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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:44 crocodile wrote: the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker). Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls1/vod/66894/?set=5&lang= I'm pretty sure this game is a little higher level than Jinro vs Socke, and it's on a ladder map too. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote: Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation. If the Protoss does not pressure you and you've made 2 bunkers blind, you are horribly behind even if you do sell them. If you don't understand why, I'm not sure how I can have any discussion with you because we're at completely different levels of game understanding. | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:53 crocodile wrote: If the Protoss does not pressure you and you've made 2 bunkers blind, you are horribly behind even if you do sell them. If you don't understand why, I'm not sure how I can have any discussion with you because we're at completely different levels of game understanding. You just did a FE no gaz how can you be behind ? Also, if the toss do a FE either you'll see it if you scout, and you don't need that extra bunker. On March 21 2012 11:53 crocodile wrote: I'm not sure how I can have any discussion with you because we're at completely different levels of game understanding. completely different levels ! really lol. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 21 2012 12:03 Gyro_SC2 wrote: You just did a FE no gaz how can you be behind ? Also, if the toss do a FE either you'll see it if you scout, and you don't need that extra bunker. completely different levels ! really lol. Go ahead and try it in your rank 1 gold league, then, I'm sure it'll work just fine there. I should have known better than to try to make you understand. | ||
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote: Maybe with this you need a second bunker incase and after you sell it. Dont say Jinro blind 2nd bunker, Im sure its in his preparation. I remember the interview after jinro won those games. The 2nd bunker is not blind it IS part of his preparation he explains that if he scouts 2nd gas then he builds that bunker in his main and leaves 1 marine in the lower bunker as a decoy. Just clearing that up. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 21 2012 12:06 Picklebread wrote: I remember the interview after jinro won those games. The 2nd bunker is not blind it IS part of his preparation he explains that if he scouts 2nd gas then he builds that bunker in his main and leaves 1 marine in the lower bunker as a decoy. Just clearing that up. Just re-stating that he still would've lost to the Void Rays if Socke had executed half decently. He also would have auto-lost to an Immortal allin which also has an early 2nd gas. No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals. | ||
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On March 21 2012 12:10 crocodile wrote: Just re-stating that he still would've lost to the Void Rays if Socke had executed half decently. He also would have auto-lost to an Immortal allin which also has an early 2nd gas. No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals. He had a siege tank with siege mode, a viking, a bunker with scvs ready to mass repair AND he woulda saw any zealots warping into his base. Jinro was in a good position to hold that off even IF socke executed that all in well. Having a viking to zone out the void rays and a siege tank with siege mode behind a bunker with mass repair scvs sounds pretty safe to a void ray all in to me. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 21 2012 12:22 Picklebread wrote: He had a siege tank with siege mode, a viking, a bunker with scvs ready to mass repair AND he woulda saw any zealots warping into his base. Jinro was in a good position to hold that off even IF socke executed that all in well. Having a viking to zone out the void rays and a siege tank with siege mode behind a bunker with mass repair scvs sounds pretty safe to a void ray all in to me. The Tank with siege mode finished AFTER Socke should have been in his base killing his stuff. And like I said, he didn't warp in at the pylon that he built outside Jinro's main, which is the dumbest decision I've ever seen a pro gamer make. The viking didn't come out until WAY after Socke had already lost the game. AND the Void Ray allin was late, as I mentioned before. This stuff is obvious, right? I'm not crazy am I? I feel like I'm on the bnet forums again. | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
if its a big allin 1base 10min push immotal, you should do 2port banshee. | ||
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On March 21 2012 12:58 Gyro_SC2 wrote: how to hold immortel? you make banshee instead of the viking and you mass repair the front and the banshee! if its a big allin 1base 10min push immotal, you should do 2port banshee. is this a joke? | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
Also banshees are very good for killing immortal, because one missile does 12dommage and the shield block at 10! So the banshees do almost full dommage again immortal. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
Phew, I'm not crazy, this guy really does have no idea what he's talking about. | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
On March 21 2012 12:10 crocodile wrote: No way 1 Bunker and 1 marine production will hold 1-2 Immortals. ok I test the build with a friend. If I do a FE no gaz and I do a 1-1-1 and I see he dont expo (around 6min) I can keep my second OC in my base and build a second bunker like jinro. I scout for see if he got immortal or VR. If immortal, I do mass starport banshee+raven+viking+massrax marine(because I have a lot of minerals). I feel its always good to make the viking first incase of VR, after I do banshee and one raven. I tried some different build where I only make banshee but it was too weak to the stalkers. But if I add one raven and one viking and can do the combo, pdd and I snipe the observer. When the toss lose his observer, he has to wait until a new observer for a new attack, and the allin timing is finish. If he comes with more than an observer during his first push, he will have less immortel. So in conclusion you can do a no gaz FE into 1-1-1 | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Blink stalker 4gate prism | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 21 2012 15:46 Gyro_SC2 wrote: ok I test the build with a friend. If I do a FE no gaz and I do a 1-1-1 and I see he dont expo (around 6min) I can keep my second OC in my base and build a second bunker like jinro. I scout for see if he got immortal or VR. If immortal, I do mass starport banshee+raven+viking+massrax marine(because I have a lot of minerals). I feel its always good to make the viking first incase of VR, after I do banshee and one raven. I tried some different build where I only make banshee but it was too weak to the stalkers. But if I add one raven and one viking and can do the combo, pdd and I snipe the observer. When the toss lose his observer, he has to wait until a new observer for a new attack, and the allin timing is finish. If he comes with more than an observer during his first push, he will have less immortel. So in conclusion you can do a no gaz FE into 1-1-1 You're a joke. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On March 21 2012 15:46 Gyro_SC2 wrote: ok I test the build with a friend. If I do a FE no gaz and I do a 1-1-1 and I see he dont expo (around 6min) I can keep my second OC in my base and build a second bunker like jinro. I scout for see if he got immortal or VR. If immortal, I do mass starport banshee+raven+viking+massrax marine(because I have a lot of minerals). I feel its always good to make the viking first incase of VR, after I do banshee and one raven. I tried some different build where I only make banshee but it was too weak to the stalkers. But if I add one raven and one viking and can do the combo, pdd and I snipe the observer. When the toss lose his observer, he has to wait until a new observer for a new attack, and the allin timing is finish. If he comes with more than an observer during his first push, he will have less immortel. So in conclusion you can do a no gaz FE into 1-1-1 No really, I'm pretty sure sniping an observer with Raven/Viking/Banshee is not going to save you from Immortal bust.. If it works for you then your Protoss partner is terrible, terrible Protoss player. You won't have even your Viking in time and you are talking about Ravens, let's keep this real.. edit: If you really insist on your conclusions, post replay where we could see how this works, otherwise, it's just plain words with no real meaning. | ||
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
Essentially the match plays out in a very similar fashion to Brood War PvT, with the Terran player being passive early and building up a monster army to hit a well defined push timing. Only Protoss now has several incredible advantages. Charge is better against tanks than speed was in Broodwar, Dragoons can now blink making them way more effective, and the immortal has been added which just flat out stomps siege tanks. Granted vikings mean carriers are no longer an option, and the lack of arbitors is painful *BUT* the mothership fills exactly the same role. Storms are also far less effective against tank clusters than they were in broodwar, but not *totally* ineffective, and the lack of reavers is pretty annoying. Added to this you have the fact that, while siege tanks in general are more effective due to unit clustering, their reduced damage per shot means they are WAY more vulnerable to flanking, which is now MUCH easier to do due to blink / charge. Then hellions <<<< vultures. I'm almost willing to state that as a flat out fact. People like to talk about the big moments when hellions rack up dozens of worker kills, but in all honesty hellion raids never seem to do nearly as much damage as vulture raids did. The lack of mines means that there's nothing to keep the protoss player from launching blink raids all over the map. As such if a Protoss player just plays exactly like it's a Brood War game he should win. Taking a third at the 6 minute mark, flat out neglecting upgrades, macroing like a beast, and if the game goes late, using mass recall to bypass the terran army. What's even better is you can now completely wall off additional bases to block hellions, as your 'dragoons' can simply blink over the wall, further diminishing the effect of hellion raids. The *ONLY* reason that mech works at all imo is because the average protoss player simply doesn't know how to deal with it. Sure your lategame army is WAY more cost efficient than a standard protoss deathball, I'm totally willing to accept that (though I would argue the ultimate protoss death ball is still better - another option that wasn't available in brood war), but the simple fact of the matter is the Protoss should have WAYYY more production than you. The protoss should be exploiting the hell out of the fact that a mech army cannot hope to move out before the ~12 minute mark, and by the time you do move out, he should be maxed and capable of throwing away his army and then remaxing very quickly. tl;dr the only reason mech works at all in PvT is because the average protoss player doesn't know how to deal with it, and tries to play standard. edit: typo | ||
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