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United States8477 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely?
Sure you can skip the 2nd forge but then you're doing a different build with different timings. Also, if you decide to throw up additional gates instead of the extra forge to hold off early pushes such as the common stim/ghost push, your gates most likely won't be done in time. Truthfully, if you're heading for the infrastructure of an early robo into 2 forges into a twilight, I don't see much benefit of delaying the 2nd forge.
On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes.
I highly advise against getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop.
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On January 13 2012 07:32 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. I highly advise getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop.
One quick question: is this a typo? Do you mean you advise against getting a forge, or do you mean only getting one forge?
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United States8477 Posts
On January 13 2012 07:38 snively wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:32 NrGmonk wrote:On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. I highly advise getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop. One quick question: is this a typo? Do you mean you advise against getting a forge, or do you mean only getting one forge?
Yea, against
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ok thanks, makes more sense now 
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I've been doing this build since artosis wrote about it on his blog.
The only thing I die to is if the terran moves out with his first two medivacs and he drops in the back while attacking in the front. Any suggestion?
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On January 13 2012 08:25 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:38 snively wrote:On January 13 2012 07:32 NrGmonk wrote:On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. I highly advise getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop. One quick question: is this a typo? Do you mean you advise against getting a forge, or do you mean only getting one forge? Yea, against
Do you rely on your observers then to deal with banshee play? I used to get the single forge when I did the Huk 20 nexus build as my preferred one, 1 cannon in each mineral line to stop banshees swinging round and getting workers etc. That said that is a very early Nexus so perhaps the economic advantage kicks in soon enough to justify that extra infrastructure?
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United States8477 Posts
On January 14 2012 21:33 UmbeXCII wrote:
I've been doing this build since artosis wrote about it on his blog.
The only thing I die to is if the terran moves out with his first two medivacs and he drops in the back while attacking in the front. Any suggestion?
Post a replay.
Without a replay, I'd say use stalkers to stop the drops while you position your zealot/sentry at your front to deflect frontal attacks.
On January 14 2012 21:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:25 NrGmonk wrote:On January 13 2012 07:38 snively wrote:On January 13 2012 07:32 NrGmonk wrote:On January 13 2012 06:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote:
Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. I highly advise getting a forge at all unless you're 100% sure he's on 2 base as I've stated in my guide. You really need the extra 150 minerals to hold off things such as a marine/tank push at 7:20 or hellion/marine drop. One quick question: is this a typo? Do you mean you advise against getting a forge, or do you mean only getting one forge? Yea, against Do you rely on your observers then to deal with banshee play? I used to get the single forge when I did the Huk 20 nexus build as my preferred one, 1 cannon in each mineral line to stop banshees swinging round and getting workers etc. That said that is a very early Nexus so perhaps the economic advantage kicks in soon enough to justify that extra infrastructure?
Yes, I rely on observers versus banshee.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 14 2012 23:42 WaZ wrote:
2 cannons at your front
cool story
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i'm high diamond but I'd like to see some replays master players.
i think i'm having some hiccups with my play here and there.
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[QUOTE]On December 08 2011 04:35 NrGmonk wrote:
[*]Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech.
I know this is probably beyond the scope of this build but do you have any suggestions on a style to play vs mech? All I can think of is mass immortals 
For example, I have been against a unit composition of marines/thor/cloaked banshee/raven and always die to it. I normally go for the standard zealot heavy, sentry, stalker, colossus with maybe a couple HT.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 19 2012 12:57 bankai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 04:35 NrGmonk wrote:
[*]Mech play: There are simply better styles versus mech. You can keep one forge, but armor isn’t that useful versus mech. I know this is probably beyond the scope of this build but do you have any suggestions on a style to play vs mech? All I can think of is mass immortals For example, I have been against a unit composition of marines/thor/cloaked banshee/raven and always die to it. I normally go for the standard zealot heavy, sentry, stalker, colossus with maybe a couple HT.
I do vastly different responses to different types of mech, marine tank, hellion tank, marine thor, marine thor banshee, mass air. Really depends on the exact unit comp. Vs marine/thor/choaked banshee/raven, I pretty much do exactly what Parting did vs Nada in the GSL vs that. Blink with 1 forge into chargelot templar immortal.
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finally got around to reading this. great guide, monk!
edit: sick reference section. can't wait to watch all them vods
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I find engaging in the late game is unreasonably difficult and that its best to turtle up with cannons and HT"s and deny as many terrran expansions as possible.
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United States8477 Posts
On January 22 2012 16:51 AGIANTSMURF wrote:
I find engaging in the late game is unreasonably difficult and that its best to turtle up with cannons and HT"s and deny as many terrran expansions as possible.
What does this have to do with this guide? O_O
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This is a great guide! I'm finding it a lot easier not dying to pushes from Terran, than when I was going for a fast Colossus!
One thing I had to note was that I never seem to get to scout my opponent in time (with my observer, damn thing is so slow  ) to deviate from the set timings that you posted (up until twilight council at least), is that just something I might get fortunate with on smaller maps, or am I doing something wrong?
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United States8477 Posts
On January 22 2012 18:47 Chelch wrote:This is a great guide! I'm finding it a lot easier not dying to pushes from Terran, than when I was going for a fast Colossus! One thing I had to note was that I never seem to get to scout my opponent in time (with my observer, damn thing is so slow ) to deviate from the set timings that you posted (up until twilight council at least), is that just something I might get fortunate with on smaller maps, or am I doing something wrong?
Don't follow that particular set of times so much. Even a minute divergence shouldn't matter too much. The particular game I took those times from was a game when the Protoss scouted FE and bio from the Terran before he took the gas.
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Thanks! I am really looking forward to using this later!
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I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
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EPT
