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Im a high-platinum zerg and I have been having trouble with terrans who do marine tank (or any kind of tinfoil hat-turtle, but usually marine tank). I don't simply know how on earth am I supposed to kill that combo when the enemy controls it properly. I've heard and seen in replays to use ling bling mutalisk but I still can't win people who marine tank. Early game I usually get harassed by hellions followed my marine harass shit and finally marine tank. Even when my enemies don't execute it optimally I still lose 75% of my games vs. terrans assuming they don't fail horribly. Currently I only have one replay but I'll edit and add more if I get to play against marine tanking terrans more. I think the main problem with my play is that I don't know how to counterattack a terran who has bunkers, sieges and turrets left in his base when I don't have any roaches because I need all my larva for the lings and mutas.
Replay 1:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=250869
I managed to roll his army several times with mutalisk ling baneling and he goes on making marines and tanks and I roll his army a few more times but then I simply don't have anything left to counterattack with and I had to make a new army and a new push comes again and again and again until he finally survives my banelings with around 10 - 20 marines with my banes and lings dead and he just rolls my base and I try to save my base with new lings but it's already too late and even if I managed to defend the pushes would probably just have went on and on and on until I lose.
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Usually, I try to fight when he's not in siege with his tank don't wait he's above your base fight when you want, not when he decide, if you succes, you can kill a few tanks, after that, banelings are very good, some fungal growth are important for immoblize ennemy marines and then he can't split. Try to have infestors quickly. Also, try to kill the renforcements, let 20 slings between his base and his army, you can kill a lot of marines and then it's more easy to kill his army above your base. Try to split you banelings before the fight, coz' tank's splash damage is very effective against a pack of blings.
With All of that, I can win 80% of my games against terrans in Top Diamond 
PS : Sorry, my english is very bad, i hope you'll understand =)
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Disclaimer: I am not a professional player, nor am I especially good. This means that whatever I type here should be taken as advice given from a player who does not know a lot about the subject. (This player also isn't even a zerg player)
Engaging a Terran army is a difficult task and before running in to kill it you should consider what he has.
-Is his army marine heavy?
If his army is marine heavy then you should add more banelings to your army. Banelings absolutely destroy clumped groups of marines and force the Terran player to micro the marines away.
Time marines spend running means time marines spend not shooting. While his marines are running, surround and kill his tanks with zerglings.
-Does he have alot of tanks?
If he has a lot of tanks you'll want to try to stack your mutas and snipe them while he leap frogs them toward where ever hes pushing. This is of course assuming he has no thors.
If he isn't terrible at engaging he'll target fire your banelings and split his marines. A lot of banelings tend to be ineffective against a lot of tanks so instead you should make tons of zerglings with a few banelings mixed in to force the marines away.
On another note, tons of banelings are surprisingly effective against tanks- provided they aren't clumped up.
You'll notice that as his army gets bigger and scarier Muta/ling/bling just won't cut it anymore. Infestors are extremely good at killing marines and broodlords force tanks to unsiege.
Setting up to attack-
When attacking into Terran army you should consider a few factors...
-Is he/she sieged?
-Do I have enough?
If he/she is sieged and even if he/she isn't sieged you should split your zerglings and banelings before attack moving into his or her army. Also, if you see the Terran moving out send a group of lings out of your base and around the side to set up a flank. These two will minimize the damage you take from splash and limit the amount of marine micro he or she can utilize.
If you don't have enough, don't engage. Instead, be patient and wait until you do have enough.
Watching your replay I noticed that you didn't 15 hatch. Don't be afraid of a two rax and be greedy! Just don't play too greedy. You also made a large round of zerglings early in the game, unless you're going all in you can defend reactor hellions with a single spine crawler and 1-2 queens. (Be sure to scout his/her follow up though.)
-20 zerglings equals +10 drones.
- I'm sorry, I typed this before I saw you attempted a baneling bust.
A strong early game economy is key to having enough stuff to kill Terran pushes. Baneling busting his front door and not dealing damage put you behind him economically, 22 Drones to 25 SCVs + Mules. I also feel like you stayed on two bases for too long. His first army should have dealt a lot more damage but he didn't engage properly.
I don't think you should use this replay as an example because you were behind from 6:40 and floating 2.5k minerals by 16:00.
Try building a macro hatchery to help spend all that extra money. 2.5k Minerals = A lot of zerglings = Dead Terran army and a lot of Zerg units.
I really think your macro lost you that game. Your Terran opponent engaged terrible almost every time but you didn't have enough production to capitalize.
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Sorry if this doesn't help you, I wrote most of it before watching your replay.
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Streaming my response + replay anaylsis right now: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/HardCorey
VOD: http://www.twitch.tv/hardcorey23/b/306275480
Consensus: You need to CAPITALIZE on your victories. You had one big trade early on that went in your favor, and that is the time to expo and deny their expos. You dont need to win right then you can get up to 2 or even 3 bases ahead of a terran. You continued to trade banelings for marines and eventually once the terran had 3/3 marines it doesn;t matter because those melt through ling bling muta pretty well especially with good tank spread.
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On January 23 2012 06:32 Yuna wrote:
Disclaimer: I am not a professional player, nor am I especially good. This means that whatever I type here should be taken as advice given from a player who does not know a lot about the subject. (This player also isn't even a zerg player)
Engaging a Terran army is a difficult task and before running in to kill it you should consider what he has.
-Is his army marine heavy?
If his army is marine heavy then you should add more banelings to your army. Banelings absolutely destroy clumped groups of marines and force the Terran player to micro the marines away.
Time marines spend running means time marines spend not shooting. While his marines are running, surround and kill his tanks with zerglings.
-Does he have alot of tanks?
If he has a lot of tanks you'll want to try to stack your mutas and snipe them while he leap frogs them toward where ever hes pushing. This is of course assuming he has no thors.
If he isn't terrible at engaging you he'll target fire your banelings and split his marines. A lot of banelings tend to be ineffective against a lot of tanks so instead you should make tons of zerglings and just swarm him with a few banelings to force the marines away.
You'll notice that as his army gets bigger and scarier Muta/ling/bling just won't cut it anymore. Infestors are extremely good at killing marines and broodlords force tanks to unsiege.
Setting up to attack-
When attacking into Terran army you should consider a few factors...
-Is he/she sieged?
-Do I have enough?
If he/she is sieged and even if he/she isn't sieged you should split your zerglings and banelings before attack moving into his or her army. Also, if you see the Terran moving out send a group of lings out of your base and around the side to set up a flank. These two will minimize the damage you take from splash and limit the amount of marine micro he or she can utilize.
If you don't have enough, don't engage. Instead, be patient and wait until you do have enough.
Watching your replay I noticed that you didn't 15 hatch. Don't be afraid of a two rax and be greedy! Just don't play too greedy. You also made a large round of zerglings early in the game, unless you're going all in you can defend reactor hellions with a single spine crawler and 1-2 queens. (Be sure to scout his/her follow up though.)
-20 zerglings equals +10 drones.
- I'm sorry, I typed this before I saw you attempted a baneling bust.
A strong early game economy is key to having enough stuff to kill Terran pushes. Baneling busting his front door and not dealing damage put you behind him economically, 22 Drones to 25 SCVs + Mules. I also feel like you stayed on two bases for too long. His first army should have dealt a lot more damage but he didn't engage properly.
I don't think you should use this replay as an example because you were behind from 6:40 and floating 2.5k minerals by 16:00.
Try building a macro hatchery to help spend all that extra money. 2.5k Minerals = A lot of zerglings = Dead Terran army and a lot of Zerg units.
I really think your macro lost you that game. Your Terran opponent engaged terrible almost every time but you didn't have enough production to capitalize.
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Sorry if this doesn't help you, I wrote most of it before watching your replay.
thanks for the awesome reply.
Also, what is the point of making mutalisks vs. marine tank if im going to send the lings in before the tanks are dead? are the mutas there to force the marines and thors?
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Mutalisks give you control of the map. If you control them properly they force the terran to put up turrets and also makes them feel like they're stuck in their base.
They're also really good at sniping tanks if there are no thors and add-ons to disrupt production.
On another note, if you don't want to go Mutalisks- don't.
Mass upgraded lings are really potent against early marine/tank pushes.
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I honestly prefer getting 4 bases and fast-teching to brood lords as soon as i can, even 3 brood lords can make the tanks fire upon themselves, turning the tide of a battle, while roaches and lings can get the surround and finish it off.
Thats my take on it, throwing in infestors is also fun, infested terrans having a similar effect 
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First of all I must say that I absolutely "love" your agressive play style. For what it's worth I think you could have droned up more behind it and scouted earlyer at like 13 supply to possibly spot any super-early-agression.
I've looked through the entire replay and wish I could give some constructive advice. To me it lookslike that you did not lose to his marine-tank army composition but to production capability. I'm sorry. It might have helped if you expanded more agressively after deflecting his first attack and when flying around with your muta's.
Added to the superior production capability and income he was also ahead in terms of upgrades, 3/3 marines vs 2/1 ling/bling and 2/0 muta just doesn't seem to cut it. It's quite amazing how strong marines are with medivac support!
I'm only silver but I hope I've been able to help somewhat.
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your build order was basically a 1 base baneling bust with an additional hatch at your natural. The extra hatch greatly weakened your attack and is the main reason why your bust failed.
If you are going for such an aggressive/ all in opening you need to commit to it in order for it to succeed. The 300 minerals should be spent on lings. You could've easily overwhelmed your opponent since he was teching.
After your bust failed, you were instantly behind and any other issues that people have posted above just added to your problem.
Either go 1 base baneling properly and commit to the attack or go econ with a 15 hatch.
I also don't believe this is a good replay to analyze your marine tank due to your build order issues. What ever happened later in the game is basically irrelevant due to this initial issue.
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On January 23 2012 06:53 HardCorey wrote:Streaming my response + replay anaylsis right now: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/HardCoreyVOD: http://www.twitch.tv/hardcorey23/b/306275480Consensus: You need to CAPITALIZE on your victories. You had one big trade early on that went in your favor, and that is the time to expo and deny their expos. You dont need to win right then you can get up to 2 or even 3 bases ahead of a terran. You continued to trade banelings for marines and eventually once the terran had 3/3 marines it doesn;t matter because those melt through ling bling muta pretty well especially with good tank spread.
Watched the VOD. I really like the way how you help people here at teamliquid! Also some really good advice you had there. I guess I just need to expo more in long games like that since most of my long games end in a similar way (Me not going more than 4 bases). Also when you said that I didn't "roll" his army, when I used "rolling" the term was a bit off and I meant that I simply managed to defend his attacks to the point where he doesnt have a huge force left to attack with anymore. I guess with more upgrades, tech and larvae (from additional bases) I would be much better in long lasting games.
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I am a plat T, I usually win against plat Z or diamond Z, and I was a plat Z before.
Globally, I saw your replay and :
- Your third was extremely late (some players take a third @4:45 in ZvT, yours came at 14 min, even after a bust, it s wayyyy too late)
- Your minerals were flowing and you lacked gas, you need 3 bases pumping gas if you want to play bling / mutalisk
- Hive tech is essential in ZvT, and should happen relatively quickly (around 15 mins)
A bust can work against T but you won't be able to be strong in this matchup with bust because when it fails you re going to be wrecked and struggle to eventually lose
ZvT is a story of trade, you have to do trades that make you win, even if you lose most of your forces, the idea is to lose the less gas possible in each trade to be able to quickly go T3 and broodlords / ultralisk
Your focus should be :
- Droning up
- Expanding
- Defend
- Tech up
- Go T3
Mutalisk / Bling / ling is a deadly combo however it requires a lot of multitask in order to be able to harass + macro. Harassing with mutalisk, you want to not lose them and pin down the terran, preventing or delaying the 3rd (your goal is not to destroy SCVs if you can't, just to pin the terran army and delay Terran third)
Terran with 3 base will be able to have any army he wants, and you don't want to face tons of ghost, thors, tanks, rines.
This is the global idea of the matchup
However, in platinum, you will win just by having a solid macro : get a natural expand, defend it with spines, drone like crazy, get your third quickly, and massling. Just put a zergling at his natural and see when he moves out for his push.
When he moves out, you want to have a lot of glings and fight outside your base when he is unsieged. You will lose all your gling but you will do damage, enough to warn him or to be able to counter him. And by the time, your economy is still flowing etc...
Blings are not essential. They cost a lot of vespene and are not easy to manage effectively, even if they have huge DPS.
What I did when I was Z, and what is the most hard for me to counter as a T now is :
- fast expand
- 3rd hatch@natural for macro
- lots of drone, only 2 gas and the others at minerals
- lots of gling before the push (basically before 9 / 10 mins)
- gling 1 / 1
- lair & gas up
- some mutas (not a lot...)
- third base
- at 14 / 15 mins, tier 3 and either ultras or bloodlords
I tend to like ultras more because when they come @16:00 or whatever, you won't meet any single plat T having an army able to kill them, while broodlords take more time
Btw, have a solid eco AND spend your money. Build units. Lings should be a huge mineral sink. You should have 110 / 120 supply at 10 / 11 mins and overwhelm every army you encounter ensieged
Have fun
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I am same league as you and find z V t to be my easiest matchup if it reaches mid-late game.
You can perform huge tech switches, he can't.
Personally I go ling/bling with a few mutas to force tower spam and then use the mutas to stop additional expos+dropships.
Infestors really depend on the proportion of marines to tanks. If a lot of marines then infestors become more viable.
I normally play this matchup with aggressive trading and then a sudden tech switch into ultralisk. If you get a lot of them at once and have your cavern hidden (with the +2 armor..essential), it will destroy the terran as you can just keep reinforcing your push with more speedlings as units die. Ultras are actually the supporting unit, they tank for your cracklings to do damage, too many people think they are the main unit which they are not.
As long as I make 6+ ultras and got 200/200 army, this tactic has never failed me in platinum. Constantly pouring in new cracklings whilst you still have ultras on the field is the lynchpin to the tactic and shouldn't be neglected.
If you somehow fail the push (is that even possible?) he will either have to build the counter, weakening his army to your trading force of blings/lings (and you can rebuild mutas if he spams out maurders) or you will push him into the dirt by constantly overrunning him.
As a mid-league zerg tech switches are your most potent weapon.
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yep
Survive
Pump ultras before 17 / 18 mins
PROFIT !
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Well, if it helps anyone, my zvt build..
This is considering that the terran went hellion opener as it stated.
The thing about hellion openner is that most terran expand while they are making hellions asuming they will have map controrl. Or so they can have strronger army i suppose. In about 5:40 they might have about 2~4 hellions and maybe 2 marines. So I tend to go VERY aggressive with terran early games so to weaken or delay their timing attack or army size.
My build!
14 hatchery
15~16 pool depends on my coin flop.
15~16 gas
16~17 overlords
1 zerglings
2 queens
(first 100 gas is for speedling)
Then i drone up unitl 4:30, i make roach warren. (asuming i scouted the reactor factory)
While making roach warren, make sure u have 2 overlords over your food since u will be making 6~7 roaches.
When your roaches are half done, bring the queen from main base to block ramp and a spine crawler near the ramp to support. The hellions should be coming soon.
ATTACK with your roaches into terran natural poke in their wall but dont try to break down the wall if u cant!!
(While u are sending and attacking with roaches you should be droning up evenly main-natural)
And just camp at the terran natual until u have about 38ish drones. 2 gas 16 drones each base.
Then make all lings to attack natural only!! with roaches.
(while u are droning up u may have to pull back your roaches cause they will come at your roaches!)
dont trty to fight them, just leave! u already delayed their expand :D
well, thats my early zvt game IF they go hellion openning!!
any questions or comments let me know!
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I watched you'r replay, im an hig plat zerg.
That said, let's get to it!
You went for a bling bust, witch sure can win you games, but if the terran scouts it and does the propper response (wall-of and putt up bunkers) you'll end up behind by a large amount. So what i would recomend opening wise would be some kind of more "standard" 15 hatch build and as other people have said in this post dont be afraid of bunker ruches if you just send you'r second or 3d overlord to you'r natural you'll en up scouting it in time to send drones to defend.
On another note i'd say that you need to drone harder, in the begining you'll lose some games that just looks silly but you'll benefit from it greatly once you get the hang of it. At around 14 min mark you should be at around 70-75 ish drones, and if you feel that you can't produce enought (floting 2-3k minerals) don't be afraid to put down some macro hatches, you need the production capabilety! Oh and try to allways stay 1 base up on your opponent!
Allso try to deny his expos by sending lings around his tank line and hit the expo and also when you fly you'r mutas around to harras try to fly over the most resonable next expo ( if they are reasonably close to what you'r aiming at harrasing) all the time to keep it checked and hopfully catch him off guard.
Get hive tech faster! When he gets up a certan amount of momentum you'll need broods to break his sige lines!
That's all i cud think of, hope it helps!
ZERG FIGHTING!!!
~RedApril
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On January 23 2012 23:30 Marsunpaisti wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 06:53 HardCorey wrote:Streaming my response + replay anaylsis right now: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/HardCoreyVOD: http://www.twitch.tv/hardcorey23/b/306275480Consensus: You need to CAPITALIZE on your victories. You had one big trade early on that went in your favor, and that is the time to expo and deny their expos. You dont need to win right then you can get up to 2 or even 3 bases ahead of a terran. You continued to trade banelings for marines and eventually once the terran had 3/3 marines it doesn;t matter because those melt through ling bling muta pretty well especially with good tank spread. Watched the VOD. I really like the way how you help people here at teamliquid! Also some really good advice you had there. I guess I just need to expo more in long games like that since most of my long games end in a similar way (Me not going more than 4 bases). Also when you said that I didn't "roll" his army, when I used "rolling" the term was a bit off and I meant that I simply managed to defend his attacks to the point where he doesnt have a huge force left to attack with anymore. I guess with more upgrades, tech and larvae (from additional bases) I would be much better in long lasting games.
Glad it helped man. This is a project I am working on called HardCorey Question Time where I go on the strategy forums and do full response by stream to anyone who posts a thought out question with a replay.
Yeah and about rolling I generally think of that as you just roll over their whole army with most of yours left afterward although it is up to interpretation. or maybe just banelings with speed so theyre rolling haha. I think the tech/bases ended up being the biggest issue as you mentioned, at least for this specific game.
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Norway10161 Posts
I renamed your thread. Please follow the strategy forum guidelines in the future.
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The problem with banelings in this situation is that you're trading gas for minerals. Honestly, if the splits are decent, banelings aren't even that mineral-efficient versus marines, nevermind the gas. Let's pretend you hit two marines with shield. You've killed 100 minerals of stuff in exchange for 100 minerals/50 gas. Even if you kill 4 marines in a clump with two banelings, I still consider that trade poor.
Something I have found really slows down these pushes and lets you get a better handle on the situation is baneling landmines. Don't overdo it, you don't need to blow up his entire army, but force him to be respectful of the situation. It really slows the push itself, and forces a lot of scans or a raven, which slows down all the subsequent pushes. Even if just one goes off and takes out 5 or so marines.
Or, alternatively, consider a different composition. Maybe fewer, spread out, banelings are more effective than many. More zerglings, fewer, better controlled, banelings might be the correct answer.
And in my experience, versus marines, fast armor ups make a huge huge difference in the fight, especially for zerglings.
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There was a guide about ZvT somewhere by a master Z, it was easy to follow and very efficient. He did not use banelings at all and explained the reasons very well.
Banelings cost : 50 / 25 for 0.5 supply. That makes 100 / 50 for 1 supply... The most expensive single unit of the game. Think about it...
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On January 23 2012 06:32 Yuna wrote:
You'll notice that as his army gets bigger and scarier Muta/ling/bling just won't cut it anymore. Infestors are extremely good at killing marines and broodlords force tanks to unsiege.
I agree with the vast majority of your post, and it was very well thought out and helpful.
With that said, I don't agree with the above quoted excerpt. If the opponent is sticking to Marines/Tanks with no thors, I find it quite easy to win with just Ling/Bling/Muta. Every now and then I will sprinkle in infestors just for fun, but I don't really find it all that necessary.
Blings force the marines to retreat while the lings and mutas decimate the tanks. Your mutas should also be extremely active, denying dropes, harrassing mineral lines, destroying reactors/tech labs, picking off stray tanks, and whatever else they can get their grubby glaive worms on. If you stay active with your Mutas and stay up on your upgrades for ling/bling, you should be able to handle any amount of marines/tank quite easily.
EDIT: In response to this:
On January 24 2012 05:29 DePHIB wrote:
There was a guide about ZvT somewhere by a master Z, it was easy to follow and very efficient. He did not use banelings at all and explained the reasons very well.
Banelings cost : 50 / 25 for 0.5 supply. That makes 100 / 50 for 1 supply... The most expensive single unit of the game. Think about it...
I am also a master zerg (was ranked 2700 in the world, but have been off racing a bit and fallen to around 8000) and while I have seen some blingless builds, I think they are basically a necessity for certain terran builds. Not saying that the build is always bad, but saying banelings are bad because they are the "Most expensive unit in the game" based soley on their supply cost is a bit silly. Just think of the amount of resources/supply worth of units you can decimate with just a few banelings. They are certainly worth the investment against BIO builds, especially if the pushes are coming before infestor tech.
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EPT
