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[G] Lyyna’s TvP : How to mech every protoss cry - Page 11

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Sergio1992
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Italy522 Posts
March 26 2012 19:07 GMT
#201
Lyyna don't feed trolls please. Keep making the guide. If people throws in intelligent questions, answer them, but if people are clearly trolling like this guy that is saying that sensor tower don't show units on minimap just avoid them like the plague.

Thanks for this guide.
ZackAttack
Profile Joined June 2011
United States884 Posts
March 26 2012 19:07 GMT
#202
This build would make ME cry. I hate it when terrans do the nothing but tanks, turrets, and viking thing. No matter how ahead on expansions I get its frustrating to not be able to end it. This build takes everything I hate about playing against terran and brings it to the extreme. Must be a good strat.
It's better aerodynamics for space. - Artosis
Grubbegrabbn
Profile Joined November 2010
Sweden174 Posts
March 26 2012 20:01 GMT
#203
On March 24 2012 03:29 Breach_hu wrote:
http://cupapp.com/hu/replay/view/424/1v1-Entombed_Valley-nfteamBreach-EEvEE
some mech TvP action by me (EU GM Terran)
i can upload some other games aswell, because im trying to play mech myself too.
enjoy~


Just watched this (really cool game) and have read every post in this thread. Can't a high ranked protoss watch and comment on what went wrong here from the P point of view?

To me it looked like both players did well (a couple of small mistakes here and there from both sides) but in the end the mech army prevailed. Was it the cost effectiveness everyone is talking about (60k units lost for T vs 72k for P near the end). To me it looked like the P did everything that a mech army should die from theorycraft-wise (chargelot, templars, archons, immortals, blink stalkers).

Off topic: My head would explode halfway through that game, how the f-ck do you keep up for a freaking long game like that "pp I need to sleep and shave, back in 5... hours?".
Daimai
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Sweden762 Posts
March 26 2012 20:35 GMT
#204
Yeah this is actually pretty imba and I dont know what to do against mech. I always feared mech more than bio too. Even if both are strong comps.
To pray is to accept defeat.
Sc2eleazar
Profile Joined February 2012
United States70 Posts
March 26 2012 20:51 GMT
#205
Regarding the blink stalker harass question: depending on map, wouldn't a well placed PF in the main shut it down fairly well? At least stalling long enough for the sufficient forces to pull back?
Fealthas
Profile Joined May 2011
607 Posts
March 26 2012 20:57 GMT
#206
Nice nice.
crocodile
Profile Joined February 2011
United States615 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-26 21:02:36
March 26 2012 20:59 GMT
#207
Edit: Nvm.
Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny
McTeazy
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada297 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-26 21:15:15
March 26 2012 21:12 GMT
#208
On March 27 2012 02:48 Lyyna wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 02:10 McTeazy wrote:
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote:
@Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .

If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals

Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle


And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.

also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)

. . . Did you at least watched some replays , to see how do i deal with mobility (as already said,mass sensor towers, which shows on the minimap yes, and "MassHack" orbitals)? Same for how engagements goes . .


of course i watched the replays. don't get pissy just because your strategy has weaknesses. every strategy does. Specifically, mech has this problem in every match up.

anyways, you're basically playing the turtle style that protoss usually does against a bio terran who has the more mobile army. You'll notice that they win a fair amount of games. There's some timings in the mid game specifically that can be really difficult. I noticed such a timing in your replays as well. how have you fared against immortal busts? sometimes you only have a 3ish tanks and 10 marines. i think 3 immortals even without gateway support could bust that.

Also, with the sensor towers, when you're on 4 bases you still can't move fast enough to deal with harass effectively i reckon. you expose your back a lot when you move out to the middle, i just haven't seen anyone in the replays exploit it. Do you have an example of you dealing with a heavily dropping/harassing player effectively? i'd interested to see that match
a person is smart, people are stupid
crocodile
Profile Joined February 2011
United States615 Posts
March 26 2012 21:20 GMT
#209
On March 27 2012 06:12 McTeazy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 02:48 Lyyna wrote:
On March 27 2012 02:10 McTeazy wrote:
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote:
@Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .

If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals

Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle


And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.

also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)

. . . Did you at least watched some replays , to see how do i deal with mobility (as already said,mass sensor towers, which shows on the minimap yes, and "MassHack" orbitals)? Same for how engagements goes . .


of course i watched the replays. don't get pissy just because your strategy has weaknesses. every strategy does. Specifically, mech has this problem in every match up.

anyways, you're basically playing the turtle style that protoss usually does against a bio terran who has the more mobile army. You'll notice that they win a fair amount of games. There's some timings in the mid game specifically that can be really difficult. I noticed such a timing in your replays as well. how have you fared against immortal busts? sometimes you only have a 3ish tanks and 10 marines. i think 3 immortals even without gateway support could bust that.

Also, with the sensor towers, when you're on 4 bases you still can't move fast enough to deal with harass effectively i reckon. you expose your back a lot when you move out to the middle, i just haven't seen anyone in the replays exploit it. Do you have an example of you dealing with a heavily dropping/harassing player effectively? i'd interested to see that match

Why don't you play him and find out? You're a protoss right?
Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny
darkcloud8282
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada776 Posts
March 26 2012 21:39 GMT
#210
Nice guide, maybe you can include some replays submitted by other people in the thread since there seems to be so many variations of going mech in general (heavy ground/air). I think it will help in grasping what unit composition works best in various scenarios.
crocodile
Profile Joined February 2011
United States615 Posts
March 26 2012 21:56 GMT
#211
On March 27 2012 06:39 darkcloud8282 wrote:
Nice guide, maybe you can include some replays submitted by other people in the thread since there seems to be so many variations of going mech in general (heavy ground/air). I think it will help in grasping what unit composition works best in various scenarios.

Maybe its just because I submitted some of these replays, but I agree.
Master League Terran. Huge fan of Quantic Gaming and ROOTDestiny
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-26 22:10:47
March 26 2012 22:04 GMT
#212
On March 27 2012 05:01 Grubbegrabbn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 24 2012 03:29 Breach_hu wrote:
http://cupapp.com/hu/replay/view/424/1v1-Entombed_Valley-nfteamBreach-EEvEE
some mech TvP action by me (EU GM Terran)
i can upload some other games aswell, because im trying to play mech myself too.
enjoy~


Just watched this (really cool game) and have read every post in this thread. Can't a high ranked protoss watch and comment on what went wrong here from the P point of view?

To me it looked like both players did well (a couple of small mistakes here and there from both sides) but in the end the mech army prevailed. Was it the cost effectiveness everyone is talking about (60k units lost for T vs 72k for P near the end). To me it looked like the P did everything that a mech army should die from theorycraft-wise (chargelot, templars, archons, immortals, blink stalkers).

Off topic: My head would explode halfway through that game, how the f-ck do you keep up for a freaking long game like that "pp I need to sleep and shave, back in 5... hours?".


there's a couple of reasons terran won. first, when toss had about 15 blink stalkers and terran had 4 marines and a tank, toss didn't just blink in and kill terran for making 3 CCs so fast. second, toss consistently makes too many stalkers and always has his chargelots trapped behind his stalkers or archons whenever he tries to engage. he also consistently chases hellions with pure chargelot and so loses a lot of chargelots for free. third, never makes any colossi so he hasn't got any splash to deal with hellions, because he keeps using storm instead of just making them into archons, which also means terran didn't have to make any vikings. lastly, he consistently fights with either half his army or attacks up a ramp (on terran's side of the map.........), the one or two times toss actually fights terran on even supply in the middle of the map toss rapes.
c0se
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany148 Posts
March 26 2012 22:09 GMT
#213
On March 27 2012 06:12 McTeazy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 02:48 Lyyna wrote:
On March 27 2012 02:10 McTeazy wrote:
On March 26 2012 16:36 Lyyna wrote:
@Zarent : with sensors towers, i see you coming with your stalkers, so by the time they blink up, there is banshees,hellions,and a raven on the cliff starting to fire,with a few tanks on the way. Basically hellions with proper micro handle stalkers really well, so with banshees in pdd,this is ridiculously easy. And if the stalker's number is too high,i'll just wait my tanks to engage. And the longer it lasts, the more BC and raven i'll get . . .

If i choose to attack your army, i can just choose to set a trap for your stalkers as soon as i see them retreat , remember i can track with sensor towers and my mass orbitals

Considering your others statements amd McTeazy's one, i think than like some others people, you didn't watch any replays and just react to "Mech TvP", assuming my style is some 2 bases blind turtle


And you completely fail to address any questions about your strategy. The issue i'm trying to get at is the problem mech has with every matchup. the direct engagements are typically very good, but your immobility is easy to abuse. specifically in tvp, blink stalkers and immortal drops i believe would be hard to deal with. The other disadvantage is that a direct engagement i don't think would necessarily go in your favour in tvp. but i may be wrong about the second point.

also, i may be wrong, but i sensor towers don't show units on the mini map do they? this kind of limits your response time (i;m imagining thors and tanks trying to crunch up a ramp into a main)

. . . Did you at least watched some replays , to see how do i deal with mobility (as already said,mass sensor towers, which shows on the minimap yes, and "MassHack" orbitals)? Same for how engagements goes . .


of course i watched the replays. don't get pissy just because your strategy has weaknesses. every strategy does. Specifically, mech has this problem in every match up.

anyways, you're basically playing the turtle style that protoss usually does against a bio terran who has the more mobile army. You'll notice that they win a fair amount of games. There's some timings in the mid game specifically that can be really difficult. I noticed such a timing in your replays as well. how have you fared against immortal busts? sometimes you only have a 3ish tanks and 10 marines. i think 3 immortals even without gateway support could bust that.

Also, with the sensor towers, when you're on 4 bases you still can't move fast enough to deal with harass effectively i reckon. you expose your back a lot when you move out to the middle, i just haven't seen anyone in the replays exploit it. Do you have an example of you dealing with a heavily dropping/harassing player effectively? i'd interested to see that match

which replays did you watch? all replays i've seen so far hes going Marines>Banshee>Thor>Tanks and never 10mins 3tanks+10 marines :/
Lyyna
Profile Joined June 2011
France776 Posts
March 26 2012 22:52 GMT
#214
@darkcloud : i wait to finish the guide before including other's people stuff. But i keep track of every replays / vod / stream submitted to me or on the thread

@McTeazy : well, i'm don't sure you watched right ones then . . . as c0se said, my open is basically marines into banshee and thors
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/459600-how-to-mech-them-cry-lyynas-mech-in-hots - The 2014 Mech guide ! http://www.twitch.tv/lyyna for stream and contact infos
SEA KarMa
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia452 Posts
March 26 2012 22:59 GMT
#215
sounds good but high templar hard counters all of these units...

User was warned for this post
"terrible, terrible damage". terrible, terrible design.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
March 26 2012 23:30 GMT
#216
Go and figure what he will be producing most. Of course it is not pure "only Mech units", people whine about Broodlord/Infestor(Corruptor) all the time, when over 50% of the Zergs army is in basic units such as roaches/blings and lings in all of those games, apart from the "one in i a million" stalemates. This is really not about word picking. And if you do it, do it right and read what is written in the section "attributes" of those units:

Not to get into semantics, but mech has historically been used to describe an army that mainly consists of factory units, whereas in this build the majority of endgame units features a very diverse mix.

Please drop the pitchforks, I am merely suggesting to the build creator that he consider a different name for it to better describe its goals. In the past builds have had more descriptive names. The only advantage I see I have already said:

EDIT: As I think more about this, Mech might have some validity since it instantly conjures in your mind a turtly style, a focus on your opponent having the wrong composition of units at max and/or inferior upgrades, and skipping earlygame/midgame in terms of potential aggression and weakness.

Food for thought. Keep maintaining the guide because I personally have lost to variations of this (usually more map-control planetaries for additional third protection) and those replays are just great.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Lyyna
Profile Joined June 2011
France776 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 00:08:19
March 27 2012 00:06 GMT
#217
@Karma : well, you have tanks and ghosts for a reason. Also protoss has to make really accurate and fast choices at feedbacking in lategame, because you'll have
-Banshees
-BC
-Raven
-PDD (yeah yeah, if he's slow on getting the ravens he'll have to care about 10 Pdd on the battlefield)
-Medivacs (a few for ghosts)
-Thors
Hard to choose what to feedback,he?

@Danglars : well, for me mech is everything involving metal-like units. And this is ok for me to use it because actually, for a lots of people, mech = factory units = A moving 50 tanks brainlessly into opponents army. It's a bio like saying "Marine/Tank" versus Z for example . . there is medivacs, there is vikings,there is marauder,etc. Actually i want the "mech" concept to evolve in the same way, thinking of it as an ball of both "mech ground" and "mech air" units. I'll probably not succeed to start this evolution (actually,succeeding at spreading this build and the turtling concept in the community would already be an huge victory for me), but it is one of my ultimate goals :D

Anyway, i would like to thanks every people supporting me (because it's huge for motivation) and every people bashing me too (because i want to show them how stupid they are :D). Cheers!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/459600-how-to-mech-them-cry-lyynas-mech-in-hots - The 2014 Mech guide ! http://www.twitch.tv/lyyna for stream and contact infos
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10325 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-27 00:46:25
March 27 2012 00:44 GMT
#218
I don't think mech/air should be called mech just because of the fact that they're mechanic and metal, which has more to do with the visuals/lore of the units rather than with actual strategy.

People are wrong, like you say, to call pure factory units the only kind of mech. In SC2, Terran is designed so that past a certain point, pure bio, pure mech, or pure air just loses effectiveness -- the micro required will become too intense, and so important support units will be "needed" such as medivacs and tanks for bio, and ghosts and vikings for mech.

However using that logic to justify calling mech/air to be "mech" simply because they synergize wwell together (as do marine tank medivac ghost viking) is flawed.

Marine Marauder Tank Thor Medivac Ghost Viking (with emphasis on Marine/Tank) is still Bio to me. The reason why is because the type of unit with the greatest amount of food is the bio units like the marines. Secondly, another important reason is because all the upgrades are focused on bio units. You get double bio upgrades, you don't get double vehicle upgrades.

Mech with air support and ghosts, but emphasis on Mech, is Mech to me. However, when you start to add more and more starports later in the game, and upgrades for both mech and air units are about the same, I would then call it Mech/Air, because it is a half-half composition.

When you start to remax on BCs or such, I would call that an air transition. Even if you still have some tanks and other mech ground units, they then become the support for that air army.

Another reason is because the three styles, bio, mech, and air are very distinct. Composition is not the only thing separating them, as you know. Bio is dependent on smaller, but more active and aggressive numbers, harassing, pressuring, and chipping away your opponent. Mech is defensive, more passive, and relies (generally) on large numbers. Air is a strange mix of the two, but still different. It can really exploit ground based army's mobility barrier by flying into air space, allowing you to harass and pressure in a unique way, and seize map control from your opponent.

If you're playing defensive, but with some banshee harass and such, I would still call that Mech - the main focus is on mech. You're still playing defensively (mainly). But once you switch to heavy BC, and start flying around killing bases and such, that is not so defensive and passive anymore. A mix between the two should be called Mech/Air or Air/Mech, to show the equally divided composition/focus/style.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
McTeazy
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada297 Posts
March 27 2012 00:47 GMT
#219
On March 27 2012 07:52 Lyyna wrote:
@darkcloud : i wait to finish the guide before including other's people stuff. But i keep track of every replays / vod / stream submitted to me or on the thread

@McTeazy : well, i'm don't sure you watched right ones then . . . as c0se said, my open is basically marines into banshee and thors


ok, i found a replay of something like you described. still though, it's 1 banshee and 20 marines and 4 tanks instead of 13 3 and none. is there a replay of you defending an immortal all in that you can remember? it just seems really really thin at that point. maybe if you alter your opening a bit you can make it safer and then transition?
a person is smart, people are stupid
Kharnage
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia920 Posts
March 27 2012 02:30 GMT
#220
On March 27 2012 09:47 McTeazy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2012 07:52 Lyyna wrote:
@darkcloud : i wait to finish the guide before including other's people stuff. But i keep track of every replays / vod / stream submitted to me or on the thread

@McTeazy : well, i'm don't sure you watched right ones then . . . as c0se said, my open is basically marines into banshee and thors


ok, i found a replay of something like you described. still though, it's 1 banshee and 20 marines and 4 tanks instead of 13 3 and none. is there a replay of you defending an immortal all in that you can remember? it just seems really really thin at that point. maybe if you alter your opening a bit you can make it safer and then transition?


4 tanks, 20 marines and a banshee should be able to hold an immortal bust. It'll come down to control and unit placement, but still, that's a pretty decent force.
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