EPT[G] PvT: 2gate FE - Page 2
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England4983 Posts
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Champ121
United Kingdom6 Posts
When a 2 rax hits, you will have 2 zealots, 3 stalkers and a sentry with enough energy for guardian shield very soon, this will crush him. This build has 1 less probe than MC's 1 gate fe (or the same number if you poking probe gets away) at 6:00 and has identical robo and nexus timings. In my opinion this is safer and just as economic. I will argue that this is stronger than the build in the original post because a) it has a stronger army composition when 2 rax hits (especially with guardian shield by 6:30) b) it has a nexus a whole 30 seconds earlier. c) it has a quicker 3rd gate for later or extended pressure here's the build : 9 pylon 12 gateway 14 gas 16 pylon 17 cyber 19 zealot 21 pylon 22 WG tech + 1 chrono 22 stalker + 1 chrono 24 gateway 25 pylon 25 chrono WG tech 26 probe cut and expand 26 chrono WG tech 27 sentry (from gateway 1) and start probes again 30 zealot (from gateway 2) 31 pylon 2 rax is now coming add a gateway chrono your gates whilst theyre converting then make 2 stalkers and engage If you dont see ~ 6:00 2 rax, make your robo and gas and transition into the mid game, you can still hold the ~ 6:45 2 marauder push easily with this too I will never 1 gate expand against a terran that takes a gas again, there isnt the economic benefit to justify it. note in the replay minor flaws is that i made my 30 probe a little late despite having the resources for it, i was 1 probe behind what i should have been and went 24 pylon 25 gate instead the really early 3rd pylon i put down. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On February 29 2012 04:37 Forbidden17 wrote: I think the viability of 2gate FE has been discussed a lot in the past, I looked into it a fair bit myself and the general consensus every time was: 1. Not aggressive enough to do sufficient damage to justify the opening as compared to say, a 3gate FE 2. Not as economical as a 1gate FE It was a weird in between of a 1 and 3 gate FE and it was hard to find situations where you'd want an in between. It just seemed like an aggressive opening that wasn't very aggressive at all. Now comparing it the other way, as in opening 2gate FE with the intention of staying passive is counter productive since it is clearly less economical than a 1gate FE (massive probe cut plus significantly later nexus), and 1gate FE holds all sorts of aggression already. The only reason pros get screwed by early aggression is because they get very greedy in their 1gate FE variants. If you aren't comfortable dealing with early aggression, just use a safe variant? I disagree with this part. You want an in between vs any gas opening. You're going to be wayyyy better off with a 2 gate 3 stalker rush against any kind of 2 rax opener, and you're going to have an opportunity to pressure against a factory/starport opening. The problem with 3 gate expand vs factory/starport is that its hard to get out your robo in time if you'd also like to pressure their wallin. On top of that, with how much it blunts your economy you're unlikely to be able to get up to 5 gates+1 robo very quickly to help against a 1/1/1 push. With a 2 gate expand against factory/starport, you get the best of both worlds; enough economy to get a lot of production rolling to kill a 1/1/1 push, a fast enough robo to not get owned by cloak, and on top of that enough units to do meaningful pressure at his wall after wg finishes. The only time you would really not want to be in between would be vs any gasless expand, in which case comitting to a big 3 gate attack while expanding behind or 1 gate expanding and staying even would both be way better. But honestly, maybe 10% of terrans at masters even use gasless expands anymore because protosses take a fast 3rd against it and terrans (perhaps rightfully), don't want to have to deal with late game 3 base protoss armies. I started using this build a few days ago. It plays differently than naniwa's old 2 gate just because of the wg research time nerf, so you won't be able to do any pressure vs a 2 rax, but you know without a doubt you will be 100% safe against a 2 rax without having to cut probes or pull any probes to fight. Another really nice thing about it is that it's easy to get your forges up in time against a 2 rax; with 1 gate expo it feels like you have to make some cuts against a 2 rax and end up starting them a little bit later. | ||
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aznkukuboi
120 Posts
He lost hard to TSLPolt's 2 rax. I don't get it. If it was a 1 gate expo, don't you think Polt would run him over even faster? | ||
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Gianttt
Netherlands194 Posts
On March 05 2012 19:37 aznkukuboi wrote: I was watching hwangsin's stream and he did a 2 gate expo. Was basically the exact build. He lost hard to TSLPolt's 2 rax. I don't get it. If it was a 1 gate expo, don't you think Polt would run him over even faster? It's not that you do a build to completely destroy someone. There is always a chance of losing. He probably has won games with the same build against the same build too  | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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Floris
Netherlands13 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
Basically 3 stalker opening, then an extra 2 stalkers. 5 Stalkers are a 'good number' in PvT because one volley kills SCV or a Marine. If you were going to progress with 2gate openings, whether it's something like what I've described or not - you should do it on maps with no ramp at the natural. Similar to the HuK 20food FE, where he pressures with 5 stalkers - it's much harder to abuse stalker range since you can't see up the cliff You would obv have to be active with the 5 stalkers, to pressure the T as much as possible. If it's a 1rax techlab expand, you will fall behind if he is allowed to CC on the low ground. Food for thought | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
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nath
United States1788 Posts
-stalkers suck balls vs concussive early, 2 mara 7 marine will destroy 5 stalker + first warpin of 2 units (probably zlots); especially if he reinforces fast on a 2 player map. -1 gate FE -> 3 gate by time wg finishes will give you more than enough to crush it if you have good micro and are careful, you can definitely delay him pushing out with stalkers, but if concussive hits too many, you've potentially lost the game. so i feel like this is one of those tightrope, double-edged protoss builds, like a timid version of kiwikaki's 2 gate zlot after ffe into 2 stargate; can be powerful but risky. edit: if you do this in reaction to scouting gasless FE, then its a very good build. im talking about solely vs 2 rax | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
On April 28 2012 05:58 nath wrote: i feel like its actually weaker vs 2 rax than a 1gate FE: -stalkers suck balls vs concussive early, 2 mara 7 marine will destroy 5 stalker + first warpin of 2 units (probably zlots); especially if he reinforces fast on a 2 player map. -1 gate FE -> 3 gate by time wg finishes will give you more than enough to crush it if you have good micro and are careful, you can definitely delay him pushing out with stalkers, but if concussive hits too many, you've potentially lost the game. so i feel like this is one of those tightrope, double-edged protoss builds, like a timid version of kiwikaki's 2 gate zlot after ffe into 2 stargate; can be powerful but risky. edit: if you do this in reaction to scouting gasless FE, then its a very good build. im talking about solely vs 2 rax The reason you would 3 stalker rush or whatever with 2 gates is so that you can go do extremely early harassment on the terrans initial units. You will be doing damage before any and all upgrades that they get, and might even be before more than 1 marauder comes out. You can micro the stalkers on the terrans ramp so that you dont lose them, and then kill the marines, if not just damage all of them. Depending on their reaction, they might freak out and make a bunker or 2, or pull scv's to repair their depots. I find that this works pretty well if you make a zealot out of your first gateway, and then follow up with 3 stalkers. Usually you can only get this to work if you save chrono for your gateways. | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
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