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On April 03 2012 22:03 FoolieCoolie wrote:
@lyyna
feel free to supply as with pro replays.
Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count.
Feel free to take 5 minutes to search informations of a strat before bashing people talking about it, and you'll find recent posts, on the other D/G topic about TvP mech, where there is a lots of replays on KOR GM,especially one player
And this is why i mention the fact it works too in training versus my mates, in clan wars, etc, even when people can still prepare for my build. No Problem too versus the protoss i encounter multiples times on the ladder
Really funny to. When you come with a mech build that seems viable, once people realize they cant really blame issue like mobility, firepower,etc, all their arguments become "Not viable at pro viable". Problem : I don't care about pros, this build works at my lvl and thats ok for me. Really funny are also these people who say "it'll not work in high level ladder", and once you say you're high master/GM, they say "ladder do not matters"
edit : and i guess bio is just rax units then? so with the way you're defining mech, bio can only be marines marauder and ghosts then.
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On April 03 2012 22:04 Faust852 wrote:
It's also nice to compare SC2 with BW, but it's not the same game so please avoid these kind of arguments.
Wasnt an argument. Just saying that you dont get to make stuff up. Mech is factory units. Thats it, nothing really to discuss.
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On April 03 2012 22:08 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 22:03 FoolieCoolie wrote:
@lyyna
feel free to supply as with pro replays.
Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count. Feel free to take 5 minutes to search informations of a strat before bashing people talking about it, and you'll find recent posts, on the other D/G topic about TvP mech, where there is a lots of replays on KOR GM,especially one player And this is why i mention the fact it works too in training versus my mates, in clan wars, etc, even when people can still prepare for my build. No Problem too versus the protoss i encounter multiples times on the ladder
That player not GM , He only mid master Terran http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/896241/1/뽀통령/ladder/lastseason/leagues
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On April 03 2012 22:08 Lyyna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 22:03 FoolieCoolie wrote:
@lyyna
feel free to supply as with pro replays.
Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count. Feel free to take 5 minutes to search informations of a strat before bashing people talking about it, and you'll find recent posts, on the other D/G topic about TvP mech, where there is a lots of replays on KOR GM,especially one player And this is why i mention the fact it works too in training versus my mates, in clan wars, etc, even when people can still prepare for my build. No Problem too versus the protoss i encounter multiples times on the ladder Really funny to. When you come with a mech build that seems viable, once people realize they cant really blame issue like mobility, firepower,etc, all their arguments become "Not viable at pro viable". Problem : I don't care about pros, this build works at my lvl and thats ok for me. Really funny are also these people who say "it'll not work in high level ladder", and once you say you're high master/GM, they say "ladder do not matters" edit : and i guess bio is just rax units then? so with the way you're defining mech, bio can only be marines marauder and ghosts then.
Why so upset? I did say in my first post that this is not a bad build for casual gamers. At pro level, it gets crushed tho. You say you dont care about pros, so there you have it. And being high masters, or even gm on Eu really doesnt mean anything. On Kor you have much better players, harder ladder therefore you can get a better judgment of a players skill level. But still, its the big tournaments that count.
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"Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed."
You cant know that. Turtling terran may sound bad as hell, but it might be the future of tvp until hots comes out. Also with multitasking of top pro, banshee/hellion harass can be very effective throughout the game.
Maybe Lyyna will be remembered as a guy, who reinvented the whole tvp.
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On April 03 2012 22:21 FoolieCoolie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 22:08 Lyyna wrote:On April 03 2012 22:03 FoolieCoolie wrote:
@lyyna
feel free to supply as with pro replays.
Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count. Feel free to take 5 minutes to search informations of a strat before bashing people talking about it, and you'll find recent posts, on the other D/G topic about TvP mech, where there is a lots of replays on KOR GM,especially one player And this is why i mention the fact it works too in training versus my mates, in clan wars, etc, even when people can still prepare for my build. No Problem too versus the protoss i encounter multiples times on the ladder Really funny to. When you come with a mech build that seems viable, once people realize they cant really blame issue like mobility, firepower,etc, all their arguments become "Not viable at pro viable". Problem : I don't care about pros, this build works at my lvl and thats ok for me. Really funny are also these people who say "it'll not work in high level ladder", and once you say you're high master/GM, they say "ladder do not matters" edit : and i guess bio is just rax units then? so with the way you're defining mech, bio can only be marines marauder and ghosts then. Why so upset? I did say in my first post that this is not a bad build for casual gamers. At pro level, it gets crushed tho. You say you dont care about pros, so there you have it. And being high masters, or even gm on Eu really doesnt mean anything. On Kor you have much better players, harder ladder therefore you can get a better judgment of a players skill level. But still, its the big tournaments that count.
Yet you have never argued specificacly why this doesn't work in korea. You just speak in general phrases.
On the other hand as I have argued bio isn't going to work long-termish in pvt.
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i still think theres a reason why goody played mech more than a year and switched to protoss/bio vs P, so i wont even try mech anyway
User was temp banned for this post.
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Goody did not play this style
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Why is it that everyone seems to say that because Goody does not play mech anymore, they will not. Seriously? Is Goody some kind of mech God that makes no mistakes? He is really good in mech, but does it mean he decides whether or not you play mech?
So what if Goody stops meching? You try and explore the unexplored, stop relying on Goody
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The funniest thing being that i explain in the guide why goody stopped meching and why it doesnt apply to every mech style
Y U NO READ ZE GUIDE?
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Just ignore these trolls lyyna. If they have nothing of value to contribute to the discussion other than 'herp derp I played bw' and 'thiz isnt viable, heres no good reasons why' just let them make asses out of themselves. You know they wont listen to reason anyway because theyre not here to discuss mech, theyre here to make themselves feel superior as if they know something we dont. Let us continue the discussion and the trolls will eventually go away.
To hiders point about BC vs Banshee: bcs are more supply effective which is useful in a maxed army. Their high health makes them less vulnerable to storm/feedback. Their armor upgrades make them better vs stalkers/carriers. Amatory lets them blow away carriers and void rays. Also they have the 'holy shit he's making bcs' factor.
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I have some probleme !
What do you do if the protoss come with a big army and kill all your force on the ground (tank-ghost-hellion-thors) and you survive because of the BC.
What do you do after ? What do you build? Do you stay deffensif ? Everytime i try to attack I lost to a mass stalker force.
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On April 03 2012 22:57 crocodile wrote:
Just ignore these trolls lyyna. If they have nothing of value to contribute to the discussion other than 'herp derp I played bw' and 'thiz isnt viable, heres no good reasons why' just let them make asses out of themselves. You know they wont listen to reason anyway because theyre not here to discuss mech, theyre here to make themselves feel superior as if they know something we dont. Let us continue the discussion and the trolls will eventually go away.
To hiders point about BC vs Banshee: bcs are more supply effective which is useful in a maxed army. Their high health makes them less vulnerable to storm/feedback. Their armor upgrades make them better vs stalkers/carriers. Amatory lets them blow away carriers and void rays. Also they have the 'holy shit he's making bcs' factor.
1) Again I dont really feel like storm is the issue here. Feedback should be highly prioritized over storm in most cases.
2) The advantage with using banshees is that we are constantly harassing (unless they have lots of phoenixes with some speed observers). This means that they will be constantly semilow on energy (as they will be cloacked a lot). So feedback wont be that big an issue.
3) When using heavy banshee play I assumed that we would "suicide" them against a carrier tech switch and tech to bcs instead. (not sure if you read all my posts).
4) When using pdd DPS is a much more important than health.
5) And even if we dont use PDD banshees are MUCH better against stalkers than BC's.
6) As I said I haven't tested this with upgrades, but I highly doubt that BC's become more cost efficient (gas-wise) against stalkers than banshees are against stalkers (even if both are 3-3). But maybe its even out a bit. When that is said I think we first will get 3-3 air like 40+ minutues into the game. I think it would be more relevant testing it with 1/1, 2/1,2/2 or 3/1 or something like that. When we have 3/3 of everything we are mostly going to win every time unless we mess up giganticly.
7) Your comment about food seems pretty relevant. 3 bcs = 24 suply = 900 gas. 9 banshees = 900 gas, 27 suply.
It might be work testing how 3 bcs with 1/1 upgrads does against 15 stalkers (that probably are at least 2/2) and how 8 banshees (1/1) does against 15 stalkers.
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If that happened to me I would try to play defensively and make a few rounds of tanks and hellions to rebuild the army's core, then add in some thors and more BCs. But having that critical tank count is a big deal. Dont be mistaken: If you lose your whole ground army you're in a bad position.
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@Crocodile : If i dont answer to these trolls, they'll just start to say that i'm not trying to prove my facts,that i avoid questions,etc. And people seeing these posts will think the same.
@Gyro : basically, fall back in your bases, and try to get a reprod of hellions/tanks/BC. He need at least 2 waves of warp to attack again, and by that time, u'll have your first reprod wave, and if your BC survived the first fight,u'll have a critical number of these with the reprod(assuming really late game).
Do not hesitate too, to you your fist rounds of hellions to harass his bases, so he has to 'split' his warp, it'll make him mad and can force stupid mistakes
For the banshee/BC thing, anyway, the 'final' point is that ,even if banshees would be deadly if used by a good multitasking player, possible hard transition to air ( building 5 stargates and chronoboost carriers lategame for example) is what makes BC better, and they scale better with uppgrades in term of dps too (but i'll try this idea of delaying BC and getting more banshees probably)
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I feel like you're theorycrafting a bit here hider. You also need more star ports to mass banshees than BCs. And the big one here is that storm IS a problem. I guarantee you if you have a ton of banshees the protoss WILL storm them and you WILL lose them.
Another thing: you don't always have time to scout a carrier switch and suicide your banshees and transition. In a lot of cases, you will just die.
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On April 03 2012 23:24 crocodile wrote:
I feel like you're theorycrafting a bit here hider. You also need more star ports to mass banshees than BCs. And the big one here is that storm IS a problem. I guarantee you if you have a ton of banshees the protoss WILL storm them and you WILL lose them.
Another thing: you don't always have time to scout a carrier switch and suicide your banshees and transition. In a lot of cases, you will just die.
Well your response is theorycraft as well.
I disagree that this is a question of having time to scout a carrier tech switch. Its just a question of scouting actively enough. Sure going for the allround build is easier (as I have said previously), but I feel like there is more potentital in banshees.
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I say you're theorycrafting because what you're saying does not sound like it's derived from game experience. What I am saying IS derived from game experience. And you haven't addressed my points. Are you saying that if the Protoss manages to hide his tech switch from you, you're content with just losing that way?
You have to accept that you CAN'T always scout a carrier switch, and thus you should be better prepared. Banshees do not have more potential either, because a few cannons at each base from the Toss will negate your banshee harass, and then you're just left with a good portion of your army that is not easy to replace because you don't have the production facilities, it is supply inefficient, fragile, and extremely vulnerable to storm and stalkers if you don't have PDD.
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Dont get angry guys
Crocodile, the banshee idea is still good, at least in the "early phase" of lategame, as they're better without uppgrades than BC, and having squads of banshees on the whole map can really scare the protoss
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Oh I completely agree, I make heavy use of banshee play in most of the game, it's just that as you get to the late game you need to have a big, beefy army that can stand up to everything the Protoss throws at you.
Harassment becomes less important compared to supply efficiency. I mean unless they've got massive numbers of Zealots, I even have very few Hellions at this point (by the way to anyone who thinks BFH suck against Zealots, you have never experienced the satisfaction of watching 30 Chargelots melt to a squad of 20 Hellions in a choke point: it's brutal).
By the way, I have more replays of a slightly more aggressive, ghost-free TvP mech style that I've been having success with. I finally got back to my computer after spring break so I've had time to ladder again. I rely on a ~150 food BFH/Tank/Marine/Banshee timing push off of a Reactor expand while taking a 3rd. If I do enough damage, I keep pushing. If I don't, it's time to turtle like Lyyna! If anyone wants replays PM me.
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EPT
