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Italy12246 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
I am miles below you (low master ish), but if i do scout a fast third (9-10 ish minutes) i find i can get a faster colossus delaying gates 4-6 and then 2base allin when 2/2, 2 ranged colossi and charge (i skip blink) finish, much like Tyler used to do when double forge builds first became popular. I suppose you could also do something similar if you go for storm instead of colossus.
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On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
I was playing a bunch of practice games yesterday with a clanmate and he was doing the same thing (fast 3rd cc, double engi), and it is simply terrans playing off the protoss' passivity with this double forge build. It kind of opened my eyes a bit on having to mix in some 6/7 gate pushes to punish this, especially vs gasless 1-rax FEs and/or on maps with wide open naturals.
The other option that I haven't experimented with but have seen some pros start doing more and more regularly is the fast 3rd Nexus. Since I haven't really played around with it much I have no idea how safe/unsafe it is however, but it would effectively match the terran in economy if not surpass it. I really do not feel simply getting a slightly earlier 3rd after your obs scouts the 3rd CC is a good "counter" because of mules and the fact they will have a lot more workers than you from those 3 CC. It may be the best reaction for this particular build if you already laid down both forges but it is clearly not optimal.
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I think you should use food ranges instead of time, what happens if you lose a bunch of probes or units, do you still do everything at the same game time, delays in things will cause delays in other things be varying degrees.
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If you lose a bunch of probes/units you won't have the same food as you would if you were untouched and wanted to do a timing attack off that food number. If you're looking to do timing attacks it should be based off of when things finish, i.e. after my 2nd observer I build x or I attack, or when my 5th gateway is finished I start.... things like that.
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On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem.
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On January 25 2012 02:04 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? I was playing a bunch of practice games yesterday with a clanmate and he was doing the same thing (fast 3rd cc, double engi), and it is simply terrans playing off the protoss' passivity with this double forge build. It kind of opened my eyes a bit on having to mix in some 6/7 gate pushes to punish this, especially vs gasless 1-rax FEs and/or on maps with wide open naturals. The other option that I haven't experimented with but have seen some pros start doing more and more regularly is the fast 3rd Nexus. Since I haven't really played around with it much I have no idea how safe/unsafe it is however, but it would effectively match the terran in economy if not surpass it. I really do not feel simply getting a slightly earlier 3rd after your obs scouts the 3rd CC is a good "counter" because of mules and the fact they will have a lot more workers than you from those 3 CC. It may be the best reaction for this particular build if you already laid down both forges but it is clearly not optimal.
Yeah, super-greedy Terran has pushed me away from double forge builds (I've been experimenting with builds to try to pressure T because I've grown tired of defending all the time), but I'm wondering if other people have had the same problems against Terrans going double-expand double-upgrade, and if they've come across an adjustment from the double forge opening that works well.
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On January 25 2012 04:00 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem.
Care to outline a general tech path with that fast 3rd? I used to go for a fast third in PvT a long time ago, but gave up on it because it seemed that if I went for blink/charge, I'd die to drops, and if I went for colossus/storm, I'd die to straight attacks.
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On January 25 2012 04:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 02:04 Skyro wrote:On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? I was playing a bunch of practice games yesterday with a clanmate and he was doing the same thing (fast 3rd cc, double engi), and it is simply terrans playing off the protoss' passivity with this double forge build. It kind of opened my eyes a bit on having to mix in some 6/7 gate pushes to punish this, especially vs gasless 1-rax FEs and/or on maps with wide open naturals. The other option that I haven't experimented with but have seen some pros start doing more and more regularly is the fast 3rd Nexus. Since I haven't really played around with it much I have no idea how safe/unsafe it is however, but it would effectively match the terran in economy if not surpass it. I really do not feel simply getting a slightly earlier 3rd after your obs scouts the 3rd CC is a good "counter" because of mules and the fact they will have a lot more workers than you from those 3 CC. It may be the best reaction for this particular build if you already laid down both forges but it is clearly not optimal. Yeah, super-greedy Terran has pushed me away from double forge builds (I've been experimenting with builds to try to pressure T because I've grown tired of defending all the time), but I'm wondering if other people have had the same problems against Terrans going double-expand double-upgrade, and if they've come across an adjustment from the double forge opening that works well.
I mentioned this in that other thread that you made (I think that was you) about mid-game PvT timings, but I feel the double forge style is still ok on certain maps vs gasless 1-rax FEs by going twilight before robo and getting a faster (~9 min) Blink. Using your first Obs you can blink into their main and do quite a bit of damage if they went for a super greedy 3 CC style, essentially equalizing the game if not pulling ahead outright. This is particularly effective on maps like Antiga and Metal. You also have the option of just skipping the forges and going for more gates and utilizing warp-ins from a low-ground pylon for a more all-in version.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem?
I'll tell you Creator's response to this. This happened to him in Creator vs ? in the KSL on Daybreak. The "?" is because I don't remember who he played against. Double expand + double upgrade is an extremely blind "soft" counter to this build. If you get double ups that early, you won't be able to survive things such as colossi allins. Anyways, his response is to take a 3rd immediately before gates 4-6. Then, throw down robo bay and gates 4-6 before the 2nd immortal. The biggest mistake people make is overestimating the Terran's army between around 10 mins and 14 mins and then underestimating it after that. The terran won't be able to pressure you so you can cut a lot of units before 14 mins. However, after that time range, you will be in a huge supply deficit, so you need some form of AoE to cover for that. Also, because of the extremely delayed starport after 3rd cc and double eng bay, he'll have trouble making both enough medivac/viking. He can make a 2nd starport, but that's assuming he scouts colossi in time.
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Yeah, that's pretty similar to what I've been doing. I've still been crushed pretty much every time I've happened into that BO draw, but I also don't have a lot of practice in the situation and I'm sure I'm not doing it optimally.
Anyway, it seems like double expand + double upgrade is a pretty decent counter to this double forge style. It's playable for P (not like skipping robo vs cloaked banshees), but I think T should win if both sides play equally well.
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On January 25 2012 01:41 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? I am miles below you (low master ish), but if i do scout a fast third (9-10 ish minutes) i find i can get a faster colossus delaying gates 4-6 and then 2base allin when 2/2, 2 ranged colossi and charge (i skip blink) finish, much like Tyler used to do when double forge builds first became popular. I suppose you could also do something similar if you go for storm instead of colossus.
What are the reasons for Creator not doing this?
I just want to generate discussion on the idea of calling the Terran on HIS greed. It seems this soft counter is based on being even greedier than the toss and that should open a window to call him on this right?
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It takes a long time to get 2/2, range, charge and 3 colossi, and the attack is pretty all-in since you can't expand behind it well (or you get picked apart by drops). Terran's starport tech is delayed, but that attack is late enough that Terran should have a couple medivacs and vikings and they should be able to defend.
The double forge build sacrifices the timing window where the double expand Terran is weakest, so P takes a BO disadvantage.
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On January 25 2012 04:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 04:00 iamke55 wrote:On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem. Care to outline a general tech path with that fast 3rd? I used to go for a fast third in PvT a long time ago, but gave up on it because it seemed that if I went for blink/charge, I'd die to drops, and if I went for colossus/storm, I'd die to straight attacks.
if you cannon your front while going for storm you can usually hold off an attack with archons and cannons, assuming you get some good forcefields and you deflected terran harrassment well. i'll try to find the VODs for the games that brought me to this conclusion.
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So is there a tell that should signal that the T is going that in time to deviate?
and
Is there a tell in our build that the Terran can spot early enough that he can reactivly do the fast 3d + double eng?
IF the answer is no to both then it is a true soft counter that can only be done blindly or for reasons other than a reactive play.
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On January 25 2012 10:29 vaderseven wrote:
So is there a tell that should signal that the T is going that in time to deviate?
and
Is there a tell in our build that the Terran can spot early enough that he can reactivly do the fast 3d + double eng?
IF the answer is no to both then it is a true soft counter that can only be done blindly or for reasons other than a reactive play.
Terrans 3rd expand can be read from when they take their 3rd gas. if they take their third gas quickly, they will end up expanding a full minute later. so if you can try to deny as much scouting until you notice them getting their third gas, that gives you time to keep ahead of their third. the only ways i can think of this are really nice forcefields, or very very strong stalker micro, to push back marines and catch scouts.
similar to the way dragoons w/ range are used in PvT in BW, but less forgiving because of the lack of range upgrade.
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On January 25 2012 04:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 04:00 iamke55 wrote:On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem. Care to outline a general tech path with that fast 3rd? I used to go for a fast third in PvT a long time ago, but gave up on it because it seemed that if I went for blink/charge, I'd die to drops, and if I went for colossus/storm, I'd die to straight attacks.
I've seen hero/mc do this recently.
In the first replay hero does a standardish 1gate expand, and drops a twilight instead of robo and goes for blink with ~8min 3rd.
http://drop.sc/97332 Hero
Here mc opens nexus first into 4gate, 9minute third into 8gate, then gets all his tech shortly after
http://drop.sc/94842 Mc
I've played around with the hero build a tad @ mid master, and I was pretty surprised what I could do with fast blink vs a standard 3rax/factory (after cc), e.g. outright winning the game with what I figured was a poke using some blink back. Haven't played vs a 4rax or anything yet though.
Hope i'm not derailing from the topic, creator prime is still my favorite/standard PvT 
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On January 25 2012 04:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 04:00 iamke55 wrote:On January 25 2012 01:28 kcdc wrote:
I can't seem to beat Terrans that go double expand + double upgrade with this build. My upgrades are only slightly ahead due to chrono, but even if I see his fast third and respond with my own third, his economy with a faster third and triple MULEs is well ahead of mine, and even tho T's medivacs are delayed, it's difficult to defend 3 bases against drops without taking at least some damage.
What ends up happening is that I can't punish T's third off of this opening, so I take my third early in response. Then I defend drops on 3 bases while maxing out with 3/3 while Terran takes his fourth with a PF. T's 3/3 finishes soon after mine, and because of the gas off of his quick third, he has a ton of medivacs, vikings and ghosts, and both his economy and his army are straight up stronger than mine.
Has anyone else had the same problem? That style counters passive Protoss play in general, and 2 base double forge is as passive as it gets. If you learn how to play the 4 gate pressure with 8-9 minute 3rd base style, it's not a problem. Care to outline a general tech path with that fast 3rd? I used to go for a fast third in PvT a long time ago, but gave up on it because it seemed that if I went for blink/charge, I'd die to drops, and if I went for colossus/storm, I'd die to straight attacks.
It is the other way around for me: blink-charge works great if the terran separates his army and tries to drop you, but frontal attacks are harder to hold. Especially that 4 medivac stim timing (any pro-level tips on unit comp/micro are welcome).
But anyway, here's what you asked for:
3-4 gate > Twilight (blink first) > 3rd nexus > 3-4 extra gates > eventually HT, forges, etc. Make sure you feign pressure and/or have spotting pylons/patrolling probes.
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Thanks for the great guide!
What would be a good way to throw in a warp prism while getting upgrades? When is the good to time to build it?
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What do you think about having the same build up to @100% Twilight council, and getting a templar archives right after starting 2-2 upgrades and charge. Also, with more immortal production. Then adding 5 more gateways, then doing an immortal bust/ chargelot archon all in with 2-2 (or maybe timing push?).
I guess if you added cannons to mineral lines + took a 3rd, you could then go into colossus tech +3-3 and have the same composition, but that is a lot of minerals of a potentially strong all in.
I want to ask you this, because it works for me, but I'm not good. Do you think using this build order similar to the creatorprime build order is viable up at higher levels for an all in? Is this all in viable at all regardless of build order? And also, do you think that making this into a timing attack makes sense or is it better just to all in with this?
Also, I would like to say that I really like creator prime pvt following the OP.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 27 2012 12:38 Contractor wrote:
What do you think about having the same build up to @100% Twilight council, and getting a templar archives right after starting 2-2 upgrades and charge. Also, with more immortal production. Then adding 5 more gateways, then doing an immortal bust/ chargelot archon all in with 2-2 (or maybe timing push?).
I guess if you added cannons to mineral lines + took a 3rd, you could then go into colossus tech +3-3 and have the same composition, but that is a lot of minerals of a potentially strong all in.
I want to ask you this, because it works for me, but I'm not good. Do you think using this build order similar to the creatorprime build order is viable up at higher levels for an all in? Is this all in viable at all regardless of build order? And also, do you think that making this into a timing attack makes sense or is it better just to all in with this?
Also, I would like to say that I really like creator prime pvt following the OP.
Don't have experience with this, so I don't want to comment too much, but I'd say your suggested allin on 2 base isn't very lean. You're suggesting getting immortals, blink, charge, and a templar archives. Also, but the time you allin with all of that, terran's 3rd base will have kicked in enough for it to pay off.
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EPT
