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On March 24 2012 02:02 ref4 wrote:I think this is great build to throw in in a Bo3 or Bo5 to keep your opponent honest (as aforementioned) and I think it will work on gold to low diamond zergs but not on bronze, silver and master and up for the following reasons: 1. Bronze and silver zergs (the real ones, not smurfs) loves to use roaches in all their MU's for some reason and thus will throw down a roach warren extremely early no matter what. Often they will even throw it down before getting their expansion. So by the time your hellion arrives he'll have a couple of roaches waiting and the momentum of your whole build is crushed, just like that. 2. High lvl zergs will get their speed ASAP. If they scouted gas from you they will assume reactor hellion so they will also throw down at least 1 spine crawler as soon as their natural finishes which will be done right as your 3 marines arrive. If they sense aggression following they will throw down another spine to cover the other side of their expansion if on maps with wide naturals and either get a roach warren or simply pump out speedlings and with spines, queens and speedlings/roaches the aggression this build intends to deliver will again, be thwarted. At best using this build you can deny watch towers and creep and a 3rd, which is what reactor hellion expand does anyway. So in theory, this will work extremely well on greedy, mid-lvl zergs who neglect to put down spines until they have 2 saturated bases. But those zergs really do deserved to get killed by anything anyway 
well to your first point, u should have alrdy scouted if he even has a expansion. Otherwise why push they 1 basing? They obviously have alot of units and you should play defensive there.
The 2nd point you made isnt always true. They dont always get speed asap, they can go gasless and drone even harder (Basically abit more greedy). And yes they can get away with it too.
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On March 24 2012 14:36 OpTiKDream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 02:02 ref4 wrote:I think this is great build to throw in in a Bo3 or Bo5 to keep your opponent honest (as aforementioned) and I think it will work on gold to low diamond zergs but not on bronze, silver and master and up for the following reasons: 1. Bronze and silver zergs (the real ones, not smurfs) loves to use roaches in all their MU's for some reason and thus will throw down a roach warren extremely early no matter what. Often they will even throw it down before getting their expansion. So by the time your hellion arrives he'll have a couple of roaches waiting and the momentum of your whole build is crushed, just like that. 2. High lvl zergs will get their speed ASAP. If they scouted gas from you they will assume reactor hellion so they will also throw down at least 1 spine crawler as soon as their natural finishes which will be done right as your 3 marines arrive. If they sense aggression following they will throw down another spine to cover the other side of their expansion if on maps with wide naturals and either get a roach warren or simply pump out speedlings and with spines, queens and speedlings/roaches the aggression this build intends to deliver will again, be thwarted. At best using this build you can deny watch towers and creep and a 3rd, which is what reactor hellion expand does anyway. So in theory, this will work extremely well on greedy, mid-lvl zergs who neglect to put down spines until they have 2 saturated bases. But those zergs really do deserved to get killed by anything anyway The 2nd point you made isnt always true. They dont always get speed asap, they can go gasless and drone even harder (Basically abit more greedy). And yes they can get away with it too.
Could you use your SCV scout to determine how much, if any, gas the zerg has mined and determine the correct time to pull-back based on that information?
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I get the idea behind this but honestly i don't feel it's a good build really.
After watching the tutorial video, it basically worked due to zerg miscontrol.
He let his first queen take too much damage before the second one arrived from the main, he missrallied overlords, didn't pull back the ones that were exposes properly, fought with a damaged queen and zerglings off creep etc etc.
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I like the 1-1-1 without addons better, I must admit.
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On March 26 2012 00:00 TimeRunnerS wrote:
I like the 1-1-1 without addons better, I must admit.
Thanks for the positive feedback
Reactor hellion is better in other things tho
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You floated alot of minerals in your marine tank followup-replay
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Hey I just tired this I am mid diamond with low apm and It worked vs a z who hatch first on shattered temple close air spawns. Ty for the in depth build. I found saving my marines was very key to this build. I didnt even get to medivacs and had 900 mins but the game was already won. His defense of queens and lings was not enough and i was able to snipe the spine. I will be using it as my go to build vs z. -Kw
http://imgur.com/Z2TsM
Edit: sp and pic
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On April 04 2012 11:27 knightwulf wrote:Hey I just tired this I am mid diamond with low apm and It worked vs a z who hatch first on shattered temple close air spawns. Ty for the in depth build. I found saving my marines was very key to this build. I didnt even get to medivacs and had 900 mins but the game was already won. His defense of queens and lings was not enough and i was able to snipe the spine. I will be using it as my go to build vs z. -Kw http://imgur.com/Z2TsMEdit: sp and pic
Ty for the picture, made me smile really hard :D
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ST rainbow plays every single TvZ like this for ages.
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On April 04 2012 13:22 sage_francis wrote:
ST rainbow plays every single TvZ like this for ages.
yup, with his standard mech follow up
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I think its not bad opening, but its rely a lot on micro abilities. Its more difficult than it seems. So i wouldnt recommand players below diamond to try this before knowing very well standards openings.
Also, i think u should emphasis more on Rainbows barracks and factory placement.
With this opening u are indeed weaker to early zerg aggresion. Rainbow always makes semi wall off with barracks and factory (allowing only small units to go), which is always completed lately with a CC. This way he can defend early zerg aggression a lot easier, and most of the time without any bunker.
Also, on maps like metalo, i think its way better to start to build a bunker on the top of the ramp in order to see and kill units going down.
Very few terrans open this way because its a lot micro intensive, and u got to keep marine helion scv production, with sometimes not really significant results.
Rainbow always do this because hes very micro focused player like a lot of old old school bw players and because he has this amazing micro ability, he can kill or hurt a lot good zerg players very quiclky without even cheesing.
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Until I took a break a few weeks ago, this was basically my standard play. I opened this way then into a single Medivac and then a cloakless banshee into mech.
The initial push and elevator can do significant damage, the banshee denies a quick third, and the followup push-out on 2 base can often end the game (while I take my third). It's a viable opener so long as your opponent doesn't know it's coming and make lings to handle the elevator itself while queens focus medivacs. Even if they do this, you can kill a LOT of lings and make it worthwhile. Just comes down to execution (like most things).
Rainbow really got me hooked onto this playstyle when I made my push towards learning to play Terran as well as Zerg. It just flows nicely to keep messing with your opponent (and their head, aggression is great to mentally handicap them).
EDIT: If you like elevator after initial pressure instead of faster CC, you can keep 2 SCVs in gas until Starport is started, so that you hit 100 gas as it completes and have the fastest possible minerals.
You can also expand after Rax and Gas/CC on 16 OR Gas before CC on 15 and get a fast expansion into very fast medivac harassment. With bunkers this makes your build very offensively oriented while being safe to play against 2 Base Zerg. You can always scout a roach rush.
2ND EDIT: In response to the post above me, hiding the factory so that the add-on (or lack thereof) cannot be seen is very strong if you deny the initial drone scout. You can even poke out with marines alone and strand the reactive lings with hellions, making your later elevator even stronger.
Rax
14 or so Gas
Fac
CC
Star
Medivac
Tech on Star
Banshee
Is the most streamlined build I've played, using rax for Addons and quickly going for either an armory (fast +1 and all-in with more rax and mass marine/thor/banshee) or more factories to sustain hellion drops and eventual victory.
Saving the medivac is basically what decides if I won the game handily or not. 
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On April 04 2012 14:09 CapnAmerica wrote:Until I took a break a few weeks ago, this was basically my standard play. I opened this way then into a single Medivac and then a cloakless banshee into mech. The initial push and elevator can do significant damage, the banshee denies a quick third, and the followup push-out on 2 base can often end the game (while I take my third). It's a viable opener so long as your opponent doesn't know it's coming and make lings to handle the elevator itself while queens focus medivacs. Even if they do this, you can kill a LOT of lings and make it worthwhile. Just comes down to execution (like most things). Rainbow really got me hooked onto this playstyle when I made my push towards learning to play Terran as well as Zerg. It just flows nicely to keep messing with your opponent (and their head, aggression is great to mentally handicap them). EDIT: If you like elevator after initial pressure instead of faster CC, you can keep 2 SCVs in gas until Starport is started, so that you hit 100 gas as it completes and have the fastest possible minerals. You can also expand after Rax and Gas/CC on 16 OR Gas before CC on 15 and get a fast expansion into very fast medivac harassment. With bunkers this makes your build very offensively oriented while being safe to play against 2 Base Zerg. You can always scout a roach rush. 2ND EDIT: In response to the post above me, hiding the factory so that the add-on (or lack thereof) cannot be seen is very strong if you deny the initial drone scout. You can even poke out with marines alone and strand the reactive lings with hellions, making your later elevator even stronger. Rax 14 or so Gas Fac CC Star Medivac Tech on Star Banshee Is the most streamlined build I've played, using rax for Addons and quickly going for either an armory (fast +1 and all-in with more rax and mass marine/thor/banshee) or more factories to sustain hellion drops and eventual victory. Saving the medivac is basically what decides if I won the game handily or not.
Might i make a suggestion? The timing u attack u do is good. U can also do this with gas first (11 gas, 13 rax) and still support reactor hellions and no cloak banshee off 1 gas. Zergs might not realize it because of the really early timing and banshee hit. Have fun with it
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EPT
