EPT[G] PvT: 2gate FE
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
To the first 2 replies, it's not the same as the Nani build which, IIRC, was more standard whilst this is more Stalker-centric. I 2 Gate myself in PvT (I don't feel safe with the 1 G FE) so I'm looking forward to trying this out. Thanks. Edit/ Any maps you particularly recommend this build on? | ||
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TuckerX
United States16 Posts
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Jotunheimr
United States36 Posts
I wouldn't say its common and its not naniwa's build iirc, but i didn't think it really has a place tho. I use it a lot on ladder for practical reasons in that it never dies against cheese if i'm really unsure (scout gets denied, etc). I think its more or less a build everyone has in the back of their head that they pull out at certain times for a kinda safe yet sorta greedy econ build. 5 gate all inning a terran can be hard too cause it isn't particular hard for the terran to drop a scan in your main if you deny scouting well (happens to me a lot in ladder) so then i have to cancel my all in and expand which sucks too. It has its purpose, it has its flaws | ||
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alexisonfire
Brazil25 Posts
You can (and I think you should) pressure while opening 1gate FE. You get 2 stalkers before warptech and then plus 3 stalkers on a proxy pylon, which is almost the same as the opening you suggest. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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alexisonfire
Brazil25 Posts
Gonna try this build on, as soon as i do, ill tell you my impressions about it! (: | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE 2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all. Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant? | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote: I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game  As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it. That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it! As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away. The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^ | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:12 Sated wrote: If I was the only one having problems with this then I'd probably agree with you. But since I'm not the only one who seems to have problems with 2rax builds when doing a 1gate FE, and since I've personally seen several pro players lose to 2rax builds using a 1gate FE (including Grubby, who has a level of micro I will never achieve), I just don't think it is safe. EDIT: And it certainly isn't safe in my hands. You see pros die to 2rax because they play more greedy in several areas. I.e. Cutting units to get an earlier nexus is very common. Compare the 1gate FE's now to the ones used a year ago, there's a huge difference in how much goes to getting units early on as compared to economy. I've read the thread you linked and that is definitely a build you would have to be confident in your micro to execute. Use MC's 1gate FE, specifically the variant that chrono's out 5 units from the gateway before warpgate every time. The micro should not be very hard using that build | ||
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aznkukuboi
120 Posts
It gets you 4 stalkers, 1 zealot, and 1 sentry to do a pressure attack. You can poke up the ramp at 6 min and see what's going on. If the terran has a bunker and marines, you know it's tech. Back off, drop robom and cb obs. If terran was doing a 2 rax expo. Then you have to guage how well you think this terran can respond and just how many forcefields you can land. If the terran was doing a 3 rax all in. You can probably snipe the tech lab and back off. Just outmacro bc of economy advantage and win. I've flat out won games against a 1 rax expo terran with 2 gates. The terran will bm saying stuff about cheese, but little does he know my nexus is already up and I only have 2 gates. If the terran has bunkers, I transition into a MC 6 gate pressure, but take a 3rd while doing it. Pros of 2 gate expo: Can defend stim timing attacks. Can defend marine scv all in with proper micro and FF. Gets you more units so you can actually put pressure whereas you can't do that in 1 gate expo. Cons: Not really many, just a little less eco than 1 gate expo, but not too much. | ||
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Champ121
United Kingdom6 Posts
On February 29 2012 05:48 Forbidden17 wrote: That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it! As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away. The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^ I agree that its easy enough to win with units chrono'd off of one gate vs a 2 rax, but now terrans have started building 2 bunkers whilst engaging, you cant both win the fight and stop the bunkers building (which the terran then runs his reinforcements into). I've been doing the 2 gate for the past 2 weeks and its much safer, it kills a 2 rax easily with the power to stop those bunkers too, all whilst getting a 27 nexus. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Champ121
United Kingdom6 Posts
When a 2 rax hits, you will have 2 zealots, 3 stalkers and a sentry with enough energy for guardian shield very soon, this will crush him. This build has 1 less probe than MC's 1 gate fe (or the same number if you poking probe gets away) at 6:00 and has identical robo and nexus timings. In my opinion this is safer and just as economic. I will argue that this is stronger than the build in the original post because a) it has a stronger army composition when 2 rax hits (especially with guardian shield by 6:30) b) it has a nexus a whole 30 seconds earlier. c) it has a quicker 3rd gate for later or extended pressure here's the build : 9 pylon 12 gateway 14 gas 16 pylon 17 cyber 19 zealot 21 pylon 22 WG tech + 1 chrono 22 stalker + 1 chrono 24 gateway 25 pylon 25 chrono WG tech 26 probe cut and expand 26 chrono WG tech 27 sentry (from gateway 1) and start probes again 30 zealot (from gateway 2) 31 pylon 2 rax is now coming add a gateway chrono your gates whilst theyre converting then make 2 stalkers and engage If you dont see ~ 6:00 2 rax, make your robo and gas and transition into the mid game, you can still hold the ~ 6:45 2 marauder push easily with this too I will never 1 gate expand against a terran that takes a gas again, there isnt the economic benefit to justify it. note in the replay minor flaws is that i made my 30 probe a little late despite having the resources for it, i was 1 probe behind what i should have been and went 24 pylon 25 gate instead the really early 3rd pylon i put down. | ||
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England4983 Posts
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England4983 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote: I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was: 1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE 2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all. Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant? I disagree with this part. You want an in between vs any gas opening. You're going to be wayyyy better off with a 2 gate 3 stalker rush against any kind of 2 rax opener, and you're going to have an opportunity to pressure against a factory/starport opening. The problem with 3 gate expand vs factory/starport is that its hard to get out your robo in time if you'd also like to pressure their wallin. On top of that, with how much it blunts your economy you're unlikely to be able to get up to 5 gates+1 robo very quickly to help against a 1/1/1 push. With a 2 gate expand against factory/starport, you get the best of both worlds; enough economy to get a lot of production rolling to kill a 1/1/1 push, a fast enough robo to not get owned by cloak, and on top of that enough units to do meaningful pressure at his wall after wg finishes. The only time you would really not want to be in between would be vs any gasless expand, in which case comitting to a big 3 gate attack while expanding behind or 1 gate expanding and staying even would both be way better. But honestly, maybe 10% of terrans at masters even use gasless expands anymore because protosses take a fast 3rd against it and terrans (perhaps rightfully), don't want to have to deal with late game 3 base protoss armies. I started using this build a few days ago. It plays differently than naniwa's old 2 gate just because of the wg research time nerf, so you won't be able to do any pressure vs a 2 rax, but you know without a doubt you will be 100% safe against a 2 rax without having to cut probes or pull any probes to fight. Another really nice thing about it is that it's easy to get your forges up in time against a 2 rax; with 1 gate expo it feels like you have to make some cuts against a 2 rax and end up starting them a little bit later. | ||
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aznkukuboi
120 Posts
He lost hard to TSLPolt's 2 rax. I don't get it. If it was a 1 gate expo, don't you think Polt would run him over even faster? | ||
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Gianttt
Netherlands194 Posts
On March 05 2012 19:37 aznkukuboi wrote: I was watching hwangsin's stream and he did a 2 gate expo. Was basically the exact build. He lost hard to TSLPolt's 2 rax. I don't get it. If it was a 1 gate expo, don't you think Polt would run him over even faster? It's not that you do a build to completely destroy someone. There is always a chance of losing. He probably has won games with the same build against the same build too  | ||
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England4983 Posts
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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England4983 Posts
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England4983 Posts
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Floris
Netherlands13 Posts
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England4983 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
Basically 3 stalker opening, then an extra 2 stalkers. 5 Stalkers are a 'good number' in PvT because one volley kills SCV or a Marine. If you were going to progress with 2gate openings, whether it's something like what I've described or not - you should do it on maps with no ramp at the natural. Similar to the HuK 20food FE, where he pressures with 5 stalkers - it's much harder to abuse stalker range since you can't see up the cliff You would obv have to be active with the 5 stalkers, to pressure the T as much as possible. If it's a 1rax techlab expand, you will fall behind if he is allowed to CC on the low ground. Food for thought | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
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nath
United States1788 Posts
-stalkers suck balls vs concussive early, 2 mara 7 marine will destroy 5 stalker + first warpin of 2 units (probably zlots); especially if he reinforces fast on a 2 player map. -1 gate FE -> 3 gate by time wg finishes will give you more than enough to crush it if you have good micro and are careful, you can definitely delay him pushing out with stalkers, but if concussive hits too many, you've potentially lost the game. so i feel like this is one of those tightrope, double-edged protoss builds, like a timid version of kiwikaki's 2 gate zlot after ffe into 2 stargate; can be powerful but risky. edit: if you do this in reaction to scouting gasless FE, then its a very good build. im talking about solely vs 2 rax | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
On April 28 2012 05:58 nath wrote: i feel like its actually weaker vs 2 rax than a 1gate FE: -stalkers suck balls vs concussive early, 2 mara 7 marine will destroy 5 stalker + first warpin of 2 units (probably zlots); especially if he reinforces fast on a 2 player map. -1 gate FE -> 3 gate by time wg finishes will give you more than enough to crush it if you have good micro and are careful, you can definitely delay him pushing out with stalkers, but if concussive hits too many, you've potentially lost the game. so i feel like this is one of those tightrope, double-edged protoss builds, like a timid version of kiwikaki's 2 gate zlot after ffe into 2 stargate; can be powerful but risky. edit: if you do this in reaction to scouting gasless FE, then its a very good build. im talking about solely vs 2 rax The reason you would 3 stalker rush or whatever with 2 gates is so that you can go do extremely early harassment on the terrans initial units. You will be doing damage before any and all upgrades that they get, and might even be before more than 1 marauder comes out. You can micro the stalkers on the terrans ramp so that you dont lose them, and then kill the marines, if not just damage all of them. Depending on their reaction, they might freak out and make a bunker or 2, or pull scv's to repair their depots. I find that this works pretty well if you make a zealot out of your first gateway, and then follow up with 3 stalkers. Usually you can only get this to work if you save chrono for your gateways. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
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England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On April 28 2012 07:54 Wingblade wrote: The problem that many have pointed out is that it is simply an in-between build, and not necessary because a properly executed 1 gate FE build can hold a 2 rax, and yet be more economical than this. Very true, but if someone is uncomfortable vs 2rax this build might be a start in getting better against it. Once you can hold with this while taking next to no damage, move on to doing the same with 1gate fe. | ||
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England4983 Posts
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belatube
United States27 Posts
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England4983 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
Replay of me doing it: http://drop.sc/178383 VOD of LiquidNonY himself (stole the build from him, yeah im a fanboy) vs DeMusliM: (starts around 10.00) | ||
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