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Sorry to party poop, but I just want to express my thoughts on meching something its been explored to deaths contrary to popular beliefs by many.
Meching in TvP is very very difficult and I just cant see any advantages over standard bio play outside of timings (like banshee/thor, 4/3 fact timing with marines/hellions/tanks etc). Ive been doing mech/skyterran w/e that is not BIO for well over a year now in SEA GM league. What I get from mech is that P players who haven't dealth with mech will often die horribly but the most important thing is that it doesn't matter what mech composition you have in these scenarios.
The P players who aren't firmiliar with mech won't aggressively expand since you just cant go "kill' with an mech army especially if its tank based (as a core), building no cannons to fend off hellion harass (i mean like 5 per base in the late game and these are very good), not simcity-ing for hellion runbys, not exploiting immobility by hitting a bunch of places at once, will attack into a defensive tank line with PFs, not abusing the fact that carrier tech switch + HTs and stalkers will be quite unstoppable and the list goes on. They play like against BIO and lose but with a little bit of experience against mech, they will crush or give the opponent a very rough time.
Turtling up to 3 bases is not so difficult but smart Ps can be on 4 or 5 bases by this time (and more later). Unlike BW where the T is out numbered in expansions/bases, the army that they built can withstand so many engagements (trade VERY efficiently) due to the overwhelming firepower that such turtling is viable. In SC2, the mech army just does not have the firepower do so. People are blinded if they think they do. Everything in the P arsenal takes too long to kill and unless these units gets funneled in a choke or attack into your expensive defensive PF/tank line, taking head on a 200/200 P deathball army literally does not work. The biggest problem is that the hellion buffer isn't enough to absorb damage from zealots, colossus, storms w/e so effectively tanks get one or two shots off and they get evaporated.
The final nail in the coffin is that say a T player has taken a 4th and stretched out thin to defend all the possible attack paths with PFs/turrets and what not (very very expensive). By this time, the P will be on 6 bases or have taken half the map because with mech units there isn't many units that could take out buildings unlike MMM. Once cannon count goes up per base, blink stalkers are out with obs harassing/mapcontrol becomes very with hellions and banshees the only two effective units in doing those in a mech army. The P has all the tech setup + mineral/gas bank by the time so that they can literally just throw anything at you. Zealot/archons, mass zealots/cols to suddenly carriers etc
The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight. In BW, you can fight the P head on even on a wide battle field. You do that in SC2 and your army will get murdered. Because you dont have the firepower nor the "muscle", turtling/dragging out the game longer actually makes mech at such a big disadvantage. I mean the whole point of going mech is to build up your composition strong enough to just roll through everything. But it just cant. Thats why timings like the 4Fact build is viable (small timing window) but a straight up mech game just does not work in this game.
To me, SC2 TvT bio vs mech feels alot like BW TvP which is kind of strange but results in a very entertaining matchup from start to finish.
Id had my fair share of wins with mech but deep inside me tells me that alot of those wins are attributed to the P players not knowing how to deal with it (just pure wins from roasting 70+ probes). Often against players that are smart, or know how to deal with mech, I have to say that it is just not viable and MORE unforgiving than going bio.
I agree that its good to have one or two mech builds up your sleeve, but this will never become standard unless something is done to fix the main issue. Not enough "terrible, terrible damage".
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On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote:
The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight
I guess you are new to this game. I dont care about your ladder rank
Your comment just tells, that you dont know much about this game.
Terran mech army, once maxed, has the most firepower of all army compositions in this game.
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On April 03 2012 09:42 Mongolbonjwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote:
The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight I guess you are new to this game. I dont care about your ladder rank Your comment just tells, that you dont know much about this game. Terran mech army, once maxed, has the most firepower of all army compositions in this game.
It sounds good on paper, but in an actual game heck even in unit tester does it have a hard time against many P compositions. Try it for yourself.
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WE HAVE TRIED IT FOR OURSELVES. We have tried it for as long as this thread has been going on, and as long as the 35 page other mech thread had been going on, and many of us had been doing it before that. STOP assuming we're just theorycrafting here.
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On April 03 2012 09:51 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 09:42 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote:
The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight I guess you are new to this game. I dont care about your ladder rank Your comment just tells, that you dont know much about this game. Terran mech army, once maxed, has the most firepower of all army compositions in this game. It sounds good on paper, but in an actual game heck even in unit tester does it have a hard time against many P compositions. Try it for yourself.
Seriously? Have you even played Starcraft 2 before?
200/200 mech army with ghosts, ravens, and maybe some vikings if going against colossus is hands down the best 200/200 army in the game. Maybe if you're A+moving both armies into each other, sure, it doesn't hold up well. But siege, EMPs, PDDs.
The trolls are out in force in this thread.
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On April 03 2012 12:07 Norseman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 09:51 YyapSsap wrote:On April 03 2012 09:42 Mongolbonjwa wrote:On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote:
The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight I guess you are new to this game. I dont care about your ladder rank Your comment just tells, that you dont know much about this game. Terran mech army, once maxed, has the most firepower of all army compositions in this game. It sounds good on paper, but in an actual game heck even in unit tester does it have a hard time against many P compositions. Try it for yourself. Seriously? Have you even played Starcraft 2 before? 200/200 mech army with ghosts, ravens, and maybe some vikings if going against colossus is hands down the best 200/200 army in the game. Maybe if you're A+moving both armies into each other, sure, it doesn't hold up well. But siege, EMPs, PDDs. The trolls are out in force in this thread.
Ive already stated that Ive been playing the game since its been out. Ive been in the GM league at SEA for the past 5 seasons now. Maybe thats equal to a mid/high masters on NA I dont know. Not only that but ive been Meching all three matchups for more than 9 months. Just like everyone, I want it too work and have tried everything. Literally everything and its just my conclusion that outside of timings, its not viable.
Now the question is have you even played SC2 before? If what ever you said is true, why dont we see mech as a standard along side Bio in TvP? Not explored enough? Sorry but its been explored to death. Ok lets go one step further and look at the pro scene. They analyse, practise and hone builds yet we've yet to see mech being anywhere near being standard amongst them other than timing attacks.
Having success with mech in TvP is gimmicky at best.
Also that composition you have stated does work in TvZ and TvT (minus ghosts) but its in this particular matchup that it just doesn't work.
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@Dawn883 : sorry but i've answered this question like every 3 pages on the thread so i'll let you search a bit, but basically,turrets, PF, sensor towers, air + hellion for defense
@Gyro in this game i failed a lots, forgot 2Nd fact for a while so no hellions, forgot blue flame, forgot to prod ghosts and tanks,etc . . . so imo with the build i use it's ok to hold it as long as you're focued and on top on your macro
@Mongolbonjwa : because it was not me but Nys, my team mate.You watched too late ^^
@FreshVegetables : OH REALLY? OMG, you must be a genius to discover that i'm bm . . . oh wait
I'll not even answer to the viability question
@Hider : in term of damage, banshees are better than BC without uppgrades. As long as you uppgrade these,BC become better and better,and they're not as vulnerable as banshee to storms,archons,phoenix,etc. Also lategame,when the protoss can have like 5 robo, it's easy for him to get mass obs,compared to midgame
@YyapSsap : watch my late game replays,and try to find any lategame situation where the protoss is at least able to be cost effective with his own end game army. Just cost effective, not even killing my whole army
Some general answers :
I arleady told why i think mech is underused. Bio is standard, pro love standards play,and when they try mech,it's with a bio mindset so it fails. I actually never seen a pro trying to do a play similar to mine
Also, for people saying "not viable at high lvl", i wanna remember you something : i'm high master. I'll probably be GM next season if i focus a bit. This build works for me, even if i often fight people who knows me and my build. By extension, this mean than this build can work for any people below me, which is basically 99,997% of the people in the ladder. I don't care about pro having success with my builds (and when it comes to facing pro, i don't have any problem), i care about all these people who are struggling with TvP and who want a new way to play it that will reward them for playing well
Also, i guess i'll stop arguing with "omg this build is not viable" if they dont come with solid arguments. Because these people seems to think a viable build which isn't bio must have (based on most popular complain)
-a FE opening safe versus every allin allowing you to harass and transition easily in midgame
-Ability to blindly crush anything in the midgame
-6 bases at 15 minutes with a perfect defense, the protoss player shouldn't even be able to come near your base!
-A lategame army that'll win anything without scouting or adapting
....Oh wait, is bio viable from there?
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I partly agree with Yyapssap : most of the protoss who loose to terran mech is just because they don't know how to react, especially because you don't see a lot of terran playing mech, and terran players who do mech don't do it well all the time.
That's the strengh of a Terran mech player : surprise effect and opponent ot knowing how to react. That's why I go on playing mech, + all other advantages I find with that style that have already been discussed.
There is no point in discussing that a style is better than another, just make your own experience, play each races and you'll see that with good macro/micro/harrass/timings, everything is possible in sc2 
Lyyna and all T turtling on mass mech : try mass nukes to kill your opponent, nukes are good because you just send 1 unit to do mass damage, you can defend with your big mech ball sieged at home 
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On April 03 2012 09:24 YyapSsap wrote:
Sorry to party poop, but I just want to express my thoughts on meching something its been explored to deaths contrary to popular beliefs by many.
Meching in TvP is very very difficult and I just cant see any advantages over standard bio play outside of timings (like banshee/thor, 4/3 fact timing with marines/hellions/tanks etc). Ive been doing mech/skyterran w/e that is not BIO for well over a year now in SEA GM league. What I get from mech is that P players who haven't dealth with mech will often die horribly but the most important thing is that it doesn't matter what mech composition you have in these scenarios.
The P players who aren't firmiliar with mech won't aggressively expand since you just cant go "kill' with an mech army especially if its tank based (as a core), building no cannons to fend off hellion harass (i mean like 5 per base in the late game and these are very good), not simcity-ing for hellion runbys, not exploiting immobility by hitting a bunch of places at once, will attack into a defensive tank line with PFs, not abusing the fact that carrier tech switch + HTs and stalkers will be quite unstoppable and the list goes on. They play like against BIO and lose but with a little bit of experience against mech, they will crush or give the opponent a very rough time.
Turtling up to 3 bases is not so difficult but smart Ps can be on 4 or 5 bases by this time (and more later). Unlike BW where the T is out numbered in expansions/bases, the army that they built can withstand so many engagements (trade VERY efficiently) due to the overwhelming firepower that such turtling is viable. In SC2, the mech army just does not have the firepower do so. People are blinded if they think they do. Everything in the P arsenal takes too long to kill and unless these units gets funneled in a choke or attack into your expensive defensive PF/tank line, taking head on a 200/200 P deathball army literally does not work. The biggest problem is that the hellion buffer isn't enough to absorb damage from zealots, colossus, storms w/e so effectively tanks get one or two shots off and they get evaporated.
The final nail in the coffin is that say a T player has taken a 4th and stretched out thin to defend all the possible attack paths with PFs/turrets and what not (very very expensive). By this time, the P will be on 6 bases or have taken half the map because with mech units there isn't many units that could take out buildings unlike MMM. Once cannon count goes up per base, blink stalkers are out with obs harassing/mapcontrol becomes very with hellions and banshees the only two effective units in doing those in a mech army. The P has all the tech setup + mineral/gas bank by the time so that they can literally just throw anything at you. Zealot/archons, mass zealots/cols to suddenly carriers etc
The more I think about it, the main culprit is that any 200/200 mech composition does not have the firepower to deal with the P army in a straight up fight. In BW, you can fight the P head on even on a wide battle field. You do that in SC2 and your army will get murdered. Because you dont have the firepower nor the "muscle", turtling/dragging out the game longer actually makes mech at such a big disadvantage. I mean the whole point of going mech is to build up your composition strong enough to just roll through everything. But it just cant. Thats why timings like the 4Fact build is viable (small timing window) but a straight up mech game just does not work in this game.
To me, SC2 TvT bio vs mech feels alot like BW TvP which is kind of strange but results in a very entertaining matchup from start to finish.
Id had my fair share of wins with mech but deep inside me tells me that alot of those wins are attributed to the P players not knowing how to deal with it (just pure wins from roasting 70+ probes). Often against players that are smart, or know how to deal with mech, I have to say that it is just not viable and MORE unforgiving than going bio.
I agree that its good to have one or two mech builds up your sleeve, but this will never become standard unless something is done to fix the main issue. Not enough "terrible, terrible damage".
I used to think like that, but then I took the time to watch some of the replays, and it actually turned out that mech could be extremely cost efficient. Does it really matter how big a bank the toss have if they cant even kill half your army? And slowly and steadily your main army gets bigger and bigger (as you cut scvs). You get a few planeataries to defend agaisnt counterattacks, and then you move out and kill the toss.
So unless you think that its impossible to be that cost efficient as Lyyna prooves in those replays, or that it should actually be impossible for the terran to secure 4 bases/get that 200 mech deathball, then the logic in your post fails.
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On April 03 2012 16:50 Lyyna wrote:
@Dawn883 : sorry but i've answered this question like every 3 pages on the thread so i'll let you search a bit, but basically,turrets, PF, sensor towers, air + hellion for defense
@Gyro in this game i failed a lots, forgot 2Nd fact for a while so no hellions, forgot blue flame, forgot to prod ghosts and tanks,etc . . . so imo with the build i use it's ok to hold it as long as you're focued and on top on your macro
@Mongolbonjwa : because it was not me but Nys, my team mate.You watched too late ^^
@FreshVegetables : OH REALLY? OMG, you must be a genius to discover that i'm bm . . . oh wait
I'll not even answer to the viability question
@Hider : in term of damage, banshees are better than BC without uppgrades. As long as you uppgrade these,BC become better and better,and they're not as vulnerable as banshee to storms,archons,phoenix,etc. Also lategame,when the protoss can have like 5 robo, it's easy for him to get mass obs,compared to midgame
@YyapSsap : watch my late game replays,and try to find any lategame situation where the protoss is at least able to be cost effective with his own end game army. Just cost effective, not even killing my whole army
Some general answers :
I arleady told why i think mech is underused. Bio is standard, pro love standards play,and when they try mech,it's with a bio mindset so it fails. I actually never seen a pro trying to do a play similar to mine
Also, for people saying "not viable at high lvl", i wanna remember you something : i'm high master. I'll probably be GM next season if i focus a bit. This build works for me, even if i often fight people who knows me and my build. By extension, this mean than this build can work for any people below me, which is basically 99,997% of the people in the ladder. I don't care about pro having success with my builds (and when it comes to facing pro, i don't have any problem), i care about all these people who are struggling with TvP and who want a new way to play it that will reward them for playing well
Also, i guess i'll stop arguing with "omg this build is not viable" if they dont come with solid arguments. Because these people seems to think a viable build which isn't bio must have (based on most popular complain)
-a FE opening safe versus every allin allowing you to harass and transition easily in midgame
-Ability to blindly crush anything in the midgame
-6 bases at 15 minutes with a perfect defense, the protoss player shouldn't even be able to come near your base!
-A lategame army that'll win anything without scouting or adapting
....Oh wait, is bio viable from there?
Well I did test BC's and banshees against stalkers unupgraded. Are you saying that BC's gain a bigger relative advantage from armor/weapon upgrades than banshees?
Still I dont think it ever will get close. Banshees seems to be somewhat even in cost efficiency against stalkers (though depending on how you valuate the gas difference). BC's (unupgraded) are just absolutely terrible.
Im not sure why its that relevant that banshees are bad against archons, as 1) Banshees have higher range and hence with some micro shouldn't be taken that much splash damage from them either through kiting or splitting them a bit.
2) EMP should kinda deal with archons.
And here is where I felt the real benefit (in a game). When I didn't have to yamato I actually could use more time focussing on getting some good emps. And I guess if one has the apm for it one could replace the needed yamato cannon actions with a bit of banshee micro.
I think storm is a complete non factor as well, as the toss should use all their HT energy feedbacking.
Regarding phoenixes I think its actually really difficult for the toss player to get the right amount to deal with banshees. What is the right amount of phoenox if they know I have 7 banshees? Maybe 5-6 phoenix? But aren't they going to be absolutely useless in a battle against thors/turrets and pdd? And what if he has miscalculated my banshee count. Then these phoenixes's are pretty much useless (perhaps they can pick up a few tanks for some seconds before they die).
While a lot of speed observers + phoenix's to some extent can deny banshee harass it just doesn't really seem like a hard counter. And you still get the same effect as with BC's. If your main army for some mysterious reason die (or almost get army traded) they can't just warp in a lot of cchargelots and rofl stomp you. Banshees seem a lot better to actually defend against gateway warp ins
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People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss.
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On April 03 2012 21:34 FoolieCoolie wrote:
People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss.
Ask Jjakji if mech doesn't work against Protoss please.
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On April 03 2012 21:36 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 21:34 FoolieCoolie wrote:
People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss. Ask Jjakji if mech doesn't work against Protoss please.
Afaik,It Marines,Thor,Banshee,Raven all in/timing attack not solid marco build.
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I was wondering if It wouldnt be more interesting to emp battlecruisers than using yamamoto? I just feel so frustrated by the feedbacks on my BC's.... Im probably not properly positioned ?
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On April 03 2012 21:34 FoolieCoolie wrote:
People should take this build for what it is. Its not standard, therefore a lot of casual gamers dont know how to deal with it and lose terribly. It will probably give you wins on the ladder or make you feel rewarded for playing well ( like bio cant be played well lol ). Will it work on pro level, korean gm or high masters? No, it will get crushed. But thats ok, cause very few are at that level. Its like advising bronze level players to go roach zvz cause it will give them more wins at their level than ling bling. People should do what works for them... But please drop the almighty attitude like you somehow reinvented tvp and all bio players are dumb, getting killed by an a-move toss.
I have another theory. Bio play can't beat parting style pvt. Its literraly impossible when the toss gets good and intelligent enough. With bio against parting you can never attack cost efficiently. Meanwhile the toss (when it goes into late game and you both get spread on a lot of bases) can either through warp tech or through his main army attack your expansions. As a terran you can't really do anything against it, besides micro with 400 apm, but even with perfect micro you still can't win as he cant keep rebuilding his army again and again.
Its actually kinda a myth that bio is that mobile. In the late late game the toss army is more mobile through warp tech.
Can you win games with bio today? Sure. Can korean terrans win against other korean toss today? Sure. But when people learn to play the parting style to perfection you wont be able to win with bio.
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@Loyd : I used to think that, but the fact i can still win with it even versus people i face a lot (ladder, training) or we know me and can prepare for my style ( clan war) show that its still ok versus a protoss that try to specifically counter it.
Yeah, mass nukes is good. Super lategame i often abuse the harass power of nukes + raven to deny some bases
@Hider : I agree with some of that, the problem being that going banshees instead of BC leaves you weak versus air switch. Also the problem is that, for example, if you're a bit late on EMP, feedback and storm can ripe trough your banshees count. But yeah, can be good if you know that the toss isn't going air, the problem is that they requires a multitask and an active scouting that i personnally cant do. But in a faster player's hands, could be really powerful to mass banshees yeah
@Fooliecoolie : well, at least this work for me at high master/GM in EU, and this will probably work for all the people below me (so basically 99,97% of the people in ladder). Never said it's a build for pro level. Also, you should take care before saying stupid things, as some people in KOR GM are already heavily meching vs P, and even if their build are known, they can still crush a lot of toss.
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@nOondn
Yeah, a lot of people who havent played broodwar dont really understand that mech is actually just factory units. Goes back to bw TvP which was almost exclusively mech (with a few science vessels, maybe wraiths, dropship - 2% of the army). So they keep calling anything other them marine marauder mech. Just wrongly categorized, thats all...
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@lyyna
feel free to supply as with pro replays.
Also, dont put that much value into ladder. Tournaments count.
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It's also nice to compare SC2 with BW, but it's not the same game so please avoid these kind of arguments.
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EPT
