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On March 18 2012 06:20 phiinix wrote:
Maybe it's the bias I have towards anything that's churned out of a Tang collab but I feel like this is a very sub par build.
Well that's not very nice  I don't think the build is sub-par in any way, it's not entirely uncommon or unconventional to do this sort of style. As mentioned in the guide, pros like Rainbow frequently open without add-ons.
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On March 18 2012 06:20 phiinix wrote:
Maybe it's the bias I have towards anything that's churned out of a Tang collab but I feel like this is a very sub par build. I feel like if you're going to open rax, fact, expand, you can either go reactor marine and get more marines, go reactor hellion and get more hellions, or choose this sort of middle of the road not-a-lot-of-marines-and-not-a-lot-of-hellions. It seems to rely on being unconventional to do damage. What's the reasoning for not getting a reactor?
Also, do 3 marines really do that much damage? (the following is speculation) I feel like a queen and a couple drones are more than enough to hold, and by the time the hellion arrives, the spine is done/almost done. Your opponent imo had horrible spine placement in the ss. Why was it all the way on the left? Why not, i don't know, guarding the entrance to the main?
Not having a reactor = you can have alot more units in the short run. This way u kinda stall long enough for hellions to kick in for harass. Watch the replays to see if the queen + drones can really defend it, cuz its cant
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Should drop a tech lab and get maras + shell to really kill queens. It works.
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On March 18 2012 09:12 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Should drop a tech lab and get maras + shell to really kill queens. It works.
The transition is up to you. Infact you can make up your own transition if you want. The idea of this opening is that there is a timing where you just attack with marine and hellions. W/e happens afterwards is up to you 
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On March 18 2012 09:20 OpTiKDream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 09:12 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Should drop a tech lab and get maras + shell to really kill queens. It works. The transition is up to you. Infact you can make up your own transition if you want. The idea of this opening is that there is a timing where you just attack with marine and hellions. W/e happens afterwards is up to you
Yes, I know. I do such an opening, but I do 12 rax 14 rax 15 gas, marines until 100 gas, then fac, then tech lab + mara and shells. That way hellion comes out with hellions, take a few scvs for repair and go mara hellion marine pressure, forgo the banshee and go into a faster expo. Just saying, it's just another rax and delayed fac, yet still early enough to continue the pressure before/right as speed finishes.
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On March 18 2012 09:33 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 09:20 OpTiKDream wrote:On March 18 2012 09:12 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Should drop a tech lab and get maras + shell to really kill queens. It works. The transition is up to you. Infact you can make up your own transition if you want. The idea of this opening is that there is a timing where you just attack with marine and hellions. W/e happens afterwards is up to you Yes, I know. I do such an opening, but I do 12 rax 14 rax 15 gas, marines until 100 gas, then fac, then tech lab + mara and shells. That way hellion comes out with hellions, take a few scvs for repair and go mara hellion marine pressure, forgo the banshee and go into a faster expo. Just saying, it's just another rax and delayed fac, yet still early enough to continue the pressure before/right as speed finishes.
I like that concept, I used to hellion/marauder a lot in TvZ. If you move into marauders with upgrades, is your expansion any earlier than banshees?
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I feel like this has a lot of potential, but I feel like that doing the reactor hellions could be better.
If you follow it up with the 1/1/1, I feel like it is strongest. I know not if the whole timing gets thrown off by getting the reactor, but I feel like if you go with what people will expect and then deviate you will do more damage. I, personally, will generally have built my spine at 5 minutes no matter what and extra queens incoming, I don't know the timing on that.
How would this build respond to that?
How map dependent is this?
What happens if the person is going to attempt roach/ling aggression? It feels like there could be a weakness should the aggression be aggressed upon itself. Roach/Ling is stronger than marine/hellion due to the HP and speed differentials involved. (Roaches have more HP, lings have more speed, can outrun and pin the units so the roaches can hit them, unless I am misunderstanding the situation)
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On March 18 2012 14:10 Hossinaut wrote:
I feel like this has a lot of potential, but I feel like that doing the reactor hellions could be better.
If you follow it up with the 1/1/1, I feel like it is strongest. I know not if the whole timing gets thrown off by getting the reactor, but I feel like if you go with what people will expect and then deviate you will do more damage. I, personally, will generally have built my spine at 5 minutes no matter what and extra queens incoming, I don't know the timing on that.
How would this build respond to that?
How map dependent is this?
What happens if the person is going to attempt roach/ling aggression? It feels like there could be a weakness should the aggression be aggressed upon itself. Roach/Ling is stronger than marine/hellion due to the HP and speed differentials involved. (Roaches have more HP, lings have more speed, can outrun and pin the units so the roaches can hit them, unless I am misunderstanding the situation)
U hitting them before they do roach ling aggersion. By apply aggresion, u will mess up their timings and stall it (or even kill them before they get the chance to).
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I see, and apologize for my misunderstanding. What is the actual timing on your attack? A spine should be up by 5:50 if I understand correctly.
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On March 18 2012 15:11 Hossinaut wrote:
I see, and apologize for my misunderstanding. What is the actual timing on your attack? A spine should be up by 5:50 if I understand correctly.
U have 3 marines to stall for the first hellion to come before that spine is ever up. The guide shows that mine landed at 5 minutes of game time
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This build would probably rape a zerg if they dont get a spine at like 4:30~ to protect vs helions etc. Also what if the 15h 15g 15p with speed first, wouldn't speed kill almost everything? Do great indirect damage but it doesn't look very all in at all, it looks like a mild eco pressure (the naked rax and factory push at 5~ i mean)
All in all nice guide and i could see this being really strong
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On March 18 2012 15:21 iiGreetings wrote:
This build would probably rape a zerg if they dont get a spine at like 4:30~ to protect vs helions etc. Also what if the 15h 15g 15p with speed first, wouldn't speed kill almost everything? Do great indirect damage but it doesn't look very all in at all, it looks like a mild eco pressure (the naked rax and factory push at 5~ i mean)
All in all nice guide and i could see this being really strong
Thats why you have hellions lol.
Either way speed shouldn't be done till like 7 minutes in game i believe.
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It will put you really behind, but I think you can kill the ground assault. I know not if it would be able to deal with the banshee followup, however.
It seems very strong for sure.
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This build is not very good.
Every. Single. Zerg. will assume cloak banshee if they see early marine helion pressure with no add ons. 1-2 spine crawlers stops this build and he's free to drone because building 1 marine and helion at a time is nothing.
if you're going to do a build like this you might as well proxy the rax. hell dedicate a ton thinking it's a 2 rax and your banshee will come as more of a surprise, see idra vs bomber MLG.
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This is a very old build of Brat_Ok. Was using it long time ago, but better zergs started to get that initial spine crawler and not delay speed. Also, they would make additional queen (in total of three or more) which totally shut downs medivac elevator and even more banshee play (most of them assume Banshees if they see add-on-less factory).
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Watched the replay vs Zelniq. I can't see this working against any zerg at the high masters level. A good zerg will either throw up a spine crawler by default that finishes before the timing hits, or be aggressively taking the watch tower with his initial lings and see the attack coming well before it hits. It does punish the greedy high diamond to mid masters zergs though, who are super reliant on timings and don't bother to scout what you're actually doing past, "I scouted a gas! Finish my spines by 6:00." >.> I might play with this a bit and keep it in my pocket for a playhem tourney or two, but I have my doubts on its longevity as a standard opener.
If you're looking for a build to hit them with more units than they're expecting at an odd timing, I think going for more like a reactor rax + reactor fac + medivac build that hits before lair is finished is a much more effective way to go. Rather than trying to hit them with a few units at an awkward early timing and just hoping they didn't build anything at all yet, it hits at a time where most zergs only have a few lings and *maybe* a roach warren (which you will have scouted by now) with so many units it's hard to deal with, especially if you drop them in the back. In the very worst case forces a ton of units right about the time they're trying to ramp up their gas production for the mutas/infestors they're planning for in the midgame.
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On March 18 2012 21:05 Huragius wrote:
This is a very old build of Brat_Ok. Was using it long time ago, but better zergs started to get that initial spine crawler and not delay speed. Also, they would make additional queen (in total of three or more) which totally shut downs medivac elevator and even more banshee play (most of them assume Banshees if they see add-on-less factory).
On March 18 2012 21:05 ArcticFox wrote:
Watched the replay vs Zelniq. I can't see this working against any zerg at the high masters level. A good zerg will either throw up a spine crawler by default that finishes before the timing hits, or be aggressively taking the watch tower with his initial lings and see the attack coming well before it hits. It does punish the greedy high diamond to mid masters zergs though, who are super reliant on timings and don't bother to scout what you're actually doing past, "I scouted a gas! Finish my spines by 6:00." >.> I might play with this a bit and keep it in my pocket for a playhem tourney or two, but I have my doubts on its longevity as a standard opener.
If you're looking for a build to hit them with more units than they're expecting at an odd timing, I think going for more like a reactor rax + reactor fac + medivac build that hits before lair is finished is a much more effective way to go. Rather than trying to hit them with a few units at an awkward early timing and just hoping they didn't build anything at all yet, it hits at a time where most zergs only have a few lings and *maybe* a roach warren (which you will have scouted by now) with so many units it's hard to deal with, especially if you drop them in the back. In the very worst case forces a ton of units right about the time they're trying to ramp up their gas production for the mutas/infestors they're planning for in the midgame.
This is interesting. I feel like the reason its able to be dealt with so quickly once you know it exists is because the followup CC is late- if it was possible to expo faster with this, while applying the pressure, I feel like it would be stronger. I must concur with the point concerning the banshee followup, however, if the factory and star port are out of sight range of the ramp, it may give you a few moments of hesitation before the Zerg realizes that hellions and marines are only coming one at a time.
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What happens if your aggression fails? Wouldnt it be gg?
I like this build but it would take really good control and micro to be able to win and be ahead. I feel if the zerg just happens to not play greedy or blindly builds a roach warren because he/she sees a fact or a gas then its gg.
Personally, (from watching high play and being diamond myself,) I dont see this working even at my level, yet alone masters. It might be effective from bronze to gold.
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On March 19 2012 03:31 xUnSeEnx wrote:
What happens if your aggression fails? Wouldnt it be gg?
I like this build but it would take really good control and micro to be able to win and be ahead. I feel if the zerg just happens to not play greedy or blindly builds a roach warren because he/she sees a fact or a gas then its gg.
Personally, (from watching high play and being diamond myself,) I dont see this working even at my level, yet alone masters. It might be effective from bronze to gold.
I'm confused about your argument, xunseenx. You say the build would take good control and micro to be able to win/get a lead, but that it would only work in bronze-gold? Wouldn't you agree that it can be a very strong build for a master level player who has developed strong micro and multitasking, and also a good build for lower-level players looking to improve these aspects in their game?
Also, I feel like people are over-estimating how much of a commitment it is to go for this early pressure, because you can still start your expansion CC as early as 6:30 and play out a macro game without banshees. Even in the worst-case scenario when you do no direct damage with the initial marine/hellion pressure, you're guaranteed to force extra defenses (most often zerglings) which means you won't be in a severe economic deficit.
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isnt it more viable to pull scvs out of gas after 100 because u only build ... marines, hellions, command center? and after cc put em back of course? the banshee follow up doesn't seem to be the most important aspect of the build i understand...?
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EPT
