• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
TeamLiquid Liquipedia LiquidDota LiquidLegends
EDT 23:10
CEST 05:10
KST 12:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Shopify TSL 733WTL 2021 Summer - Week 3 Recap and Week 4 Preview11Code S RO16 Preview: Trap, Armani, sOs, Zest5Code S RO16 Preview: Rogue, Zoun, INnoVation, Dark11[ASL11] Ro24 Preview Pt 3:Contenders and Streamers10
Community News
FlaSh going to army in 3 weeks46ESL Open Week #66: Stats, Clem, Solar win6Code S RO16: Rogue and INno advance to the RO89ByuN to begin wrist treatment12New Worlds Map Contest: ALL SUBMISSIONS56
StarCraft 2
General
Pros/ Former pros that offer coaching? Shopify TSL 7 WTL 2021 Summer - Week 3 Recap and Week 4 Preview [GSL] Music List Code S RO16: Rogue and INno advance to the RO8
Tourneys
The Siege Perilous - $5,000 in top-end hardware! [WTL 2021] Summer - Week 4 Genesis Legends Inv #6 Apr 16/18th 7PM CET [GSL 2021] Code S - Group D Team GP Cup
Strategy
How to Defeat Protoss - Part 1: Powering Simple Questions Simple Answers Practice Partner Thread Season 1 - 2018 How to Break the F2 Hotkey Addiction
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Routavaara [M] (2) Tropical Sacrifice [M] (4)Nautilus [UMS] Micro Match
External Content
The StarCraft Observer Podcast Episode #5 The Pylon Show Mutation # 260 Fright night Mutation # 259 Breath Of Destruction
Brood War
General
Ladder statistics race distribution (2021?) ShieldBattery: Relaunched [ShowMatch] Foreign All-Star vs Korean Gamer FlaSh additional info on Army+arm situation FlaSh going to army in 3 weeks
Tourneys
BSL 2v2 Showmatch - MadiNho/KenZy vs Scan/BishOp Reps.Ru Victory Day present New Worlds Map Contest: ALL SUBMISSIONS BSL12 - Russia Puts in Money
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fog of War Noises Sorry's TvP lategame Ghost strategies? pvz FE, goons opening
Other Games
Heroes of the Storm
HotS: WP and Funny Moments [HotS] CCL Season 2: ONYX [HotS] The Road to Paris QQ/Rage Thread. Simple Questions, Simple Answers
General Games
Path of Exile Genshin Impact - Coop RPG Cyberpunk 2077 Diablo 2 thread Final Fantasy XIV
TL Mafia
[M][N] Mafia Mafia: Mafia Edition Active List of Mafia Games 2.0 TL Mafia Community Thread Active List of Mafia Games [M][T] Poker Mafia
Hearthstone
Is Hearthstone Gambling?
LoL General
LoL Tournaments
LoL Strategy
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Coronavirus and You NASA and the Private Sector Trading/Investing Thread Men go body sculpting
Fan Clubs
The Scarlett Fan Club The One And Only Incredible Acer.Bly Fan Club! The TY Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [TV] HBO Game of Thrones Hip Hop / Rap Music Discussion Movie Discussion!
Sports
2020 - 2021 Football Thread NBA General Discussion 2020 NFL and College Football Corona Season Formula1 2019 TL Golf Thread
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers Help! i need a low profile keyboard!!!
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts Ask TL Staff Anything
Blogs
The StarCraft O…
TheStarCraftObserver
Magic the Gathering Cu…
TheRealNanMan
Whale Watching at Hervey Bay i…
Tak3r
To Be a Vtuber
Zambrah
Help me win a vacation by watc…
Chosi
Golf Battle Report (Persona…
FlaShFTW
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 763 users

[G] PvT: 2gate FE

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4982 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-08 21:48:31
February 26 2012 21:48 GMT
#1
Introduction

On February 20 2012 19:19 Sated wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I was watching the EU Playhem cast that night and I saw (P)Honor doing a strange 2gate expansion in his PvT games against (T)Satiini. He essentially did the 3 Stalker Rush commonly seen in PvP, using one Chronoboost on his Warpgate Research and then one Chonoboost on the 2nd and 3rd Stalkers. He'd then get two more Stalkers from his Gateways whilst boosting out Warpgate Research, using his 5 Stalker force to pressure/scout the Terran whilst taking an expansion and placing down a Robotics Facility. The expansion and Robotics Facility were put down at the same time Warpgate Research finished. After this, he tech'd quickly to Colossus whilst staying on just 2 Gateways and saturating his expansion.

I tried it out once this morning in a custom game against a Platinum Terran and it felt really solid. In this case the Terran went for a 3 Rax stim-timing and expanded behind it, which put him massively behind when his pressure did absolutely no damage, but I feel like you'd be able to hold 2 Rax reactor/tech-lab pressure just as easily. I didn't feel comfortable getting Colossus as quickly as Honor did - I got 2 Sentries as my 6th/7th units and I got a couple of Immortals from the Robotics Facility before throwing down my Colossus Den - but I did feel incredibly safe in the face of a relatively strong timing-attack from my opponent. The game ended with a 14 minute 3 Colossus push that I made to secure my third (late third, I know, but the game was on Xel'Naga Caverns!) and even through the Terran had an upgrade advantage, they weren't able to get out enough Vikings to prevent my Colossus melting their ground force.

Anyway, it's all well and good me using this against a Terran in a lower league than me who was doing an inefficient build (a 3rax stim-timing followed by an expansion isn't exactly the smoothest build), but in Honor's games he was going up against a very good Terran who was doing gasless expansions, which meant that Honor's expansion was quite a bit behind. To make up for this, he used his initial Stalkers to pick at Satiini's bunkers and to force his SCVs off the mineral line to repair. He then picked away at the repairing SCVs, clawing back some of the Terran's advantage. This pressure, aside from killing workers and preventing mining, also meant that Satiini was pinned back in his main until he could get Stim, which is what I think gave Honor the time to rush out his tech. I was quite impressed with the build, even if Honor did eventually lose the series 2-1.

Has anyone seen other players using this style or tried it out themselves? It isn't the same as the 2 Gate pressure (P)ChiTa popularised ( http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Gateway_Pressure_into_Expansion ) because you skip the Zealot and rush to 5 Stalkers, but the timing of the expansion is quite similar and you end up with a similarly-sized force to pressure with (even though you get Warpgates slower).

I made the above post in the Protoss Help Me Thread, but not too many people seemed interested. Either no one else had seen these games or no one else thought there was any merit in this build. However, I saw the potential for this build to give me a way of throwing down a quick expansion whilst being incredibly safe against the Barracks-pressure builds that I have a lot of trouble against when going for a 1 Gate FE.

Build Orders

Double Gas Opening

This opening gets two Assimilators before expanding, meaning that you'll be stockpiling a lot of gas by the time your expansion becomes operational. This will allow you to tech-up very quickly in the mid-game, but relies heavily on Forcefield micro to deflect early aggression. A very similar opening was used by (P)Oz to quickly tech-up to High Templar and Chargelots before taking a third base, but fast Colossi are also a possible option.
  • 9 Pylon (Chrono Probes 3 Times)
  • 13 Gateway
  • 15 Assimilator
  • 16 Pylon
  • 18 Cybernetics Core
  • 19 Assimilator (2)
  • 20 Gateway (2)
  • @100% Cybernetics Core: Warpgate Research (Chrono Until Complete), Stalker.
  • 24 Pylon
  • @100% Gateway (2): Sentry x2
  • Cut Probes At 24 Probes
  • Important: Poke Up Terran Ramp With Scouting Probe
  • @400 Minerals: Nexus
  • @200 Minerals, 100 Gas: Robotics Facility
  • @100 Minerals: Pylon
  • Resume Probe Production
  • @100 Minerals: Pylon
  • Transform Warpgates
  • @100 Minerals, 200 Gas: Sentry x2
Single Gas Opening

This opening is safer against gas-openings from the Terran as you will have a stronger army out on the field if the Terran attempts Barracks-based aggression (less Sentries, more Zealot/Stalker). However, opening this way will slow down your gas harvesting, which means that you won't be able to tech-up as quickly in the mid-game.
  • 9 Pylon (Chrono Probes 3 Times)
  • 13 Gateway
  • 15 Assimilator
  • 16 Pylon
  • 18 Cyber
  • 20 Gateway (2)
  • @100% Cyber: Warpgate Research (Dump Chrono Into This Until Finished), Stalker.
  • 24 Pylon
  • @100% Gate (2): Stalker x2
  • Cut Probes At 24 Probes
  • Important: Poke Up The Ramp With Your Scouting Probe
  • @400 Minerals: Nexus
  • @200 Minerals, 100 Gas: Robotics Facility
  • @100 Minerals: Pylon
  • @75 Minerals: Assimilator (2)
  • Resume Probe Production
  • @100 Minerals: Pylon
  • Transform Warpgates
  • @150 Minerals, 100 Gas: Zealot, Sentry
Notes
  • I usually Pylon scout in this match-up. If you'd rather Gateway scout then you're free to do so, but I think that knowing whether or not the Terran has gas is the most important information you can have in this match-up and a Pylon scout is the best way to achieve that.
  • The scouting poke after placing down your Nexus is really important because it comes at a time when the Terran should have already decided their tech-route (or expanded in the case of a gasless expand). If they're still on one-base then the only thing you're looking for are signs that Marauders are being built; you need to rule out the possibility of Cloaked Banshees as quickly as possible because it lets you cut corners. Until you know for sure that they're not going for Cloaked Banshees you have to make sure you get ready for them by 7:30. This means that you need to Chronoboost out two Observers; the first is a scouting Observer and the second Observer is for protecting your Probes.
  • If you suspect that the opponent is going for early bio pressure (they hadn't expanded when you poked with your Probe), it is possible to build two additional units between building your 2nd/3rd units and your Nexus. In the two gas style these units will be Sentries and in the single gas style these units will be Zealots. This will offer you additional safety against any aggressive style the Terran opponent can throw at you, and is especially effective against 2 Rax Reactor/Tech-Lab pressure, but it will also slow your economy down by delaying your Nexus and prolonging the cut in Probe production.
  • If the opponent is going 2 Rax Reactor/Tech-Lab then they'll be out on the map around the time your Warpgates finish. Since you should be holding Xel'Naga Towers with your scouting Probe, you should see them coming across the map. As long as you know the push is coming and prepare/micro your units correctly, you'll be able to crush their push. Just make sure you pull Probes to defend if they pulled SCVs and make sure you use your Forcefields efficiently. There's no rush to counter-attack since crushing their push will leave you pretty far ahead.
Replays

Single-Gas Opening

Immortal Mid-Game:

http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Sated_vs_(T)LeAderOnE/18275
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)Scrutom_vs_(P)Sated/18457

6 Gate All-In:

http://drop.sc/148408
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Sated_vs_(T)gilgamesh/18638
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Sated_vs_(T)Ielmoere/18674

Defending Factory All-Ins:

http://drop.sc/161589
http://drop.sc/148409
http://drop.sc/148411

Double Gas Opening

Fast Colossi:

http://drop.sc/168451

Fast Templar:

http://drop.sc/170684

Pro-Level VODs

2012 GSL Season 2, Ro16, Group D, (P)Oz vs. (T)Maru:

http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67124/?set=15&lang=

Conclusion

This is a really safe opening that sits somewhere between a standard 1 Gate FE and the safer 2 Gate Fast Obs opening. It is designed to defend against any early bio-pressure that the Terran can throw at you, especially 2 Rax Reactor/Tech-Lab builds. Players who are comfortable using a 1 Gate FE to defend against such strategies should probably continue to do so as this build will offer them no advantages, but players who don't feel comfortable against bio-pressure when using a 1 Gate FE might want to consider the use of this opening instead.
EU High Masters Protoss ~ Grubby: "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse, but that I feel confident in, than play the better strategy, not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" ~ Sad Zealot Fan </3
Corsica
Profile Joined February 2011
Ukraine1852 Posts
February 26 2012 22:01 GMT
#2
Wait, isnt it Build NaNi used long time ago? He get 2 gate, and put aearly pressure, I remember someone saying (Strikes as 4 gate , expands as 3 gate), when WG finishes you get +2 units ( or + 4 if you CB) and exp, is this it?
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland3797 Posts
February 26 2012 23:16 GMT
#3
Yea 6 month old opening from nani
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
February 26 2012 23:28 GMT
#4
I usually 1gate FFE with Zealot->Stalker->Stalker, but I used to do 3-5 stalker pressure early off 2 gates and it's definitely a viable alternative. Thanks for the order and work you put into this Sated, I especially like the all-in transitions you've listed.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Trusty
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand520 Posts
February 26 2012 23:36 GMT
#5
Although it's a similar concept to the 2gate nani build, the build itself is entirely different. Different units at different times.
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5443 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-27 00:24:16
February 27 2012 00:04 GMT
#6
Nice to see you posting it up formally, Sated.

To the first 2 replies, it's not the same as the Nani build which, IIRC, was more standard whilst this is more Stalker-centric.

I 2 Gate myself in PvT (I don't feel safe with the 1 G FE) so I'm looking forward to trying this out. Thanks.

Edit/ Any maps you particularly recommend this build on?
KT best KT ~ 2014
TuckerX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States16 Posts
February 27 2012 02:33 GMT
#7
I do believe Cecil and Alejandrisha had very well-written guides in the Strategy forum that detailed this opening based on naniwa's build. I don't really think this is anything strange or new, unfortunately
EG Fighting! - [url]
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1114 Posts
February 27 2012 02:42 GMT
#8
I've been doing this basically, but with only 3 stalkers. They are basically there to scout for an expo and force bunkers while I expand. I'm not entirely sure what the 2 zealots are for. I like to wait for CB to finish before I get my 2 zealots, and I only get them if I see a marauder push coming. It's not like the zealots are going to make your poke any better if they FE'd? huh.
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4982 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-27 10:13:18
February 27 2012 10:11 GMT
#9
On February 27 2012 07:01 Corsica wrote:
Wait, isnt it Build NaNi used long time ago? He get 2 gate, and put aearly pressure, I remember someone saying (Strikes as 4 gate , expands as 3 gate), when WG finishes you get +2 units ( or + 4 if you CB) and exp, is this it?

On February 27 2012 08:16 zezamer wrote:
Yea 6 month old opening from nani

NaNi's build relied on a Warpgate timing attack that I don't think has been viable since the Warpgate Resarch nerf. If I'm remembering correctly, NaNi's build was quite similar to ChiTa's 2gate Pressure opening: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2_Gateway_Pressure_into_Expansion

The builds are pretty similar in their aims (more units earlier, still getting an expansion quickly), but the order in which you get things is different. You also get an earlier Robotics Facility with this build, making you safer against Cloaked Banshees and such.

On February 27 2012 08:28 TangSC wrote:
I usually 1gate FFE with Zealot->Stalker->Stalker, but I used to do 3-5 stalker pressure early off 2 gates and it's definitely a viable alternative. Thanks for the order and work you put into this Sated, I especially like the all-in transitions you've listed.

Why am I not surprised that you like the all-in? But yeah, the 5gate is a nice thing to have in the locker because it's definitely strong against someone who is trying to be greedy.

On February 27 2012 11:42 GoldenH wrote:
I've been doing this basically, but with only 3 stalkers. They are basically there to scout for an expo and force bunkers while I expand. I'm not entirely sure what the 2 zealots are for. I like to wait for CB to finish before I get my 2 zealots, and I only get them if I see a marauder push coming. It's not like the zealots are going to make your poke any better if they FE'd? huh.

You like to wait for CB to finish? I don't Chronoboost the Zealots. Unless you mean that you wait for Warpgate Research to finish? If you do that then the Gateways are idle until Warpgate Research finishes and I'd rather have them building something.

I should mention that it's entirely possible to swap the order of those Zealots and the Nexus if you think you're safe!

On February 27 2012 09:04 aZealot wrote:
Nice to see you posting it up formally, Sated.

To the first 2 replies, it's not the same as the Nani build which, IIRC, was more standard whilst this is more Stalker-centric.

I 2 Gate myself in PvT (I don't feel safe with the 1 G FE) so I'm looking forward to trying this out. Thanks.

Edit/ Any maps you particularly recommend this build on?

Thanks!

I'd say you should use it on any map where you don't feel comfortable holding early Barracks-pressure, but in a general sense I think it's best on smaller maps and especially on maps that only have 2 spawn locations. It's not something you're going to want to do on large maps like Tal'Darim Altar because you have much more time on those maps to prepare for early pressure and can therefore hold a 1gate FE or Nexus first much easier.
EU High Masters Protoss ~ Grubby: "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse, but that I feel confident in, than play the better strategy, not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" ~ Sad Zealot Fan </3
Jotunheimr
Profile Joined January 2012
United States36 Posts
February 28 2012 05:31 GMT
#10
looks like your average 3 stalker rush expand to me
I wouldn't say its common and its not naniwa's build iirc, but i didn't think it really has a place tho.
I use it a lot on ladder for practical reasons in that it never dies against cheese if i'm really unsure (scout gets denied, etc). I think its more or less a build everyone has in the back of their head that they pull out at certain times for a kinda safe yet sorta greedy econ build. 5 gate all inning a terran can be hard too cause it isn't particular hard for the terran to drop a scan in your main if you deny scouting well (happens to me a lot in ladder) so then i have to cancel my all in and expand which sucks too. It has its purpose, it has its flaws
"誰かが世界はもう終わりだと言ってました。でも私この世界が好きです。この街が好きです。ここにいるみんなが大好きです。あきらめるなんて出来ません。”~Kanata Sorami
alexisonfire
Profile Joined June 2011
Brazil24 Posts
February 28 2012 05:39 GMT
#11
This is almost the same as 1gate FE. A little safer IMO, but still almost the same.
You can (and I think you should) pressure while opening 1gate FE. You get 2 stalkers before warptech and then plus 3 stalkers on a proxy pylon, which is almost the same as the opening you suggest.
get fighted!
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4982 Posts
February 28 2012 08:38 GMT
#12
On February 28 2012 14:31 Jotunheimr wrote:
looks like your average 3 stalker rush expand to me
I wouldn't say its common and its not naniwa's build iirc, but i didn't think it really has a place tho.
I use it a lot on ladder for practical reasons in that it never dies against cheese if i'm really unsure (scout gets denied, etc). I think its more or less a build everyone has in the back of their head that they pull out at certain times for a kinda safe yet sorta greedy econ build. 5 gate all inning a terran can be hard too cause it isn't particular hard for the terran to drop a scan in your main if you deny scouting well (happens to me a lot in ladder) so then i have to cancel my all in and expand which sucks too. It has its purpose, it has its flaws

Yes, this is just a 3 Stalker Rush, but I've never seen a guide on using this build in PvT so I thought I'd write one. If this was something that was ultra-common then I don't think the casters (and I) would've been so surprised when (P)Honor was using it (albeit a version that gets an earlier second gas). I also think that detailing a possible follow-up helps people who are learning, because I've seen lots of lower-level players who are capable of doing an opening build flawlessly but then don't seem to know what they're doing afterwards!

The 5gate is strong because you have more than enough economy to support it with 24 Probes and because you can deny any scouting of your natural with your Stalkers. Scans are always an issue so it's definitely not a fool-proof punishment against gasless expand builds.

On February 28 2012 14:39 alexisonfire wrote:
This is almost the same as 1gate FE. A little safer IMO, but still almost the same.
You can (and I think you should) pressure while opening 1gate FE. You get 2 stalkers before warptech and then plus 3 stalkers on a proxy pylon, which is almost the same as the opening you suggest.

That's the idea, that it's a safer version of a 1gate FE. I don't feel safe doing a 1gate FE of any variety, but if you do feel safe doing a 1gate FE then you should keep on doing it.
EU High Masters Protoss ~ Grubby: "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse, but that I feel confident in, than play the better strategy, not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" ~ Sad Zealot Fan </3
alexisonfire
Profile Joined June 2011
Brazil24 Posts
February 28 2012 19:20 GMT
#13
Besides 3rax stim pushes, i've never had trouble with early terran pushes, even when i do 1gate FE. Maybe its a server difference (since you're EU and im NA, still we're both dias).

Gonna try this build on, as soon as i do, ill tell you my impressions about it! (:
get fighted!
Forbidden17
Profile Joined December 2011
665 Posts
February 28 2012 19:37 GMT
#14
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:

1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE

It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.

Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4982 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 20:27:35
February 28 2012 20:21 GMT
#15
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:

1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE

It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.

Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?

I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game

As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.

EDIT:
On February 29 2012 04:20 alexisonfire wrote:
Besides 3rax stim pushes, i've never had trouble with early terran pushes, even when i do 1gate FE. Maybe its a server difference (since you're EU and im NA, still we're both dias).

Gonna try this build on, as soon as i do, ill tell you my impressions about it! (:

I only have problems with 3rax Stim if I either:

a) Mess up my macro.
b) They pull all their SCVs BitByBit-style.

The second one is much harder to do anything about >.<; Fortunately, it is rare that anyone does it, and on most maps you can easily Forcefield off your natural and be incredibly safe against such things. Just... Metalopolis... T_T
EU High Masters Protoss ~ Grubby: "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse, but that I feel confident in, than play the better strategy, not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" ~ Sad Zealot Fan </3
Forbidden17
Profile Joined December 2011
665 Posts
February 28 2012 20:48 GMT
#16
On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:

1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE

It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.

Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?

I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game

As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.

That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it!

As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away.

The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^
Sated
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
England4982 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-28 23:14:33
February 28 2012 23:12 GMT
#17
On February 29 2012 05:48 Forbidden17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote:
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:

1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE

It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.

Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?

I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game

As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.

That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it!

As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away.

The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^

If I was the only one having problems with this then I'd probably agree with you. But since I'm not the only one who seems to have problems with 2rax builds when doing a 1gate FE, and since I've personally seen several pro players lose to 2rax builds using a 1gate FE (including Grubby, who has a level of micro I will never achieve), I just don't think it is safe.

EDIT:

And it certainly isn't safe in my hands.
EU High Masters Protoss ~ Grubby: "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse, but that I feel confident in, than play the better strategy, not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" ~ Sad Zealot Fan </3
Forbidden17
Profile Joined December 2011
665 Posts
February 29 2012 05:16 GMT
#18
On February 29 2012 08:12 Sated wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 29 2012 05:48 Forbidden17 wrote:
On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote:
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:

1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE

It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.

Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?

I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game

As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.

That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it!

As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away.

The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^

If I was the only one having problems with this then I'd probably agree with you. But since I'm not the only one who seems to have problems with 2rax builds when doing a 1gate FE, and since I've personally seen several pro players lose to 2rax builds using a 1gate FE (including Grubby, who has a level of micro I will never achieve), I just don't think it is safe.

EDIT:

And it certainly isn't safe in my hands.

You see pros die to 2rax because they play more greedy in several areas. I.e. Cutting units to get an earlier nexus is very common. Compare the 1gate FE's now to the ones used a year ago, there's a huge difference in how much goes to getting units early on as compared to economy.

I've read the thread you linked and that is definitely a build you would have to be confident in your micro to execute. Use MC's 1gate FE, specifically the variant that chrono's out 5 units from the gateway before warpgate every time. The micro should not be very hard using that build
aznkukuboi
Profile Joined December 2010
119 Posts
February 29 2012 07:25 GMT
#19
I've been doing the chitaprime 2 gate expo build almost exclusively every PvT. A 2 gate expo drops the expo at about 5:10 (or earlier if you drop before the stalker), which is not too far off the 1 gate expo.

It gets you 4 stalkers, 1 zealot, and 1 sentry to do a pressure attack. You can poke up the ramp at 6 min and see what's going on.

If the terran has a bunker and marines, you know it's tech. Back off, drop robom and cb obs.

If terran was doing a 2 rax expo. Then you have to guage how well you think this terran can respond and just how many forcefields you can land.

If the terran was doing a 3 rax all in. You can probably snipe the tech lab and back off. Just outmacro bc of economy advantage and win.

I've flat out won games against a 1 rax expo terran with 2 gates. The terran will bm saying stuff about cheese, but little does he know my nexus is already up and I only have 2 gates. If the terran has bunkers, I transition into a MC 6 gate pressure, but take a 3rd while doing it.

Pros of 2 gate expo: Can defend stim timing attacks. Can defend marine scv all in with proper micro and FF. Gets you more units so you can actually put pressure whereas you can't do that in 1 gate expo.

Cons: Not really many, just a little less eco than 1 gate expo, but not too much.
Champ121
Profile Joined February 2012
United Kingdom6 Posts
February 29 2012 07:40 GMT
#20
On February 29 2012 05:48 Forbidden17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 29 2012 05:21 Sated wrote:
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote:
I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was:

1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE
2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE

It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all.

Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant?

I've never felt safe with any variant of the 1gate FE against Barracks-pressure, so I guess you could say that this is my safe "variant". It's no use having an economic advantage if you're just going to flat-out die when Terran does certain Barracks-pressures. You could argue that I should just get better at micro'ing my units, but I doubt I have the potential to get much better than I currently am: I'm incredibly surprised that I've even made it to Diamond considering how trash I am at this game

As for the 3gate expand, I was messing around with that build a lot before seeing this build being performed because I liked the idea of being aggressive whilst expanding. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the 3gate pressure hits too late now that Warpgates have been nerfed, so it's rare that you do any damage. Still, I wouldn't say that this is between a 3gate and a 1gate because a 3gate gets tech much slower. IMO this is actually somewhere in between 1gate FE and 2gate Fast Obs, which is exactly why I like it.

That's perfectly fine, everyone is free to play the style the are comfortable with. If it works well for you keep doing it!

As a last attempt to convince you though, I 1gate FE or nexus first in my PvTs and honestly the micro is nothing... It has more to do with your mechanics to execute the build cleanly, and just having units at a specific time. Honestly I could comment about how you have to focus fire marauders, kite marines, pull back weak units, judge when you need to pull probes, etc... but honestly 95% of the time if you hit your timings correctly and you didn't play greedy as hell, the micro is as intensive as a-clicking and watching him run away.

The micro is not hard! =] and executing the build order down to the exact second isn't hard either!! It just takes some practice ^^


I agree that its easy enough to win with units chrono'd off of one gate vs a 2 rax, but now terrans have started building 2 bunkers whilst engaging, you cant both win the fight and stop the bunkers building (which the terran then runs his reinforcements into).

I've been doing the 2 gate for the past 2 weeks and its much safer, it kills a 2 rax easily with the power to stop those bunkers too, all whilst getting a 27 nexus.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
02:00
PSL S2 Ro16 Group C
KarlJayG
LiquipediaDiscussion
OSC
00:00
Sentimiento Latino #107
CosmosSc2 170
CranKy Ducklings38
lex_GrizzlyTO 13
LiquipediaDiscussion
Foul Play NA Showmatch
00:00
Hawk vs gypsy
LiquipediaDiscussion
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
23:30
FSL s3 playoffs day 4
Freeedom3
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JimRising 1003
WinterStarcraft814
ViBE525
PiGStarcraft508
RuFF_SC2 292
Forgg! 190
CosmosSc2 170
Nina 64
PiLiPiLi 63
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3434
Pusan 460
ggaemo 153
Iris 138
KwarK 118
HiyA 82
yabsab 27
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
semphis_68
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox2480
C9.Mang01811
AZ_Axe79
Other Games
summit1g63486
shahzam6243
Mew2King399
HugS8695
PvP25
Temp011
Organizations
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
ESL CS:GO3021
Other Games
gamesdonequick1516
BasetradeTV269
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv198
StarCraft: Brood War
StarCastTV_EN59
StarCraft 2
OGamingTV SC2 36
Blizzard YouTube
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• SkrOs 86
• -StrifeX- 14
• practicex 14
• CaptCanuck3513
• D4rkn0ob1k 13
• LaughNgamez Trovo
• AlphaB_SC2
• Migwel
• Matiz_pl
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Gussbus
• gravity620
• intothetv
• aXEnki
• AweesomeSauce
• Alpha X_
• Genesis Gaming
StarCraft: Brood War
• sscaitournament2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
Other Games
• TSM TheOddOne592
Upcoming Events
Grand Platypus Open
4h 50m
maraleague
5h 50m
CreightonOlsen Tournament
12h 50m
BSL 2v2 Tournament
12h 50m
BW Jeez Weekly
13h 50m
Alpha X Junior Champion…
13h 50m
Theleo-ua Showmatch Ser…
15h 50m
eOnzErG vs Casper
Best of the Best Tour
17h 50m
Cross vs OyAji
DragOn vs TerrOr
Cross vs trutaCz
OSC
19h 50m
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
22h 50m
[ Show More ]
Alpha Pro Series
22h 50m
Future vs ArT
TriGGeR vs Erik
EPT Open Cups
23h 50m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 6h
BeAsT Cup
1d 8h
Alpha X Event
1d 8h
Starkiller vs Mamba
Asuna vs TBD
CreightonOlsen Tournament
1d 12h
WardiTV Spring Champion…
1d 12h
BSL: Ladder Tournament
1d 12h
Genesis Legends Cup
1d 13h
Online Event
1d 22h
SpeCial vs Astrea
GSL Code S
2 days
Bunny vs Dream
Rogue vs Zest
IntoTheAlphaX Pro Circuit
2 days
ByuN vs Zest
DongRaeGu vs Zoun
EPT Open Cups
2 days
EPT Open Cups
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
OlimoLeague
3 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
3 days
ByuN vs Solar
ByuN vs Trap
ByuN vs Zest
Zoun vs Cure
Zoun vs DongRaeGu
Trap vs Zest
Solar vs Zest
Solar vs Trap
KCM Race Survival
4 days
Team GP event
4 days
KeeN vs Percival
CreightonOlsen Tournament
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Hurricane vs Maru
INnoVation vs Trap
KCM Ladies Race Survival
5 days
IntoTheAlphaX Pro Circuit
5 days
Bunny vs Armani
Solar vs Creator
WardiTV Spring Champion…
5 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
5 days
OSC
5 days
Online Event
6 days
CreightonOlsen Tournament
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Ultimate Battle: Soma vs JyJ
2021 GSL S1: Code A
JMcGPlays ARAM Tournament
ESL Pro League Season 13

Ongoing

Foreign All-Star vs Korean Gamer
ASL Season 11
Bombastic StarLeague 12
Russian Hasu League 2021
Best of the Best Tour
KCM Race Survival 2021 Season 1
Deathfate Pro League 1
theleo_ua showmatch 2
BW Jeez Weekly 107
WTL 2021 Summer
2021 GSL S1: Code S
WardiTV Spring Championship 2021
Masters Clash Champ. 2021
Nexus Forces Tour.
NGS Storm Division S2
Spring Sweet Spring #1
BLAST Premier Spring Showd.
ESEA S36 - NA Premier
ESEA S36 - EU Premier
ESEA S36 - AU Premier

Upcoming

BW Jeez Weekly 110
BSL12 HasuLeague
BSL12 GosuLeague
theleo_ua showmatch 3
BW Jeez Weekly 109
BW Jeez Weekly 108
CasterMuse Narak StarLeague Season 4
DH Masters Summer: Finals
TSL 7
NeXT 2021 S1–SC2 Masters
2021 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 2
DHM Summer: China
DHM Summer: NA
DHM Summer: Oceania
DHM Summer: Asia
DHM Summer: LatAm
DHM Summer: Europe
Community Clash League S2
CCL Season 2 Icebreaker
ESL One Cologne 2021
BLAST Premier Spring Finals
IEM Summer 2021
cs_summit 8
Flashpoint Season 3
DH Masters Spring 2021
CBCS Elite League S1
Perfect World League S1
Funspark ULTI 2020
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2021 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.