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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
On April 04 2012 09:24 Faust852 wrote: It's not that EZ I think, that's why I always add 3 or 4 vikings to snipe them because I'm not always able to see it through the deathball protoss. dont marines automatically shoot observer once scanned? | ||
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TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
On April 04 2012 01:59 YARRtosis wrote: Nice guide, although playing against toss late game is just suicide, isn't it? It is if you have a deafetist attitude. It appears you've lost longer before you hit "find match". | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On April 04 2012 00:40 cydial wrote: Goody doesn't even play mech anymore because of how bad it is at higher levels. User was temp banned for this post. Lol....straight after my post Why is it that everyone seems to say that because Goody does not play mech anymore, they will not. Seriously? Is Goody some kind of mech God that makes no mistakes? He is really good in mech, but does it mean he decides whether or not you play mech? So what if Goody stops meching? You try and explore the unexplored, stop relying on Goody | ||
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
Mech is not viable in a "close to perfect" scenario, mech is viable in a "avg joe vs avg joe" scenario, which, once again, is what you play , what you play, what everyone here plays. That doesn't mean that its good, if it get to popular it'l just result in pros learning how to play vs it and developing a good meta game = > everyone will be able to crush it, if it doesn't get popular it will take maybe 3 or 4 years til people have played enough to know how to counter mech. Thus making mech exactly the opposite of what you make it out to be, its not a "if you play perfect you can't loss" and " a strategy for the future" but rather a "if he play perfect he can't loss" and " a strategy that might work now but won't ever work in the future" If you believe otherwise, fine, hell if you want to prove me so you can pm me, i would love to play vs you and show you that in a long series mech in both theory and practice is inferior to bio. The only good damn reason this tactic receives all the undeserved attention is cuz Artosis, a protoss player, a caster says that in his little universe is better than bio and cuz goody killed people with it ( still having a low win ratio pvt ) cuz non knew how to counter it, and even he said its to bad after the immortal and wp buff. | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On April 04 2012 14:13 Aterons_toss wrote: Once again... same old discussion, mech is easy to beat, you can still win with mech on ladder and even vs good players cuz non plays it, once you get figured out even a little bit ( Goody ) you have no chance of winning vs protoss, but no, keep going thor banshe vs tosses that are to dumb to make any ht, keep massing up air and say its a "style" win when they didn't scout it thus didn't had any 3-5 phoenix to crush it, iv seen people mech on ladder, i crushed the people that mech on ladder since i play a lot and thus face it enough to realized the "baselines" of reacting to certain styles of mech. Mech is not viable in a "close to perfect" scenario, mech is viable in a "avg joe vs avg joe" scenario, which, once again, is what you play , what you play, what everyone here plays. That doesn't mean that its good, if it get to popular it'l just result in pros learning how to play vs it and developing a good meta game = > everyone will be able to crush it, if it doesn't get popular it will take maybe 3 or 4 years til people have played enough to know how to counter mech. Thus making mech exactly the opposite of what you make it out to be, its not a "if you play perfect you can't loss" and " a strategy for the future" but rather a "if he play perfect he can't loss" and " a strategy that might work now but won't ever work in the future" If you believe otherwise, fine, hell if you want to prove me so you can pm me, i would love to play vs you and show you that in a long series mech in both theory and practice is inferior to bio. The only good damn reason this tactic receives all the undeserved attention is cuz Artosis, a protoss player, a caster says that in his little universe is better than bio and cuz goody killed people with it ( still having a low win ratio pvt ) cuz non knew how to counter it, and even he said its to bad after the immortal and wp buff. I was going to do a big answer to your post, explaining why i think you're wrong, the fact me and my partners/people i do often meet in ladder are basically agreeing on the fact it's a really hard to counter play if well executed, the fact that you seems to say you're the only smart toss able to fight mech properly, etc. But after 10 minutes of writing , i realized that i already said that again and again and again. I also realized your post is just a big theory on metagame and learning to counter the start, but do not contain anything from the game : you dont talk about any counter strat,etc . I also realized you didnt even read the whole guide. So basically, i'll suggest you to read the whole guide, read the thread as i answer to stuff like yours every 5 pages, and also to realize that you aren't the only super-smart-guy able to counter mech properly | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On April 04 2012 16:54 Lyyna wrote: I was going to do a big answer to your post, explaining why i think you're wrong, the fact me and my partners/people i do often meet in ladder are basically agreeing on the fact it's a really hard to counter play if well executed, the fact that you seems to say you're the only smart toss able to fight mech properly, etc. But after 10 minutes of writing , i realized that i already said that again and again and again. I also realized your post is just a big theory on metagame and learning to counter the start, but do not contain anything from the game : you dont talk about any counter strat,etc . I also realized you didnt even read the whole guide. So basically, i'll suggest you to read the whole guide, read the thread as i answer to stuff like yours every 5 pages, and also to realize that you aren't the only super-smart-guy able to counter mech properly I didn't say i am the only one able to counter it, i said that replays vs mid master toss who were taken by surprise is no proof that this works, i also didn't say anything about "learning how to counter the start" which makes me think you are talking out of your arse and didn't understood what i said. What i said is: - No pro player goes mech in pvt - No pro player says mech in pvt is good - No pro player has ever had a huge win ratio with mech and the few pro games where the T's tried to mech ended horribly - The above shows that "meching in pvt is good" AND "meching in pvt is unbeatable if you play it right, but its hard" are both wrong as fuck If the above weren't enough to prove this to you, however, i also said: - You only have replays vs non pro players (at least from what i saw, since you formatted them in the way you did, i can't really "explore" all the replays, but the 2 i saw were vs avg joe ) - You have no "specialist" option to back up mech being good in pvt except for goody, which gave up doing it and admitted its to shit to work and Artosis who is a caster and a mid/high master protoss player on the korean server, or at least those are the only 2 "prominent" community members that vouched for the viability of mech in pvt - From personal experience ( aka- from my ladder joe vs ladder joe pov- much like your replays,and the opponents you played against ) it seems to me that mech is weak and most people face to it since they don't play that much and never saw it before I might be able to bring a post to "out theory craft" you, but as long as your only argument in favor of mech is " i made this theory crafting guide" and " here are some random replay packs where i mech vs P" its not worth the time, hence you couldn't bring a solid argument to counter any point in my post and instead went for the 10 year old kid rout of " I wanted to write an answer... but fuck you, you are not worth my time simpleton". So yeah, if you want to try to mech, good for you. If you want to convince others to mech, and you idd manage to, thats sad cuz you are simply pushing them to do an inferior strategy which will be harder to play the more that people play it since the only problem anyone could face atm is them not having experience vs meching plays. But w.e, i won't keep arguing on the subject as it will obviously bring us nowhere. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10373 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
[/QUOTE] Theory crafting guide ? Oh yeah, you're so smart, you realized that this guide is only pure theorycraft and that i never play it in real situation and . . oh wait. No, seriously guy, you don't give any gameplay element in your 'argumentation', and in fact you admit all you could do is theorycrafting, the only problem being i NEVER do any theorycraft : everything i say has been tested in real conditions, and is not random things said online. Anyway, now i'll ignore that kind of post. I answered to all these stuff you're saying like 15 times ONLY in this thread, and even more in others thread. You want to discuss the viability ? then create a new thread and theorycraft there for hours about why mech isnt viable. At the same time i'll just continue to roll on every protoss i meet | ||
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nOondn
564 Posts
Theory crafting guide ? Oh yeah, you're so smart, you realized that this guide is only pure theorycraft and that i never play it in real situation and . . oh wait. No, seriously guy, you don't give any gameplay element in your 'argumentation', and in fact you admit all you could do is theorycrafting, the only problem being i NEVER do any theorycraft : everything i say has been tested in real conditions, and is not random things said online. Anyway, now i'll ignore that kind of post. I answered to all these stuff you're saying like 15 times ONLY in this thread, and even more in others thread. You want to discuss the viability ? then create a new thread and theorycraft there for hours about why mech isnt viable. At the same time i'll just continue to roll on every protoss i meet i want to see you roll on Mana or Feast. | ||
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Yngvi
Netherlands70 Posts
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Yngvi
Netherlands70 Posts
Example: a gold leaguer going bio wil most likely not beat a master toss. Not because of the build but because of execution and understanding. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
It's also nice to compare Lyyna, who's topmaster with some of the best foreigner protoss. Your argument is such biased and full of hate. I want to see any Topmaster roll over Mana and Feast with MMMVG plz, send me a replay. Haters gonna hate... | ||
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sc2pal
Poland624 Posts
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On April 04 2012 17:29 Lyyna wrote: Theory crafting guide ? Oh yeah, you're so smart, you realized that this guide is only pure theorycraft and that i never play it in real situation and . . oh wait. No, seriously guy, you don't give any gameplay element in your 'argumentation', and in fact you admit all you could do is theorycrafting, the only problem being i NEVER do any theorycraft : everything i say has been tested in real conditions, and is not random things said online. Anyway, now i'll ignore that kind of post. I answered to all these stuff you're saying like 15 times ONLY in this thread, and even more in others thread. You want to discuss the viability ? then create a new thread and theorycraft there for hours about why mech isnt viable. At the same time i'll just continue to roll on every protoss i meet Until you you prove that mech can beat top protosses many times over the course of 1 month or so ( time for meta game to evolve ) with no patch changes in said period, yes, saying " mech is better than bio" and "is impossible to losse playing mech perfectly " is theorycrafting. Proof = games, a lot of them vs a lot of good players Theory = theorycrafting to prove what those whole lot of games would prove otherwise since you don't have a whole lot of games vs a whole lot of good players Do i need to start explaining terms to you or would you like the term "proof that a build is good" to be any kind of replay, cuz i have some games of a gold friend of mine and im going to argue that cannon phoenix might be a good way to get 100% winratio vs zerg based on them. | ||
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Severus_
759 Posts
Bringing arguments like "there are no pros doing it well guess what PRO's play for money not for who has the better strategy. If they did SK.2BASE would have never won anything.They play with what works in todays meta because nobody has the balls to try something because it's better to play standard and know how your opponent is gonna respond. Only the greatest teams and players try new strats when everything is on the line. Time needs to pass so everything is ready to go and you are sure at your build and strategy to counter any transition (a.k.a SlayerS with their hellion revolution). Do you know how much time it takes to do that ? I bet it's alot so you think players will sack their practice to perfect something that might never work insted of practicing and perfecting the standard that everyone does ? For example Genius vs DRG the game were Genius tried double stargates and lost you will never know maybe if he 7gated he could have won that game but now everyone and their brother open stargate vs Z. Before that game stargate openings were falling of the scene because of mutas and roach timings which required more ground units. Check what is happening now people played more tweaked it got their timings right and those mutas and roach timings are done because of how much pressure you can put with stargate units. Another example is when people said warp prism is not viable and toss has no harass units. Then Liquid'Hero comes with his magic prism and just dominates zergs also White-Ra too with amazing harass and zeal warping. Another example is I remember even on SOTG they said sentry drop opening is not viable it's expensive bla-bla then again people like Sase and Hero prove them wrong. So unless you tested everything with perfect play by both sides don't tell me mech is not viable. Goody with crap mechanics won tournaments and lots of games by doing only mech. His opponents even knew he is gonna mech and still won just by decision making alone proves the point that mech is indeed the better strategy for long term. I don't know if he quited playing it now or not but if he did I think its more of his mechanics not beeing able to deal with P than mech beeing bad. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
Besides your thor defense has a glaring weakness... if protoss is clever he produces a warp prism and parks it over his army. The long range air attack will drain all thor DPS and the defense just dies. | ||
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Rhuubarb
Australia102 Posts
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pimsc2
France73 Posts
On April 04 2012 20:23 Thrombozyt wrote: I have tested this strategy now a couple of times on Cloud Kingdom (because it's hard as hell to play standard bio there). Failed each time. Toss outexpands me like hell and gets high templar. Feedback kills ravens and heavily damages banshes, BC and thors, storm does the rest. 3 cannons in each mineral line, because he can afford to slow his unit production because I cannot attack in any meaningful time anyways. So I sit there on 4 bases until I die. I will try it a few times, but I'm not that hopeful. Besides your thor defense has a glaring weakness... if protoss is clever he produces a warp prism and parks it over his army. The long range air attack will drain all thor DPS and the defense just dies. If the protoss can feedback you, it means you fucked up your engagement. With sensor towers, tanks, and banshees, you have all you need to roll on high templar. And you can yamato - 350mm canon - a few scv / marines before the engagements or even EMP yourself if you're afraid of feedback. I hate when people just throw down "hey you know there is a counter so it's not viable, just feedback and lol at your deathball". We can say the same for any strategy. Banshee harass ? "just get fast obs with stalkers and lol". Bioball ? "Just get colossus or storm". What makes a good strategy is not the fact there is no counter to it. A good strategy is something that can win if well executed with fast reaction time & decision making. If you screw your few games, it doesn't necessarily mean the build is bad. In this case it means your played poorly, and another style of play might fit you more. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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