EPTHow to Mech in TvP [D][G] - Page 23
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
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MarcH
United Kingdom362 Posts
I am going to look at replays in a moment but I wanted to ask what maps do people veto and how do you go about limiting the mobility of a Protoss as the times I have really felt Mech is good is when I'm not being agressive with my army but positioning myself in either a Threatening position forcing the P to react or a very good defensive position that prevents the Protoss from expanding while I am able to take additional bases (metal is great for this). Also I was wondering on the best ways to constrict space on more open maps as Tanks while good aren't great in small numbers and Planetary's aren't great unsupported is it something you try to do or Is it something that you just ignore as their are bigger worries (warp prism and blink being the biggest). | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 22 2012 07:15 MarcH wrote: So having skimmed through the thread I haven't seen much mention on maps in correlation to Mech TvP as whenever I have tried to Mech vs a P I have only really felt comfortable on 3 maps (though I am not the best player), Those being Metalopolis, Xel,Naga ( i know not relay relevant anymore) and Antiga. I am going to look at replays in a moment but I wanted to ask what maps do people veto and how do you go about limiting the mobility of a Protoss as the times I have really felt Mech is good is when I'm not being agressive with my army but positioning myself in either a Threatening position forcing the P to react or a very good defensive position that prevents the Protoss from expanding while I am able to take additional bases (metal is great for this). Also I was wondering on the best ways to constrict space on more open maps as Tanks while good aren't great in small numbers and Planetary's aren't great unsupported is it something you try to do or Is it something that you just ignore as their are bigger worries (warp prism and blink being the biggest). Actually I think Shakuras is a great mech map. Watch towers, the way expansions are laid out, It's just asking to be Half mapped into the great fortress of mech. as for Terrain Moding, Planetaries are great, you can't always fit them, Ghost academy make AWESOME walls, Big hp pool, sick repair rate, cheap, and fastest built building available to Terran, faster than Bunker Suppy depot, raxes, W/E | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 22 2012 07:15 MarcH wrote: So having skimmed through the thread I haven't seen much mention on maps in correlation to Mech TvP as whenever I have tried to Mech vs a P I have only really felt comfortable on 3 maps (though I am not the best player), Those being Metalopolis, Xel,Naga ( i know not relay relevant anymore) and Antiga. I am going to look at replays in a moment but I wanted to ask what maps do people veto and how do you go about limiting the mobility of a Protoss as the times I have really felt Mech is good is when I'm not being agressive with my army but positioning myself in either a Threatening position forcing the P to react or a very good defensive position that prevents the Protoss from expanding while I am able to take additional bases (metal is great for this). Also I was wondering once the best ways to constrict space on more open maps as Tanks while good aren't great in small numbers and Planetary's aren't great unsupported is it something you try to do or Is it something that you just ignore as their are bigger worries (warp prism and blink being the biggest). Only map in the current map pool that's tough for mech is taldarim. Shakuras, shattered, metal=great for split map. Cloud kingdom, korhal, entombed= great 3-4 base turtle, narrow engagement paths Also like I said before you float minerals with mech so barracks make great mobile chokes. Try it. | ||
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MarcH
United Kingdom362 Posts
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On Shakuras, as mentioned previously, you should wall off the middle with Planetaries or Orbitals and place your tanks behind them. On Shattered, you take your half of the map and place Planetaries/Sensor Towers/Turrets/Rax near the chokes on your side. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 22 2012 08:37 MarcH wrote: I've never been a fan of mech on Shattered and Shakuras as the middle is so open I feel like my army is to likely to be picked apart by a protoss just focusing all his army against a small portion of mine. Perhaps im playing it wrong or have a bad comp but I just never feel comfortable. ALso I do like the idea of using rax as mobile walls but I still feel like I would be too open to counterattacks on Cloud kingdom, Korhal and Entombed and that It could become very basetradey. What sort of unit comps are people using Im using a handful of Banshee's 5-8 at the most some vikings to deter any air play in small numbers and allow me to pick of WP's etc and the rest of my supply split between tank, thor hellion on a roughly 1-1-2 ish mix as a rough estimate of numbers I agree on Shattered, cross positions can be pretty scary to move out on, but I'm surprised you don't like close by air positions. I find that very easy to expand into the Protoss, good for Banshee harass, you can control the XNT in between you and him and shut down all Blink harass with a few tanks and ghost and Turrets. Whats you are on your third, you are 2 Tank hops away from his natural. Korhal I don't know, I struggle getting that third safely. It has to be a PF, and I still struggle with heavy 2 base Colossus / Blink Stalker armies. I saw in some games recently, some KR's either Ganzi or Rainbow streaming, they were taking their 3rd as the base above their main. I think it's a lot shorter of a distance to actually protect from the Blink Stalker / Colossus. It gives you a much shorter safer path than the natural third. Entombed is pretty good that way in close positions or even close by air a little bit. I don't like to get so many banshees, they aren't great eventually, you just can't keep up in upgrades. Go BC's and maybe get 1/1 if you want the Banshee effect in late game engagements. I don't know about the 'perfect' composition, but Lyyna has made some pretty crazy late game armies. | ||
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Troxle
United States486 Posts
I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight). Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly). | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense That kind of terran . . "Hey,let's try mech in TvP like i do it in TvZ" ( Y U NO MAKE GHOSTS? ) . . . "Omg it don't work mech is shit". And same for protoss side it seems . . . They see one or two bad mech attemps,then they come and say that mech don't work. | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
You have to scout, look if he got 2gaz and if he expo before 6min ect ... also look if he expo at 4min, because you'll not build extra def for nothing. VS VR allin: you do like jinro , you make marinebunker+tank+viking VS the blinkstalker allin: you can make fast thors VS 4gate: bunker+tank VS 4gate+warpprism: marine+tank+scv+viking VS Immo allin : you have to do 2port banshee, if possible make a viking and raven to snipe his observer. http://drop.sc/139745 + Show Spoiler + (in this game at beat the allin, after I had so many mineral but I didn't wanted to make barrack because I wanted to only mech, anyway its just for showing the concept. But I think its better banshee+marine 2base vs this allin) | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank. I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight). Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly). NOBODY IS ASKING IF MECH IS VIABLE. Nobody cares if you think mech is viable, nobody cares if you think Protoss blind counters mech with standard play. We are not discussing the viability of mech. Can you please please just read the thread and understand that we want to talk about HOW to mech, given that we're going to try it whether it's viable or not. And by the way, Marineking did it in Code S and DESTROYED Genius. You're so misinformed and disturbingly ignorant of what's actually going on in this thread it's not even funny. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 22 2012 11:13 Gyro_SC2 wrote: No gaz expo, double gaz into 1-1-1 is viable. Because its safe, I think its the best build for mech. You have to scout, look if he got 2gaz and if he expo before 6min ect ... also look if he expo at 4min, because you'll not build extra def for nothing. VS VR allin: you do like jinro , you make marinebunker+tank+viking VS the blinkstalker allin: you can make fast thors VS 4gate: bunker+tank VS 4gate+warpprism: marine+tank+scv+viking VS Immo allin : you have to do 2port banshee, if possible make a viking and raven to snipe his observer. http://drop.sc/139745 + Show Spoiler + (in this game at beat the allin, after I had so many mineral but I didn't wanted to make barrack because I wanted to only mech, anyway its just for showing the concept. But I think its better banshee+marine 2base vs this allin) This protoss allin hit you at the 9 minute mark. 9 minutes. For a 1 base allin. He missed production cycles. He micro'd awfully. And on top of that, after his initial attack, if he had warped in 4 Stalkers which he had the money for he would have rolled you, but because he was incredibly unbelievably terribly bad, he chose to fall back and expand despite being horribly behind. IT IS NOT VIABLE. Next time we're online at the same time, we can play and I'll beat you with any one base allin with my freaking off race to demonstrate this to you. Crocodile 703 | ||
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Illumynus
1 Post
 So, anyways, right to the topic... Ignoring tanks for a moment, I have been playing Mech TvP on and off since the patch before the BFH nerfs, but decided to hold off judgment whether or not it was viable, blah blah blah... And recently I got back into playing and decided to try it again. Of course, the replay is here: Replay! Just a little background: I'm a Mid Masters Terran, so my experience is just random samples from Masters ranging from High to Mid Masters... Never played a GM Toss with this... My opponent in this game was a rank 26 (ish) Protoss. I wanted to post this replay because I want to facilitate discussion on this no-tank composition. Rather than focusing on the viability at GSL levels, I've seen pretty good success with this around the High Masters level. Not sure if this is on account to the rarity of this kind of build, so maybe the surprise factor got the best of them. Ignoring the fact that he played... pretty awkwardly (1G 1Robo 2 more gates Expand, people still do this?) I let him max while I was max as well. And this was an almost exact harvester count (66 vs 69) battle so the army supply was generally the same. Although, he messed up BIG time on the final battle positioning, the supply count at the end of the fight was double. So what's my opening and theory behind this? - Well, a while back there was a post on TvP Mech with Thor Hellion Ghost and Viking if needed, and that post stated that he opened 2Rax pressure into expand. However, due to Protosses being relatively good at defending this, I decided to try 1-1-1 3 Hellion Drop into Expand. Do damage or not, the goal is to stay alive against various pushes the Toss may throw against you. After that expand, get an Armory and 2 more Factories. At that point, stay alive, max on 3 bases. So... it seems the past few posts have been worried about these Immortal all-ins and what not... and those usually hit... around 7:30-9min? By then, I have plenty of marines, bunkers, 1 siege tank (optional, get it if you want to feel extra safe) in my base. Adjust production based on the info from your drop. The only all-in I have died to was in a practice match with a friend who was also mid master protoss, and it was an awkward 2G 1Robo - 3 immortal, stalker, zealot, sentry bust. Generally, its an instant lose going against this. But I have survived 4 Gate, 4 Gate with Warp Prism in the back, Blink Stalkers (not all-in) and some weird immortal busts... You want to max with PLENTY of thors, plenty of hellions, ghosts, a raven or two, vikings if needed, and the occasional banshee or two if you choose to follow up the hellion drop with more harass. Upgrade ONLY vehicle armor, since Thors generally, in 2-4 volleys, will kill any Protoss unit, minus immortals w/ shield, collosus, any of those high hp count units. So here is where I shut up, because it feels like I've been rambling on forever. Check out the replay, and ask away! PS: I was trollin' on my friends account, so this isn't my main. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
On March 22 2012 09:29 Troxle wrote: I feel a lack of the Protoss side for this and as a Protoss I don't see mech work ever. I've had several Terran try mech on several different maps and Protoss blind counters it in standard Protoss versus Terran game play. The Mech death ball is very powerful when sieged, but not invincible. And even still, a Protoss won't let a Terran push out on the map if they keep tabs on the army. A good Protoss will expoit the forced splittin' of the Terran to defend. I've pushed INTO a Terran Siege Tank, Thor, Hellion, Raven, Banshee, Viking and Planetary defense with the Protoss death ball and CRUSHED the Terran army. Zealots tear through Siege Tanks and Thors like its nobodies business. Colossus decimate as well. Stalkers are the weak link, but if you watch most Protoss versus Terran at high levels, stalker counts have always been low. Charge Zealots and Colossus with a few Archons and High Templar for Psionic Storm is what most Protoss go for. The stalkers are used simply to clear Vikings and Medivacs. The Terran mech death ball is way to immobile. Zealots are way more beefy then marines, zerglins, banelings, roaches, and hydralisks which all crumble to siege tanks. I haven't even mentioned the Immortal that makes quick work of Siege Tanks like its nobodies business! Not only do they take squat for damage from a Siege Tank, they absolutely decimate Siege Tank after Siege Tank. I'm not sayin' this cannot work. I'm just sayin' this is a very, very bad build and with this match up already highly in Protoss favor; I would not advice mech in the match up. There is a reason you don't see it in GSL or when you do it fails miserable. I think it was MarineKing who tried it in Code S and I forget who he was against, but he got destroyed (I might not even have the Terran correct, but it was just a free win for the Protoss). And that is one of the more optimal maps in my opinion (the map was Dual Sight). Summary: Mech is blind countered by standard Protoss play. Even Marine Tank is bad (I can't even figure out how Puzzle lost to GuMiho last season...I think even I could have beaten GuMiho's Marine Tank, its just suboptimal versus Protoss). If you want to "mech" I'd suggest the 1-1-1 all-in be the closest thing you do. And more preferably the 1-1-2 as it is much harder for the Protoss to hold in my opinion (I just hate havin' to get a Stargate just to deal with the extra banshee production; the 1-1-2 is my worst nightmare in the Protoss versus Terran match up honestly). Here's the link buddy: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66855/?set=4&lang= Marineking owned Genius. | ||
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DelugeSC
United States96 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On March 22 2012 13:45 crocodile wrote: NOBODY IS ASKING IF MECH IS VIABLE. Nobody cares if you think mech is viable, nobody cares if you think Protoss blind counters mech with standard play. We are not discussing the viability of mech. Can you please please just read the thread and understand that we want to talk about HOW to mech, given that we're going to try it whether it's viable or not. And by the way, Marineking did it in Code S and DESTROYED Genius. You're so misinformed and disturbingly ignorant of what's actually going on in this thread it's not even funny. I have agreed with many of your previous posts, but not this one. I know the title is "how" to mech, but surely, in the middle of this discussion, people will of course sooner or later discuss the viability of mech...they are connected.. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy. The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too. The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P. | ||
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DelugeSC
United States96 Posts
On March 23 2012 02:53 architecture wrote: What an absurd thread, how can you discuss a strategy without discussing its viability. The fact is mech sucks, and in fact that the player that plays mech the most (Goody) has completely given it up TvP. If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy. The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too. The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P. I completely disagree with the mindset that viability shouldn't be in the discussion. It's mostly that people like you come in and say the same nonesense we've seen and rebuked over and over again. If a 200/200 Mechanical BC Ghost army can compete with a 200/200 Protoss army, it is viable. It is completely childish to say that it isn't because a pro gamer doesn't do it. This is still a new game and new strategies won't be brought to light without discussion, rather than "stop trying, the pro gamers did." NO! Bio play has just as many pitfalls IF NOT MORE than mech play. Bio is, frankly, fragile as shit. It melts under AOE. Terrans are not not not making the most of all the units available to them. HSMs are only now starting to be used; what would they do to a a Toss deathball? EMP + Tank is ruinous to a Protoss army. The evidence is right in front of you in the replays. It's being used in Master's to large successes. I can't stand you idiots just blindly naysaying based on pro gamers' playstyles. | ||
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Facultyadjutant
Sweden1876 Posts
On March 23 2012 02:53 architecture wrote: What an absurd thread, how can you discuss a strategy without discussing its viability. The fact is mech sucks, and in fact that the player that plays mech the most (Goody) has completely given it up TvP. If I made a thread about battlecruisers, of course the first question is how is it viable. I can't just be like, no I don't care if BC's are viable, I just want to talk about making them. Sure you can make the units, and yea you can even win games with mass BC's if the situation is right. But none of this has anything to do with its solidness as a strategy. The thing is that there's nothing impressive about mech against P. Mech is essentially completely tuned to support bio against Z, because of the slow rate of fire + burst dmg that one shots low hp Z. You can kind of see how this is completely useless against P. Any fight in a position (both spatially and temporally) that mech can win, bio can win too. The MKP game is an excellent demonstration of how poor mech is. With a significant army and econ advantage, the mech army could barely beat a gateway immortal army on open ground. The units just suck against P. Because you are hindering exploration, got nothing to lose and all to gain. God don't be one of those who have said countless things are never going to be viable and then they become standard. Let the spirit of taking steps forward lift you | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Get a friend, go to a custom map, and try out all the 200/200 compositions in fights. Fact is that mech barely breaks even in a straight up fight. I don't understand why people are willing to discount the fact that the one pro, who has played thousands of games and hours with mech, more than anyone in this thread, has stopped using it TvP. And then you come here and claim that there's something he hasn't explored. What a fucking joke. User was warned for this post | ||
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