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On March 20 2012 23:39 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 22:48 crocodile wrote:On March 20 2012 11:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
I just want to know your opinion on the 2base timing tvp
I see two way to play MECH tvp:
2base timingpush, lyyna style macrothird
If the toss
2base immo: you can push but you need banshee+thors, dont make tank, You can 2basepush. (Virus v Huk)
2base chargelot: dont make tank, only thors+hellion. You can 2basepush.
2base chargelot+archon+templar: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+ghost. You can 2basepush.
2base VR: don't make tank, only thors+hellion+viking. You can 2basepush.
2base carrier: you can do a tank+hellion+viking push before, but when he got some carrier its better to macrothird and have some viking and fast transition to BC (lyyna build)
Protoss take a fast third: You can push with tank+hellion
2base blink stalker: you can push with tank+hellion
2base collo: you can push with tank+hellion+viking This is what bugs me about sc2 players lately. You seem to think of the game in terms of base count and unit composition, and you've listed this as if its the entirety of toss' possible builds. You have not outlined the timings for these recommended pushes, how you would scout that the toss has these compositions, or when you alter your composition and what support units you use. To illustrate, Virus' push against Huk was not a reaction to huk going '2 base immo.' Its a two base allin build that is planned from the start of the game. Your post demonstrates a painful lack of understanding of this game. For exemple, You plan to do a tank push and you see the toss got 2base immo. I would not push and macro instead. You plan to do a thors-banshee push and you see the toss got 2base immo. I would push. Listing possibility is having a great understanding of this game.
No, it is not. You demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of the depth and complexity of how you scout and react in this game. There is no build as simple as 'going 2 base immortal.' Even if there was, how do you know he's going 2 base Immortal? Is he allinning with 2 base Immortal or is he pressuring? Is he going to use the Immortals to take a 3rd, or is he going to follow up with double forge and delay his 3rd? Is he going to go for some further tech behind it? What scouting information have you given him? Why do you macro instead of pushing? Do you decide before the game to do a Thor/Banshee push or do you do it reactively? If so, what do you look for when scouting and how do you react to it and when?
These are all questions that should determine your decision making in a game that you have showed you do not even consider, and until you understand why these questions are important and can answer them, you should not be giving people advice in any thread.
On March 20 2012 23:56 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 23:02 crocodile wrote:
Don't blame the community for being intolerant of mech if you tried to sell them on a 1 rax gasless expand into 1/1/1 opener. For the opening, I think you can do a FE no gaz and transition to 1-1-1. If you see the protoss don't expo and you think he will allin you. You can change your plan and do a big bio force with mass rax. And later go back to the Lyyna build.
You just aren't factoring in relevant ability to scout and react. You can't just 'change your plan' if you already have your 1/1/1 up after expo and you realize he hasn't expanded by the 6:30-7 minute mark (this will be the case, I have tried this build).
This is possible as Zerg, but as Terran (or even Protoss), your build has to be planned out from the start to be able to deal with allins given relevant/reasonable scouting. This is why all Mech builds incorporate an early Reactored Barracks, because I guarantee you you can have all the bunkers in the world but with 1 rax producing 1 Marine at a time, you will never hold off a Void Ray, Immortal, 4 Gate, or DT allin. If were as simple as 'just scout and change your plan' allins would never work in this game.
Here is why your reasoning does not work. There are plenty of builds that are NOT allin that would give you the same scouting information. A 3 gate Sentry expand, a 1 gate Robo, 3 gate pressure expand, 3 gate Robo, and a simple 1 gate FE with early double gas for Robo follow up all have double gas in the early game. Your logic is that if the Protoss' expo is delayed or you scout early double gas, you'll throw down a bunch of rax and miraculously stop the allin that you know is coming. Even if that could work (it won't), you'll have prevented yourself from playing mech (because you threw down a bunch of rax to survive the allin) and you'll have a horribly non-optimal build regardless if you play bio or mech afterwards, all because of your response to any one of those COMPLETELY STANDARD Protoss openers.
Also: wtf is 2 base VR? Who on earth has ever made Void Rays off of 2 base in a PvT? I've seen 1 base VR allins and late game VR transitions vs mech, but never a '2 Base VR.'
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Hey, I'm playing Mech vP right now with an "accelerated" hellion expand, basically meaning gas first into factory before orbital:
10 supply depot
11 gas
12 barracks (skip one scv!)
16 factory
17 orbital + reactor on the barracks (SCVs out of the gas after 150)
17 supply depot
switch facory and barracks and get out 2+1 hellions asap, because 3 hellions beat 1stalker (and can micro against 1-2 zealots easily) and produce up to 4marines (if you are up against 1base keep on producing them)
and somewhere at 30 expand and then scvs back on the gas; bunker up accordingly and take the second gas
after that I'm adding double factory with tech labs for tanks (if I'm up against SG 1fac 1SP).
Any thoughts on that? I feel quite comfortable with that opening, it gives me mapcontrol superfast, leads to some easy wins sometimes (through hellion harass against sentries or probes), but as I'm only offracing Terran it might not cover everything. On the proside, I don't feel like I have to do damage with it, as I'm not investing into some heavy tech of one base (like blueflame or banshees) with it and I'm skipping this awkward "get a bunch of bio first" phase, that costs quite a bunch of money, but doesn't really help my follow up plan (mech). - btw I'm using this build against Z as well;
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On March 20 2012 07:12 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote:
Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof.
I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours.. edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion.
This is why I usually never post on TL, yet the strategy forums. I played alot of mech in tvp and I eventually stopped doing it, as my opponents got better and played far more abusive. Of course you can sometimes throw out the eventual mechbuild, like JJajki did against Puzzle on daybreak once I think, and win with it. But I think those wins are rather because you either already win with some kind of hellion harass or because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it and/or is surpised.
Have you actually seen some progames? EmpireHappy took out players such as Creator, who probably is one of the most influential pvt players in the world, and MaNa, who is also known for very good pvt with massghost/viking.
+ Show Spoiler +I also like how you call a top100 gm player a diamond scrub.
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Waow , lots of posts.
@Seppuku : To deal with immo, well . . . if i'm going for macro style (while opening thor and banshee for defense), i'll get early ghosts (like around 12-14 min) while starting tanks too. If i go for a 2 base push (like my 1 rax 3 fact 1 port push) i'll have a shitload of marines,hellions and banshee, so immortals cant even touch my tanks.
@Everlong : i fucking love the " this guy Lyyna just sit there, macro up and fucking own everything" sentence.
I also see a lots of posts about opening,stuff like that. Well, there is a lots of mech openings, and i guess some people (including myself) gave a good advice and summary about most openings 1 or 2 pages ago.
I would just add something : it's not because you plan to go mech that you HAVE to follow your opening and go mech whatever the toss throw at you. You can perfectly switch, change your build,etc. For example if i open with my 1 rax double gas expo and i scout some VR play on 1 Base,i'll just cancel my CC,throw 2 rax, and go 311 marine/tank/banshee because well . . . this is for me the only time where marines are good in TvP :D. Same apply to 111 expo (except that your opponent may be prepared for a 111 . . :/). I'm also having fun with some 311 using marine/hellion/banshee which is really fun
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On March 21 2012 01:12 Lyyna wrote:
Waow , lots of posts.
@Seppuku : To deal with immo, well . . . if i'm going for macro style (while opening thor and banshee for defense), i'll get early ghosts (like around 12-14 min) while starting tanks too. If i go for a 2 base push (like my 1 rax 3 fact 1 port push) i'll have a shitload of marines,hellions and banshee, so immortals cant even touch my tanks.
@Everlong : i fucking love the " this guy Lyyna just sit there, macro up and fucking own everything" sentence.
I also see a lots of posts about opening,stuff like that. Well, there is a lots of mech openings, and i guess some people (including myself) gave a good advice and summary about most openings 1 or 2 pages ago.
I would just add something : it's not because you plan to go mech that you HAVE to follow your opening and go mech whatever the toss throw at you. You can perfectly switch, change your build,etc. For example if i open with my 1 rax double gas expo and i scout some VR play on 1 Base,i'll just cancel my CC,throw 2 rax, and go 311 marine/tank/banshee because well . . . this is for me the only time where marines are good in TvP :D. Same apply to 111 expo (except that your opponent may be prepared for a 111 . . :/). I'm also having fun with some 311 using marine/hellion/banshee which is really fun
By the time you scout a VR allin on one base, it's too late to change your build up that much in time IMO. Can you post a replay of you defending a VR allin with your build? I don't doubt your opener can work, but to have to cancel a CC and allin to defend a 1 base allin is a bit silly don't you think? If they scout you cancelled a CC they can just expand with a strong army and their econ will have paid off by the time you can attack. If they're not doing that they're not very good Protosses.
Like I said, I recommend a Reactor Barracks expand. You get plenty of marines out early and can still tech up almost as quickly as 1/1/1 on one base. I rarely lose to allins unless I make a mistake in micro or get lazy with scouting. I can post replays if you like, but I don't have a lot of replays of me following up with mech, usually in the past I've done a Marine/Marauder/Banshee/Raven timing attack with a BC follow up OR a Marine/Tank/Banshee timing OR the Marine/Thor/Banshee timing everyone is talking about. I never play Bio 
My point is that the opener is safe and sound though (all these builds are Reactor expand directly into Cloak Banshee). My mech experience is limited so far because for some reason these days I rarely get Toss on ladder and if I do, they allin me T_T
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Well, you have to assume the protoss is playing well (always hard of course) to say 'ok he's going for proxy VR' or stuff like that, but you can really scout it in time . And i personnally always do the CC in base so the protoss cant see i canceled it. And my response will basically be (in terms of army) a 111 push with delayed tanks/banshee but a lots of marines.
Yeah, reactor marine is a really good opening. Basically the best if you don't want to be overgreedy (like with my 1 rax double gas CC) and don't feel the need to be super safe (111 expo)
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I'm not sure about your opening.. wouldn't a 4gate or 3gate stargate demolish your FE tech opening? Now of course if you can get the thors out, you are in very good shape... I am just wondering at what minutes mark are your thors out of the factories?
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The thor get out around 9/9:30. So basically you need to scout the coming allin , retreat on 1 bases, get bunkers,and try to get the closest "high tech" unit possible. Usually tanks and banshees . . .
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On March 21 2012 01:10 yoigen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:12 Everlong wrote:On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote:
Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof.
I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours.. edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion. This is why I usually never post on TL, yet the strategy forums. I played alot of mech in tvp and I eventually stopped doing it, as my opponents got better and played far more abusive. Of course you can sometimes throw out the eventual mechbuild, like JJajki did against Puzzle on daybreak once I think, and win with it. But I think those wins are rather because you either already win with some kind of hellion harass or because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it and/or is surpised. Have you actually seen some progames? EmpireHappy took out players such as Creator, who probably is one of the most influential pvt players in the world, and MaNa, who is also known for very good pvt with massghost/viking. + Show Spoiler +I also like how you call a top100 gm player a diamond scrub.
Ok, I'll take back this "random diamond player" (not a scrub), but how can you write something so obviously questionable as "as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers" while what actually happens every single time in TvP late game is that Terran is floating at least over 1k gas.. I've seen many pro players lately just lose no matter how good their composition was, just plain and simple. It's not like you can't deal with 200/200 from Protoss with say absolutely proper counter-based army composed of MMM + Ghost/Viking and proper possition.. It's the late-game (warp-in mechanic), what kills you, not the composition.. So Terran is actually forced to trade effectively, which is huge problem on it's own. Don't you dare to trade 50/50, because then you just lose to reinforcements (well, you could potentionaly fall behind 2-3 PF's if you happen to have them up somehow). I've been watching ForGG's stream lately and it's just insane how easily he loses TvP's..
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564 Posts
On March 21 2012 01:10 yoigen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:12 Everlong wrote:On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote:
Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof.
I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours.. edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion. This is why I usually never post on TL, yet the strategy forums. I played alot of mech in tvp and I eventually stopped doing it, as my opponents got better and played far more abusive. Of course you can sometimes throw out the eventual mechbuild, like JJajki did against Puzzle on daybreak once I think, and win with it. But I think those wins are rather because you either already win with some kind of hellion harass or because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it and/or is surpised. Have you actually seen some progames? EmpireHappy took out players such as Creator, who probably is one of the most influential pvt players in the world, and MaNa, who is also known for very good pvt with massghost/viking. + Show Spoiler +I also like how you call a top100 gm player a diamond scrub.
you know ,people will not listen to us lol .i try as hard as i can + Show Spoiler +on kr server (mid - high master)
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On March 21 2012 05:06 nOondn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 01:10 yoigen wrote:On March 20 2012 07:12 Everlong wrote:On March 20 2012 07:00 yoigen wrote:
Really the only way to make mech work in TvP is Thor/Hellion/Raven/banshee/viking with some ghosts in my opinion, any tank based play will be absolutely destroyed by any competent protoss player. Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore, and that should be a good proof.
I don't see a problem with lategame toss, as long as you can secure gas income from 8 geysers you can mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of.
Here we go again, such a brilliant answer from our random diamond player that just throws it out there without thinking at all.. Have you ever watched a single pro game? How about those 2-3k gas floating late-game? Do you really think those guys would not go for your "mass ghost and viking with few bio support, which destorys pretty much every army a protoss can dream of."? Don't get me even started on "Even Goody doesn't use mech anymore".. Seriously, we've had a lot of bad, bad, baaad posts here exactly like yours.. edit: I'm sorry for being a bit too aggresive, but my god, just don't post random stuff unless you know what you are talking about.. It just ruins this otherwise creative discussion. This is why I usually never post on TL, yet the strategy forums. I played alot of mech in tvp and I eventually stopped doing it, as my opponents got better and played far more abusive. Of course you can sometimes throw out the eventual mechbuild, like JJajki did against Puzzle on daybreak once I think, and win with it. But I think those wins are rather because you either already win with some kind of hellion harass or because your opponent doesn't know how to deal with it and/or is surpised. Have you actually seen some progames? EmpireHappy took out players such as Creator, who probably is one of the most influential pvt players in the world, and MaNa, who is also known for very good pvt with massghost/viking. + Show Spoiler +I also like how you call a top100 gm player a diamond scrub. you know ,people will not listen to us lol .i try as hard as i can + Show Spoiler +on kr server (mid - high master) and fail so hard lol.They know how to play with mech,they don't let you comfortable to take the third/fourth easily or let you sit down and macro like a mad man without doing anything.
But the key thing here is that now you are in a possition, where the Protoss needs to do "something" or they are likely to lose or at least have a hard time fighting your army. Isn't that cool actualy to be in a situation similar to where Zerg was like year back desperately trying to defend 15 Hatch facing all kind of abusive strats? And guess what, they finally managed to get away with it - now you play against clock. Why don't try the same thing with Terran? I think this is interesting enough so we can leave this "I'm master/gm, so listen to me kid" thing.. Also, in Hots it's very likely that mech play will be explored completly so I don't think it's a waste of time trying new stuff..
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On March 21 2012 01:36 Lyyna wrote:
Well, you have to assume the protoss is playing well (always hard of course) to say 'ok he's going for proxy VR' or stuff like that, but you can really scout it in time . And i personnally always do the CC in base so the protoss cant see i canceled it. And my response will basically be (in terms of army) a 111 push with delayed tanks/banshee but a lots of marines.
Yeah, reactor marine is a really good opening. Basically the best if you don't want to be overgreedy (like with my 1 rax double gas CC) and don't feel the need to be super safe (111 expo)
Replay?
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Lyyna you should start keeping replays of you losing. That's a lot easier for us to learn and improve (no offense) your style and Mech in general.
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Any high masters / Grandmaster players who have had success with these kinds of mech builds TvP?
I really wonder if it will work when I use it. Last time I did it warp-prism and blink stalker harrass raped my whol experience with mech...
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@Crocodile : cant find any of it. Didn't laddered for past few days and i usually delete loosing rep to reduce my replay's folder size, so . . . I'll start mass laddering again,and save every replays then.
@ ZjiublingZ : Yeah, i'll save loosing rep too now
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On March 21 2012 06:28 Lyyna wrote:
@Crocodile : cant find any of it. Didn't laddered for past few days and i usually delete loosing rep to reduce my replay's folder size, so . . . I'll start mass laddering again,and save every replays then.
@ ZjiublingZ : Yeah, i'll save loosing rep too now
Don't worry, there are plenty of Tosses on ladder who love their Void Ray allins, I'm sure you'll get a chance soon enough.
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On March 21 2012 07:13 crocodile wrote:
You demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of the depth and complexity of how you scout and react in this game.
You just aren't factoring in relevant ability to scout and react. You can't just 'change your plan' if you already have your 1/1/1 up after expo and you realize he hasn't expanded by the 6:30-7 minute mark (this will be the case, I have tried this build).
Don't worry, there are plenty of Tosses on ladder who love their Void Ray allins, I'm sure you'll get a chance soon enough.
You can do a no gaz rax FE v VRallin and Its from progamer level.
Are you happy crocodile ? Stop insulting people!
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Interesting VOD Gyro. Nice find!
A friend is actually correcting my guide by the way. The first version will probably be up tomorrow
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On March 21 2012 11:25 Lyyna wrote:
Interesting VOD Gyro. Nice find!
A friend is actually correcting my guide by the way. The first version will probably be up tomorrow
NICEEEEE
Because of this VOD I start thinking maybe its very viable to FE with mech. Just make a second bunker in your base for precaution and scout for allin(protoss expo timing).
Lyyna, I start using your strat, and I some problem when I try to transition to BC. Can you focus on that part ?
btw: I would like a lyyna tvz guide after ! :D
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On March 21 2012 10:17 Gyro_SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 07:13 crocodile wrote:
You demonstrate a gross lack of understanding of the depth and complexity of how you scout and react in this game.
You just aren't factoring in relevant ability to scout and react. You can't just 'change your plan' if you already have your 1/1/1 up after expo and you realize he hasn't expanded by the 6:30-7 minute mark (this will be the case, I have tried this build).
Don't worry, there are plenty of Tosses on ladder who love their Void Ray allins, I'm sure you'll get a chance soon enough. You can do a no gaz rax FE v VRallin and Its from progamer level. Are you happy crocodile ? Stop insulting people!
I'm not just outright insulting you. I stated, giving reasonable support for my argument, that you clearly don't understand this game very well based on the advice you gave earlier in this thread. Whether or not you can find a pro replay of someone defending a VR allin with a 1 Rax gasless FE into 1/1/1 build does not take away from the complete lack of knowledge you displayed in your posts.
Do you want to know why Jinro held there? He incorporated a Reactor after 4 Marines (relatively early) and quick Siege Tanks and Siege Mode, while Socke's build was not optimized (it looked like he was going for a normal opener until he proxied the Void Ray and added gates 2 and 3) which allowed Jinro to get more Marines and tech out in time, and Jinro blindly threw up 2 Bunkers early, and it was a terrible map for a Void Ray allin, and Socke got supply blocked, and didn't use the pylon he built outside Jinro's main base to warp Zealots in to hit the mineral line and pull units from the front by the bunker, and he floated over 1000 resources.
During a 1 base allin, floating 1000 resources is absolutely utterly ridiculous. This was one of the worst executed Void Ray rushes I've ever seen, against an overly cautious Jinro, on a bad map, and it BARELY failed (it still took down the first bunker, meaning the only reason Jinro survived was because of the blind 2nd bunker). Socke made the ultimate mistake in Starcraft 2 which is focusing too much on micro when he should have been macroing (warping in Zealots or Stalkers). I don't even play Protoss, and I guarantee you I can beat you with a 3 gate VR allin if you go for the exact same build Jinro did on any ladder map.
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EPT
