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On March 21 2012 22:57 theCablik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 22:48 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 22:40 McTeazy wrote:On March 21 2012 22:14 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote:
As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted. Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well. first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread. second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that. Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off. He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck. <3 :D Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it.
Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL* are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).?
Most of these pushes usually throw the latter 2-3 factories down at around 7:30-8:00 and then go when the reactors are done.
If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time.
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*+this random MKP vs MC replay I found.
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....
Cannot believe a mech Discussion has so much hatred.....
Instead of letting that happen please relax and have a good healthy debate 
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So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins.
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On March 21 2012 23:34 Grebliv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 22:57 theCablik wrote:On March 21 2012 22:48 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 22:40 McTeazy wrote:On March 21 2012 22:14 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote:
As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted. Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well. first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread. second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that. Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off. He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck. <3 :D Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it. Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).? If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time.
This. Replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66855/?set=4&lang=
MKP taking down Genius with Mech.
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IMO, the only way to be safe against blink all ins with a decent expansion timing and a starport (for hidden voids) is good maps. When half the main is exposed to blink i feel it is impossible to do solid mech openings.
At this point i have 2 builds. 1-1-1 that is decent against everything but dies to blink and fast 2 fact that is decent against everything but dies to voids. It's a gamble 
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On March 21 2012 23:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:IMO, the only way to be safe against blink all ins with a decent expansion timing and a starport (for hidden voids) is good maps. When half the main is exposed to blink i feel it is impossible to do solid mech openings. At this point i have 2 builds. 1-1-1 that is decent against everything but dies to blink and fast 2 fact that is decent against everything but dies to voids. It's a gamble
Be very active with your Hellions. They outrun everything Protoss has early, and if you spot the proxy, which should be easy, then it's gg!
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On March 21 2012 23:52 Seppuku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:47 Sapphire.lux wrote:IMO, the only way to be safe against blink all ins with a decent expansion timing and a starport (for hidden voids) is good maps. When half the main is exposed to blink i feel it is impossible to do solid mech openings. At this point i have 2 builds. 1-1-1 that is decent against everything but dies to blink and fast 2 fact that is decent against everything but dies to voids. It's a gamble Be very active with your Hellions. They outrun everything Protoss has early, and if you spot the proxy, which should be easy, then it's gg!
They out run anything that doesn't fly haha they are great cannons kinda do them in though. I really feel even though you are going for mech you really should go for marine tank before going into hellions. They are just not very useful early game.
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On March 21 2012 23:46 Blasterion wrote:
So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins.
Yes, and also Barracks are a cheap way to manipulate battlefields. With Mech you have tons of extra minerals, and building/floating Barracks on the battlefield to create artificial chokes and block flanking attempts will surprise you with how powerful it can be!
I've watched Yoshi Kirishima's games on his stream quite a bit, and on Shakuras Plateau, after taking his 3rd base, he often builds two Planetaries and a ton of ebays/barracks to wall off and turtle up in the middle and controlling the watchtowers, and then uses sensor towers on the outsides of the map so he can see any kind of harassment attempt coming, then he just takes all his bases. Since Mech is usually only limited by gas income and not minerals, this is actually surprisingly affordable. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet though because every Protoss I've played on ladder since I decided to try Mech has allinned me, or it hasn't been on this map.
Also, I think despite Lynna's advice to stay with Banshees despite Colossi, I think it might be a good idea to make a Reactor whenever you choose to get your 2nd Starport. I say this because Vikings are useful for stopping Warp Prisms, you can make a single Medivac for dropping Hellions to harass sniping Observers, and can help a ton when
A. You decide to switch to full Sky Terran (Raven/BC/Viking/Banshee)
B. Protoss tries to make their own mass Air switch to Carriers and/or Void Rays
Anyway my current mindset/gameplan with Mech in TvP has been to constantly remind myself of two things: turtle and harass. I only push when I'm trying to get rid of my early game Marines, which is always at the time I scout the Protoss taking his 3rd (while I take my own 3rd behind it). Other than that I just use Banshees, Hellion drops, and Hellion runbys to kill as many Probes as possible while I secure an economic and army advantage as I max out with tons of orbitals, a low SCV count, and a gigantic, well upgraded and diverse Mech army. Also I survive behind strategic building of sensor towers, barracks/planetaries, and turrets. To those more experienced with mech, does that sound like a solid game plan?
Also I'm trying to work on incorporating more Ghosts into my play, but I don't usually feel the need for Ghosts unless I scout huge Immortal/Archon numbers. However if I'm able to get BCs out, I often don't feel like the Ghosts are necessary to deal with Archons and Immortals unless the Protoss is specifically massing them.
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On March 22 2012 00:02 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:46 Blasterion wrote:
So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins. Yes, and also Barracks are a cheap way to manipulate battlefields. With Mech you have tons of extra minerals, and building/floating Barracks on the battlefield to create artificial chokes and block flanking attempts will surprise you with how powerful it can be! I've watched Yoshi Kirishima's games on his stream quite a bit, and on Shakuras Plateau, after taking his 3rd base, he often builds two Planetaries and a ton of ebays/barracks to wall off and turtle up in the middle and controlling the watchtowers, and then uses sensor towers on the outsides of the map so he can see any kind of harassment attempt coming, then he just takes all his bases. Since Mech is usually only limited by gas income and not minerals, this is actually surprisingly affordable. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet though because every Protoss I've played on ladder since I decided to try Mech has allinned me, or it hasn't been on this map. Also, I think despite Lynna's advice to stay with Banshees despite Colossi, I think it might be a good idea to make a Reactor whenever you choose to get your 2nd Starport. I say this because Vikings are useful for stopping Warp Prisms, you can make a single Medivac for dropping Hellions to harass sniping Observers, and can help a ton when A. You decide to switch to full Sky Terran (Raven/BC/Viking/Banshee) B. Protoss tries to make their own mass Air switch to Carriers and/or Void Rays Anyway my current mindset/gameplan with Mech in TvP has been to constantly remind myself of two things: turtle and harass. I only push when I'm trying to get rid of my early game Marines, which is always at the time I scout the Protoss taking his 3rd (while I take my own 3rd behind it). Other than that I just use Banshees, Hellion drops, and Hellion runbys to kill as many Probes as possible while I secure an economic and army advantage as I max out with tons of orbitals, a low SCV count, and a gigantic, well upgraded and diverse Mech army. Also I survive behind strategic building of sensor towers, barracks/planetaries, and turrets. To those more experienced with mech, does that sound like a solid game plan? Also I'm trying to work on incorporating more Ghosts into my play, but I don't usually feel the need for Ghosts unless I scout huge Immortal/Archon numbers. However if I'm able to get BCs out, I often don't feel like the Ghosts are necessary to deal with Archons and Immortals unless the Protoss is specifically massing them.
Planetaries why you cost gas
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On March 22 2012 00:05 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:02 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 23:46 Blasterion wrote:
So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins. Yes, and also Barracks are a cheap way to manipulate battlefields. With Mech you have tons of extra minerals, and building/floating Barracks on the battlefield to create artificial chokes and block flanking attempts will surprise you with how powerful it can be! I've watched Yoshi Kirishima's games on his stream quite a bit, and on Shakuras Plateau, after taking his 3rd base, he often builds two Planetaries and a ton of ebays/barracks to wall off and turtle up in the middle and controlling the watchtowers, and then uses sensor towers on the outsides of the map so he can see any kind of harassment attempt coming, then he just takes all his bases. Since Mech is usually only limited by gas income and not minerals, this is actually surprisingly affordable. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet though because every Protoss I've played on ladder since I decided to try Mech has allinned me, or it hasn't been on this map. Also, I think despite Lynna's advice to stay with Banshees despite Colossi, I think it might be a good idea to make a Reactor whenever you choose to get your 2nd Starport. I say this because Vikings are useful for stopping Warp Prisms, you can make a single Medivac for dropping Hellions to harass sniping Observers, and can help a ton when A. You decide to switch to full Sky Terran (Raven/BC/Viking/Banshee) B. Protoss tries to make their own mass Air switch to Carriers and/or Void Rays Anyway my current mindset/gameplan with Mech in TvP has been to constantly remind myself of two things: turtle and harass. I only push when I'm trying to get rid of my early game Marines, which is always at the time I scout the Protoss taking his 3rd (while I take my own 3rd behind it). Other than that I just use Banshees, Hellion drops, and Hellion runbys to kill as many Probes as possible while I secure an economic and army advantage as I max out with tons of orbitals, a low SCV count, and a gigantic, well upgraded and diverse Mech army. Also I survive behind strategic building of sensor towers, barracks/planetaries, and turrets. To those more experienced with mech, does that sound like a solid game plan? Also I'm trying to work on incorporating more Ghosts into my play, but I don't usually feel the need for Ghosts unless I scout huge Immortal/Archon numbers. However if I'm able to get BCs out, I often don't feel like the Ghosts are necessary to deal with Archons and Immortals unless the Protoss is specifically massing them. Planetaries why you cost gas
Yeah, but I'd rather have 2 Planetaries making my entire Mech army more powerful than 1 Thor and 1 Tank added to it. Conversely if you don't want to spend gas you could build Orbitals on the CCs in the middle, which then proceed to actually help your economy quite a bit.
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On March 22 2012 00:11 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:05 Blasterion wrote:On March 22 2012 00:02 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 23:46 Blasterion wrote:
So yeah back to the topic I think late game planetaries are great ways to hinder mass post battle warp ins. Yes, and also Barracks are a cheap way to manipulate battlefields. With Mech you have tons of extra minerals, and building/floating Barracks on the battlefield to create artificial chokes and block flanking attempts will surprise you with how powerful it can be! I've watched Yoshi Kirishima's games on his stream quite a bit, and on Shakuras Plateau, after taking his 3rd base, he often builds two Planetaries and a ton of ebays/barracks to wall off and turtle up in the middle and controlling the watchtowers, and then uses sensor towers on the outsides of the map so he can see any kind of harassment attempt coming, then he just takes all his bases. Since Mech is usually only limited by gas income and not minerals, this is actually surprisingly affordable. I haven't gotten the chance to try it yet though because every Protoss I've played on ladder since I decided to try Mech has allinned me, or it hasn't been on this map. Also, I think despite Lynna's advice to stay with Banshees despite Colossi, I think it might be a good idea to make a Reactor whenever you choose to get your 2nd Starport. I say this because Vikings are useful for stopping Warp Prisms, you can make a single Medivac for dropping Hellions to harass sniping Observers, and can help a ton when A. You decide to switch to full Sky Terran (Raven/BC/Viking/Banshee) B. Protoss tries to make their own mass Air switch to Carriers and/or Void Rays Anyway my current mindset/gameplan with Mech in TvP has been to constantly remind myself of two things: turtle and harass. I only push when I'm trying to get rid of my early game Marines, which is always at the time I scout the Protoss taking his 3rd (while I take my own 3rd behind it). Other than that I just use Banshees, Hellion drops, and Hellion runbys to kill as many Probes as possible while I secure an economic and army advantage as I max out with tons of orbitals, a low SCV count, and a gigantic, well upgraded and diverse Mech army. Also I survive behind strategic building of sensor towers, barracks/planetaries, and turrets. To those more experienced with mech, does that sound like a solid game plan? Also I'm trying to work on incorporating more Ghosts into my play, but I don't usually feel the need for Ghosts unless I scout huge Immortal/Archon numbers. However if I'm able to get BCs out, I often don't feel like the Ghosts are necessary to deal with Archons and Immortals unless the Protoss is specifically massing them. Planetaries why you cost gas Yeah, but I'd rather have 2 Planetaries making my entire Mech army more powerful than 1 Thor and 1 Tank added to it. Conversely if you don't want to spend gas you could build Orbitals on the CCs in the middle, which then proceed to actually help your economy quite a bit. Except orbitals don't have 5 armor.
Btw ghost academies make the best walls. Most hp/cost with the highest repair rate of any Terran building. Too bad though they too cost gas but they are very very good walls over 1k health with 30 build time? The repair rate is absolutely insane. Also they store nukes.
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Could be a good idea if you have a ton of bank and want to nuke harass! Wouldn't it be weird if the protoss has vision of the ghost academies when he's getting nuked?
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On March 22 2012 00:16 crocodile wrote:
Could be a good idea if you have a ton of bank and want to nuke harass! Wouldn't it be weird if the protoss has vision of the ghost academies when he's getting nuked?
They'll think it's like bm or something but hahaha silos make great walls and build very fast, raxs build twice as slow with less hp, not worth it.
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On March 21 2012 23:47 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:34 Grebliv wrote:On March 21 2012 22:57 theCablik wrote:On March 21 2012 22:48 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 22:40 McTeazy wrote:On March 21 2012 22:14 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote:
As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted. Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well. first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread. second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that. Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off. He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck. <3 :D Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it. Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).? If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time. This. Replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66855/?set=4&lang=MKP taking down Genius with Mech.
What that game showed me is how overrated hellions are against zealots. Note that there was allmost no splash dmg from P (he forgot to upgrade storm lol).
In the first fight there were 16 Zealots 4 Stalker and 4 Sentrys against 11 Hellions 5 Tanks and 25 Marines Don't wana whine to much but i think there is a cost efficiency problem aswel with mech, particularly since the hellion nerf.
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On March 22 2012 00:19 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:47 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 23:34 Grebliv wrote:On March 21 2012 22:57 theCablik wrote:On March 21 2012 22:48 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 22:40 McTeazy wrote:On March 21 2012 22:14 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote:
As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted. Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well. first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread. second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that. Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off. He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck. <3 :D Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it. Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).? If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time. This. Replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66855/?set=4&lang=MKP taking down Genius with Mech. What that game showed me is how overrated hellions are against zealots. Note that there was allmost no splash dmg from P (he forgot to upgrade storm lol). In the first fight there were 16 Zealots 4 Stalker and 4 Sentrys against 11 Hellions 5 Tanks and 25 Marines Don't wana whine to much but i think there is a cost efficiency problem aswel with mech, particularly since the hellion nerf.
Hellions are more buffering than anything your real dps come from tank thor banshee. Hellions suck build only enough to buffer for your tanks your real core units should actually be tank banshee
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On March 22 2012 00:20 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:19 Sapphire.lux wrote:On March 21 2012 23:47 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 23:34 Grebliv wrote:On March 21 2012 22:57 theCablik wrote:On March 21 2012 22:48 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 22:40 McTeazy wrote:On March 21 2012 22:14 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote:
As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted. Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well. first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread. second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that. Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off. He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck. <3 :D Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it. Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).? If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time. This. Replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66855/?set=4&lang=MKP taking down Genius with Mech. What that game showed me is how overrated hellions are against zealots. Note that there was allmost no splash dmg from P (he forgot to upgrade storm lol). In the first fight there were 16 Zealots 4 Stalker and 4 Sentrys against 11 Hellions 5 Tanks and 25 Marines Don't wana whine to much but i think there is a cost efficiency problem aswel with mech, particularly since the hellion nerf. Hellions are more buffering than anything your real dps come from tank thor banshee. Hellions suck build only enough to buffer for your tanks
I know, that's how i do it. It's just for people that think that Hellions are great against Zealots. They just aren't. When you add AOE from protoss it gets very messy. Gues that's why they are adding Battle Hellions (buffing their HP :p )
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On March 22 2012 00:26 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 00:20 Blasterion wrote:On March 22 2012 00:19 Sapphire.lux wrote:On March 21 2012 23:47 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 23:34 Grebliv wrote:On March 21 2012 22:57 theCablik wrote:On March 21 2012 22:48 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 22:40 McTeazy wrote:On March 21 2012 22:14 crocodile wrote:On March 21 2012 21:49 Methy wrote:
As a Protoss player I love it when terran tries to go mech. I honestly feel that, provided the skill level of the two players is the same, and provided the protoss scouts mech early enough, there is absolutely no reason the Protoss should lose.
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing.
Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying.
Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map.
As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids.
The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it.
Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly.
tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard.
edit: typo First of all this thread is not about mech viability, its about how to mech. Your input is not wanted. Second of all, yes mech can move out before 12 minutes. I think its more that you have not faced a well-controlled mech army/ build than that you know how to handle mech so well. first of all, he spent time writing that post providing useful content. his input is very much wanted. just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he doesn't belong here. think of protoss players who might be reading this thread. second of all, provide evidence. his post was well thought out, yours is not Oh my god we've been through this a dozen times in this thread. If you want to talk about mech viability go to another thread, this is about improving mech play for those who don't give a shit about that. Do you honestly think what he said is anything nobody else has said in the last 20 pages? Its nothing new or useful, really. Do you think anyone here wants to get told by ANOTHER closed minded sheep that mech is not viable? Fuck off. He made several strong points showing how HE believes mech is not viable. If you don't want responses from people giving their opinion on whether or not a strategy is viable, then dont make a fucking thread about it with a fucking [D] on it. Grow the fuck up and learn how to ignore people if you really dont want to hear their input. ALSO: "closed minded sheep" how is stating your opinion based on every bit of experience and evidence up to this point being a "closed minded sheep?" You are an ignorant fuck. <3 :D Edit: Forgot to add that any push by mech before the 12:00 mark will get utterly crushed cause it will be tiny and ineffective. Gateway units will shit on it. Is that why the only actual mech pushes seen in the GSL are all 9:30-12 min 4fac tank hellion (marine residue) pushes (designed against 2base toss play none the less; as in no 6 min third).? If terran is good at anything it's all-inning at around that time. This. Replay: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66855/?set=4&lang=MKP taking down Genius with Mech. What that game showed me is how overrated hellions are against zealots. Note that there was allmost no splash dmg from P (he forgot to upgrade storm lol). In the first fight there were 16 Zealots 4 Stalker and 4 Sentrys against 11 Hellions 5 Tanks and 25 Marines Don't wana whine to much but i think there is a cost efficiency problem aswel with mech, particularly since the hellion nerf. Hellions are more buffering than anything your real dps come from tank thor banshee. Hellions suck build only enough to buffer for your tanks I know, that's how i do it. It's just for people that think that Hellions are great against Zealots. They just aren't. When you add AOE from protoss it gets very messy. Gues that's why they are adding Battle Hellions (buffing their HP :p )
I'd just use shredder tank lol...... I think that would actually work brilliantly
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I am a convert (plat terran). Many thanks to those contributing to this thread I have been playing the vileIllusion type build with some success and lots of fun. Couple of questions for the experienced mechers.
1.What is the best harassment to a cannoned base?
2. If the protoss compostion is colosuss heavy are vikings a good idea assuming you dont have several starports with techlabs for banshee or many banshees already?
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On March 22 2012 00:28 Evenfl0w wrote:
I am a convert (plat terran). Many thanks to those contributing to this thread I have been playing the vileIllusion type build with some success and lots of fun. Couple of questions for the experienced mechers.
1.What is the best harassment to a cannoned base?
2. If the protoss compostion is colosuss heavy are vikings a good idea assuming you dont have several starports with techlabs for banshee or many banshees already?
1. There is never a good answer for this. It depends on the cannon position an terrain. Hellions are usually an option to run in and kill probes, banshee aren't great against cannons. If its a position you can siege like taldarim, then tanks are great. Otherwise you can always nuke them from outside cannon range. And then run your hellions in if the probes survive.
2. Against colossus Viking is usually An better option because they fight from siege range thus zoning the colossus, and if stalkers come in they'll be eating tank shells. Banshees are higher dps but are risky.
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No no no no no no. Hellions have endless utility with mech if you can multitask. I don't know if you ever play Bio vs zerg, but the trick in the mu is to drop whenever you do anything. Take another base? Drop. Add production? Drop. Zerg attacks you? Drop. Same applies to hellions with mech.
Whenever you need breathing room (basically all the time) drop hellions in one place, run them in another place, etc. I get two reactor factories out of my first three. And in large numbers, they DO annihilate charge lots. They are also your mobile reaction force. Hellions are really good, you might just not be using them right.
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EPT
