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On March 29 2012 09:03 Lyyna wrote:
hm, the problem (imo) with reactor rax expo is that it delays the tech a lot because you delay your 100 "factory's" gas, and you'll be limited by mineral due to your first 2 marines from reactor and the CC. It's a good build to be safe versus most allin like 3G VR but it delays a lot your midgame (and it's harder to hold stuff like 2 bases immortal bust :/).
I'm working on a delayed 111 (getting 15 gas) which seems good,as you can afford a relatively FE while getting the starport
Yeah thats true but you don't get behind economically. Sometimes my timing is a bit messed up so I did lose to dedicated 2 base pressures in the past, but usually I have 1 or 2 ghosts out with ~3 tanks and a good amount of hellions and that shuts pretty much everything down in case of robo pressure (and after that the protoss is in trouble because there are hellions flooding everywhere through his probes because he has not enough units to spread them for defense).
1-1-1 expo is definitely not an opening based on an economic advantage, because you don't even have the ressources to afford all the units from a rax, a factory and a starport and additionally build a CC. So you have to cut units at some point to get out the CC.
I think there is no real alternative for an economic opening if you don't want to get more than 1 rax. Usually you would open 1 rax expand but thats only safe if you get a couple of rax immediately afterwards, otherwise you have a hard time against VR all ins because there is just not the marine number to deal with it.
If you never want to attack ever it doesn't make a difference if your economy is severely worse than the economy from your opponent, but if you actually have midgame timings to punish greedy protosses it will make a huge difference.
I'm not a big fan of 50+ minute games, my TvPs usually are between 17 and 30 minutes long.
edit:
are you safe against VR allins with 15 gas 1-1-1?
I remember that I used to play with 1-1-1 opening into FE and I barely got a viking out if they chose to go for VR, and that was with 13 gas.
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well, 111 CAN be economical, you just need to cut some units to get a CC if you see he's FE'ing, as you'll not need these units, then catch up by getting a relatively fast third due to excess mineral and harassing with cloakshee. People are too much in that mindset of "I need to expo before 20 supply and never cut unit production".
And at least 111 is better when it comes to hold allins ...
Well, i'll see something cheesy is coming with hellions scout, so ill have to hold a few seconds without a viking . . but he comes out relatively early
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On March 29 2012 18:11 Lyyna wrote:
well, 111 CAN be economical, you just need to cut some units to get a CC if you see he's FE'ing, as you'll not need these units, then catch up by getting a relatively fast third due to excess mineral and harassing with cloakshee. People are too much in that mindset of "I need to expo before 20 supply and never cut unit production".
And at least 111 is better when it comes to hold allins ...
Well, i'll see something cheesy is coming with hellions scout, so ill have to hold a few seconds without a viking . . but he comes out relatively early
I guess it comes down to if you want to do a banshee followup you should open 1-1-1 expo, if you only want to get a starport for helliondrops/vikings against colossus you shouldn't open 1-1-1 expo (in my opinion).
The thing I know is that I played 1-1-1 expo in TvP for a long time and for me personally it was alright but my opening phase always felt bumpy and I was never 100% what was coming and how order my units against what. With my new opening I simply don't care and I don't have to make a lot of assumptions, the only important premisse I have to base my reasoning on is the gas count (1 or 2) and the amount of chrono boosts spent before the first stalker comes out.
edit:
and as this thread is about your build which always goes cloakshee expo I think 1-1-1 is the best (safest) opening 
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i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work
...
Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can !
but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp
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Lyyna: Have you taken a look on the 3 new ladder maps?
What are your thoughts on them relating to your playstyle?
Metropolis seems like a mech-paradise imo...
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On March 29 2012 20:08 CoR wrote:i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can ! but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp
I explained in the guide (and like 5 times in the thread) the reason of goody stopping mech and why it doesn't rely apply to this style
@Sam : Metropolis is nice for mech. Daybreak is ok, can sometimes be hard but lategame you can easily lock key locations with PF and sensors towers. Ohana may be a bit hard but seems OK
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On March 29 2012 20:08 CoR wrote:i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can ! but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp
Thank for your contribution.
Anyway, 1 1 1 doesn't always make you behind in economy because the Protoss would fear some kind of all in and will probably cuts some probes and adds robo/gates to hold an attack that will never come. :p
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@Sam : Metropolis is nice for mech. Daybreak is ok, can sometimes be hard but lategame you can easily lock key locations with PF and sensors towers. Ohana may be a bit hard but seems OK
that is what I was thinking too.
Daybreak with mech might often times evolve similar to ZvP lategame (on this map) -with very positioning based, long games?
In lategame ZvP it basically comes down to top middle and bottom middle respective 6th bases and a archon toilett vs broodlord derpfeast (considering Protoss does not straight allin on this map like 80% of the times due to hard to defend 3rd)
Ohana I have no cloue what to think of...
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What I get away from this list is that all the Season 1 and 2 GSL terrans won their TvZs with (bio)mech.
SCV ALLIN FIGHTIN' !
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On March 29 2012 20:23 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:08 CoR wrote:i have the ULTIMATE REASON why this can NEVER work ... Goody switched to protoss vs protoss because he cant mecht vs protoss and if the god of mech cant play mech vs protoss, no one in this world can ! but IF this really works, GODS HEAVEN give this to goody so he stops playing crappy pvp Thank for your contribution. Anyway, 1 1 1 doesn't always make you behind in economy because the Protoss would fear some kind of all in and will probably cuts some probes and adds robo/gates to hold an attack that will never come. :p
first thing any protoss does against a suspected 111 is get two observers. once that CC goes down they;d know what's up
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Very nice write-up, and very very informative! =D
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which maps u guys decided to vote down to play mech not only TvP but TvT TvZ TvP in next season 7 maps ?
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Answer me this, if you will:
*Immortals (shields) and stalkers (blink) are huge problems for the much more costly mech army, and how many hits they cannot take. Ghosts are out of EMPs; your answer?
*Tanks and Thors do not have any advantage damage wise over Zealots and High Templar (Feedbacking the Thors and BCs makes them a problem not a solution) .
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@foxj : Only taldarim altar for me
@Aaycumi :
-Well, if your ghosts are out of position or energy when he engages (sensor tower), youre doing it wrong (you dont need 15 emp for each fight) . But basically,stalker are terrible vs my army (raven and tank destroy these). Immortals will have to get through a shield of hellions and thors while banshee are shotting everything.
-Zealots are melted by uppgraded tanks and thors, hellions and ghosts have bonus damage against them, and banshee and BC deals good amount of damage. Well, feedbacking thor is energy's waste for him, and feedbacking BC can be penible but . . . well, , just retreat these to force HT to come in range of tanks and ghosts
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@aaycumi ; this is pure theorycrafting, there are many things to do BEFORE final push that will kill protoss. You can take huge advantage with banshee cloak, helion harass... and force protoss do build specific units that will be perfect for your composition.
Timings are also important, constant harrassing eco/pylons powering many gateways... It's not easy to play, that's why it's not 100% win. But it is very efficient and interesting if you have enough patience to learn it correctly and explore another way of playing tvp matchup.
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This build is good, but it does not work with out adjusts like building barracks and marines at the beginning of the game because you float minerals and you have to be using those minerals when you get them. You can stop marine production when you have enough thors/tanks/hellions
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Russian Federation16 Posts
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On March 30 2012 07:23 Kurorosh wrote:
fpvods required.
Sorry, I am not trolling, but can't you just watch replays and click on "view perspective" so you watch it from Lynna's perspective?
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On March 28 2012 09:02 Lyyna wrote:
Well,the fact is that the army is still based on mech. It's a bit like TvZ marine/tank : the longer the game goes on, the more mech/viking you add,to replace your marines. And we don't call it BioMechAir Same thing here, you replace scv,hellions,and early marines with air, but the core (and the main midgame army) is still mech
Well then, yes I agree. But it sounded like in previous posts (not just from you) that, for example, if you were to remax on a more supply efficient air army, it would still be mech. Perhaps if you look at the game as a whole, yes, you can generally still say you were playing "mech" that game, only incorporating mass air in a couple occasions since they synergize so well, but if you were to look at the specific points in time during the game and name the style the terran is currently playing, you should call it and air style.
Just to make sure -- are you saying that it's not bio mech air because you were playing with mainly bio compositions throughout most of the game, or because the style is still "bio"? If you are looking to generally say what style you were playing overall, bio would make sense. But if you were to look at a specific point in time, I would call it bio not because of the previous events in that game but because at the current time, the bio tech path should be much more opened up than the other two (and have more upgrades as well). So if you were to go mech and remax on BCs at some point, overall it's still mech, sure, but during that game you still transitioned to mass air at some specific point, even if it was just shortly.
maybe there was a misunderstanding or we still disagree, but i hope i clarified a bit?
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EPT
