer that basically apply about your whole post : Watch replays and read the guide. One of the biggest goal of this strategy is to be able to handle these "deadly" air switch. Basically like most people it looks like you stopped reading in the middle of the midgame section
edit : do someone know where/who i can ask to add the [g] tag to the name of the topic?
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On April 08 2012 04:09 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:56 dontforgetosmile wrote:On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP. what? how are you getting those sensor towers and walls everywhere? the problem i can think of immediately when i read the op is that going banshees severely reduces your tank count and any competent protoss when faced with heavy banshee harass can simply defend and stay ahead. like statikg said, phoenixes are not uncommon vs mech since they take some of your main damage dealers (tanks) out of the equation. the idea behind this is that you keep defending while the protoss constantly throws units at you which wont really happen and this strategy is extremely open to tech switches to stargate. really the last thing you want to do while meching is to play a passive, extreme late-game since tech switches will absolutely kill you. *facepalm* Well, im getting banshees out of ONE starport when gas allows. How can it "severely reduces" my tank count? Also, my personal style do not include heavy banshee harass. They're more a psychological tool that forces the toss to take care of these all game long and make him feel unsafe. Wonder how he'll be ahead considering that except in early game my banshees will be at home, and he does still have to build cannons and stuff like that to not be punished. Phenix versus any competent (people here seems to love that word) mech terran will get shredded by thors and ghosts. For that statement . .. well, in fact, i'll do the answer that basically apply about your whole post : Watch replays and read the guide. One of the biggest goal of this strategy is to be able to handle these "deadly" air switch. Basically like most people it looks like you stopped reading in the middle of the midgame section edit : do someone know where/who i can ask to add the [g] tag to the name of the topic?
how are you keeping him from expoing / tech switching without heavy / constant harassment?
how does getting a starport that early + cloak + a banshee NOT reduce your tank count heavily?
in what world does anyone have the gas to go thor / ghost to deal with phoenix while still meching?
what the hell?
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On April 08 2012 04:38 dontforgetosmile wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 04:09 Lyyna wrote:On April 08 2012 03:56 dontforgetosmile wrote:On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP. what? how are you getting those sensor towers and walls everywhere? the problem i can think of immediately when i read the op is that going banshees severely reduces your tank count and any competent protoss when faced with heavy banshee harass can simply defend and stay ahead. like statikg said, phoenixes are not uncommon vs mech since they take some of your main damage dealers (tanks) out of the equation. the idea behind this is that you keep defending while the protoss constantly throws units at you which wont really happen and this strategy is extremely open to tech switches to stargate. really the last thing you want to do while meching is to play a passive, extreme late-game since tech switches will absolutely kill you. *facepalm* Well, im getting banshees out of ONE starport when gas allows. How can it "severely reduces" my tank count? Also, my personal style do not include heavy banshee harass. They're more a psychological tool that forces the toss to take care of these all game long and make him feel unsafe. Wonder how he'll be ahead considering that except in early game my banshees will be at home, and he does still have to build cannons and stuff like that to not be punished. Phenix versus any competent (people here seems to love that word) mech terran will get shredded by thors and ghosts. For that statement . .. well, in fact, i'll do the answer that basically apply about your whole post : Watch replays and read the guide. One of the biggest goal of this strategy is to be able to handle these "deadly" air switch. Basically like most people it looks like you stopped reading in the middle of the midgame section edit : do someone know where/who i can ask to add the [g] tag to the name of the topic? how are you keeping him from expoing / tech switching without heavy / constant harassment? how does getting a starport that early + cloak + a banshee NOT reduce your tank count heavily? in what world does anyone have the gas to go thor / ghost to deal with phoenix while still meching? what the hell?
As i said few pages ago, i'll not answer to that kind of statement which will be answered by watching some replays and reading the guide
edit : regarding ur post's number, i wonder if your account wasnt created only to troll there
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how are you keeping him from expoing / tech switching without heavy / constant harassment?
how does getting a starport that early + cloak + a banshee NOT reduce your tank count heavily?
in what world does anyone have the gas to go thor / ghost to deal with phoenix while still meching?
what the hell?
1) Banshee is good to snipe expo and isolated pylons, and remember protoss that he needs pylons.
2) You don't need tanks in early game, thor is better. Thor + rine + raven + banshee is good until ~11 min where you have 2 bases, 3 factories and 1 starport constaly producing. After 15 min, you need tanks : thors are to big and they can't attack all at the same time vs protoss ball if you have too much of them. Thors are made to deal heavy damage and protect tanks who can all kill with big range.
3) With upgraded mech army, you need 2 or 3 ghost before going for the kill, at ~17 19min games, so you have at least 3 bases = 6 gaz = 680 gaz income per minute. x4 tanks = 500 gaz, 1 ghost = 100 gaz, 1 banshee = 100 gaz, the rest of money is in helion.
Once again, pure theory crafting but just watch replays before saying it's not possible.
What protoss players don't understand : standard play protoss works against standard play terran, if terran doesn't play standard, you need other unit composition.
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I much prefer tanks in the early game against protoss. They're much more useful in allowing you to do a tank/bfh timing push while taking your third while still being worth their weight in gold defensively. I don't really see why you would want early game thors over early game tanks to be honest. I find that this push can outright kill the protoss if he is greedy, but will otherwise at least trade cost effectively and help you get rid of your early game marines. I prefer adding thorns in later to make your army more robust.
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Maybe your opinion will change when you'll have to deal with phenix/void rays in early game and you'll get all your tanks lifted like nothing.
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What the fuck are you talking about? I have plenty of Marines in the early game to handle those. Are you seriously at such a low level and lack of game understanding that you think anybody would be relying on Thors to handle Phoenix and Void Rays? That's actually the silliest thing I've ever heard.
If you're talking about a 1 base allin, my build has plenty of Marines to hold off 3 gate Void Ray, also scouting and putting up bunkers is key. If you're talking about a Protoss using Phoenix and Void Rays to defend my timing push, that's just silly because they won't have the gas to spend on any kind of ground army to fight off the Marine/Hellion portion. You don't use Stargate units to defend 2 base timing pushes unless you're in gold league.
Stargate units are absolutely useless against Terran outside of 1 base Void Ray allins or late game Carrier transitions vs Mech. Phoenixes are never an issue.
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okay man, build your early tanks and get stomped, you seem smarter that everyone else here.
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I have literally dozens of replays of my build with early tanks in Master league, working well against all kinds of Protoss openers. Are you saying that every single one of my opponents was simply not smart enough to go stargate?
Are you trolling? Please tell me you're trolling.
Here, why don't you meet me online and go stargate units to hold off my push. Crocodile 703. I'm online right now. I guarantee you nobody here thinks that what you're saying is correct, so don't act like you're speaking for the thread because you might be making the most retarded point I've ever seen anybody make in a thread on TL.
And furthermore, MKP and ST_Sound have been seen to use a mech build apparently popularized by ANOTHER Korean player named gorapadong which involves a reactor expand (my opener) into 3-4 factory siege tank/hellion. Are you saying MKP and ST_Sound are just scrubs who don't know as well as you? Please.
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On April 08 2012 03:24 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 01:03 Hider wrote:On April 08 2012 00:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On April 05 2012 00:33 Hider wrote:On April 04 2012 22:12 pimsc2 wrote:On April 04 2012 22:02 statikg wrote:
Protoss just has to take advantage of your immobility. Granted alot of protoss don't know how to do this because of the extreme bio heaviness of ladder. But as a top master terran that DID try mech for a bit I can tell you that a good response of heavy immortal chargelot or even collosus chargelot that attacks your weak spots and expands aggressively (since you can neve push out until super late) will have a massive advantage over you. Same composition + phoenix to beat banshee addition. Just theory crafting again. With sensor towers everywhere plus heavy walls, you can't be taken by surprise. Did you even take a look at the incredible replays ? He's constantly moving on the map and ready to siege with sensor towers. And you can absolutely deny mass expand play with your cloacked banshees and the BF hellions threat. Please STOP throwing stupid messages everywhere saying it's not viable with theory crafting, just look at the actual replays and you'll understand the strength of Lyyna's TvP. I disagree. I think its fair to use theorycrafting, as most of opponents that Lyyna are facing make so many suboptimal decisions that you have to use theorycrafting to discuss whether mech is viable or not. However I agree with you that the level of theorycrafting from most "mech is not viable- supporters" is just terrible. In the end it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 bases less than your opponent if your twice as cost efficient in a battle. Well it's hard for theorycrafting to contribute to any discussion (at least not significantly) without replays. Replays replays replays (or VODs), is what the SC2 strategy forum guidelines advise you to bring with any argument. Though like you said, some can be helpful, while most isn't. But lynna is a pretty high level player with some good replays, so at this point I don't think any theorycrafting will be too convincing of anything. I think its a good idea to theorycraft based on actual games. Like in a specific game one could try to theorycraft what would happen if the toss did X or Y, and then one could go on to analyze the best response from the mech player. Oh if it's about a specific game, then yes of course! :D but yea like you say so many people are just like "blink stalkers beat this" without checking the replay or referring specifically =/
But doesn't a mothership die if you have 10 turrets or so shotting at it. I mean can the mothership actually get into your base (it kinda moves slowly) before it dies if your turret ring is big enough?
EDIT: Kinda wonders though. (Hyphtoetical situation). What if my opponent goes for like 2 base and then adds a lot of VR's. Should I rely on thors + emp to deal with it. Or are vikings nesscary? (like building vikings instead of banshees?).
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the thor or tanks early is a personal preference. Tanks are better if you want to be agressive early with hellions support, and to defend stalker based-push. Thors are better to set up for a defensive game, and holds immortal/zealot/sentry thing.
About the Mothership thing : the MS can just rush in and launch the recall. even if it dies the recall complete T_T
@Hider : hm, i would say adding just a few vikings to avoid "accidents"
Anyway, Crocodile, after seeing your replays, I wanted to try some ghost-less mech. Basically i did it long time ago (when i started to mech in fact) and i stopped because i wasnt able to find a good opening, but now that i can use a good opening . . damn , it's insane. I'll test it more next days
edit : also, new replays. Actually im not able to play on my main computer, and due to the fact i have a really hard time playing on my second comp, i cant do that much long macro games that i used to do. Sorry for that as it really reduces the number of good games i can upload T_T
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Thanks!  I find it requires you be a little more aggressive (actively move out to deny bases and stuff as long as you're confident of your army superiority), use more barracks walls and stuff like that, but it is super fun and it totally works. Be sure to tell me how it goes!
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On April 09 2012 06:39 Lyyna wrote:
the thor or tanks early is a personal preference. Tanks are better if you want to be agressive early with hellions support, and to defend stalker based-push. Thors are better to set up for a defensive game, and holds immortal/zealot/sentry thing.
About the Mothership thing : the MS can just rush in and launch the recall. even if it dies the recall complete T_T
@Hider : hm, i would say adding just a few vikings to avoid "accidents"
Anyway, Crocodile, after seeing your replays, I wanted to try some ghost-less mech. Basically i did it long time ago (when i started to mech in fact) and i stopped because i wasnt able to find a good opening, but now that i can use a good opening . . damn , it's insane. I'll test it more next days
edit : also, new replays. Actually im not able to play on my main computer, and due to the fact i have a really hard time playing on my second comp, i cant do that much long macro games that i used to do. Sorry for that as it really reduces the number of good games i can upload T_T
The reason why one could want to not build vikings or ghosts to deal with mothership is that they cost supply. Massing turrets might be preferable if one wants a stronger army.
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On April 09 2012 04:21 LloydPGM wrote:
okay man, build your early tanks and get stomped, you seem smarter that everyone else here.
Watch gorapadong's replays. He's played against early stargate. He just gets an early starport making a couple vikings without reactor, puts 1 turret at each base, then pushes out like usual anyways. He has enough marines and knows the colossi/HT tech will be delayed, and he can use the vikings later once colossi come out so it's not like he "wastes" those vikings.
What lynna said about tanks vs thors makes sense... their use is sort of similar in TvZ too. I haven't really thought about what it means to get tanks or thors first.
Anyway yeah gorapadong's 3-4 fact build is indeed aggressive, allowing you to apply a lot of pressure and delay protoss's third for a long time. That just uses tanks and hellions.
But with cloak banshee opening (either after expansion or before or whatever), you can go choose either thors or tanks, which is an advantage of gorapadong's opening. Obviously banshee marine tank is pretty strong and the banshees keep the protoss at bay, and as a long as you have a wall with bunker+marine tanks should be about as effective as thors. But if it's a map like Metalopolis, where the natural is hard to hold, I think Thors is a better idea. (Unless maybe you spawn close air position, since you can sit at the watch tower and fortify that area with tanks, so that protoss has to go all the way around the map, you can see that in Illusions's replays, like the one on Day9 daily lol).
Maybe another way that can help you decide tanks or thors is, if you open banshee first (1 base cloak banshee or gasless expand into cloak banshee), you can scout his tech with the banshees then you can decide thor or tank. If he's going for templar tech, thors are probably better (you don't have too many hellions to kill zealots yet, and Banshee DPS is high but not high enough, but maybe someone will disagree with me since it means they have no good antiair, but they could just canon up at home with a couple HT right?).
Against robo tech, I think both thor and tank would be good ideas?
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i am diamond terran and today i won diamond protoss player using this build first time in 2 seasons so i approve this build
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EPT
