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On March 19 2012 02:59 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2012 13:09 charliexjustice wrote:Hi, I just won a pvt attempting this style, but it felt like I had to cut forges and almost all tech but colossi just to survive the bio pushes. Did I play this style "reactively" or did I just abandon it altogether? What should I have done differently to follow this style more? I won, but felt like I got really off track with what I was trying to do with this build. http://drop.sc/135640Diamond protoss really struggling to improve You didn't defend the bio push well. When dealing with late bio pushes, especially if you have a choke, you want to be more sentry heavy and much less stalker heavy. Stalkers are good at dealing with very early immediate threats, but because you knew he wasn't becoming because you had your tower, you were safe to produce sentries. Because you made so many stalkers, you were very weak to later pushes and that's why you felt so threatened and had to deviate so much. Basically, you deviated completely from the Creatorprime build. The Creatorprime build is a very specific build that relies on specific timings. What you did was a colossi build with forges added on later.
Thank you very much monk. That's what I w as afraid of. So, in order to properly execute this build, I need to get sentries instead of stalkers if I see there is no early push coming?
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United States8477 Posts
On March 19 2012 11:42 charliexjustice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 02:59 NrGmonk wrote:On March 18 2012 13:09 charliexjustice wrote:Hi, I just won a pvt attempting this style, but it felt like I had to cut forges and almost all tech but colossi just to survive the bio pushes. Did I play this style "reactively" or did I just abandon it altogether? What should I have done differently to follow this style more? I won, but felt like I got really off track with what I was trying to do with this build. http://drop.sc/135640Diamond protoss really struggling to improve You didn't defend the bio push well. When dealing with late bio pushes, especially if you have a choke, you want to be more sentry heavy and much less stalker heavy. Stalkers are good at dealing with very early immediate threats, but because you knew he wasn't becoming because you had your tower, you were safe to produce sentries. Because you made so many stalkers, you were very weak to later pushes and that's why you felt so threatened and had to deviate so much. Basically, you deviated completely from the Creatorprime build. The Creatorprime build is a very specific build that relies on specific timings. What you did was a colossi build with forges added on later. Thank you very much monk. That's what I w as afraid of. So, in order to properly execute this build, I need to get sentries instead of stalkers if I see there is no early push coming?
It's more that getting earlier sentries is just good general gameplay. Since the Creatorprime build is so tight, you need to play well throughout the game.
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I've been trying this style for a while now with varied success. I should get some coaching from you. I PMed you a while back about it but you never replied 
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United States8477 Posts
On March 19 2012 15:08 charliexjustice wrote:I've been trying this style for a while now with varied success. I should get some coaching from you. I PMed you a while back about it but you never replied
Just searched my inbox and don't have anything from you.
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good guide, ive been using this style for awhile now and its been working great. as a variation, swapping the timings of the robo bay/TC also allows you to get 2/2 around the same time you would usually, and is, i feel, a little bit safer vs the 4rax style with later medivacs.
also, i personally think that templar/archon should be mixed. archons dont benefit from armor upgrade, so tbh they dont tank all too much, nor do alot of dps if terran is good with their stutterstepping. templar added in makes ghost control much more difficult for terran as well.
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Hey Monk very nice guide so far,
i got some specific upgrade questions
should i chrono my forges from the first second and as much as possible ? same for council ?
research charge right after blink ?
and i'm a little uncertain in my unit composition.
i start with Mc 1 Gate and i got something like 1 Zealot and 3 Stalkers, after WG finishes i try to get 4 sentrys and after this 3 more stalkers for drop defense.
After this point should i just warp in zealots and spend the rest of my gas on Immortal/Coloss/Templer ?
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United States8477 Posts
On March 19 2012 15:25 HinagikUx wrote:
good guide, ive been using this style for awhile now and its been working great. as a variation, swapping the timings of the robo bay/TC also allows you to get 2/2 around the same time you would usually, and is, i feel, a little bit safer vs the 4rax style with later medivacs.
also, i personally think that templar/archon should be mixed. archons dont benefit from armor upgrade, so tbh they dont tank all too much, nor do alot of dps if terran is good with their stutterstepping. templar added in makes ghost control much more difficult for terran as well.
Double forge into twilight leaves you open to 1 rax cc into cloaked banshee and some biomech pushes.
On March 20 2012 07:13 spawnferkel wrote:
Hey Monk very nice guide so far,
i got some specific upgrade questions
should i chrono my forges from the first second and as much as possible ? same for council ?
research charge right after blink ?
Yes/yes/yes
and i'm a little uncertain in my unit composition.
i start with Mc 1 Gate and i got something like 1 Zealot and 3 Stalkers, after WG finishes i try to get 4 sentrys and after this 3 more stalkers for drop defense.
After this point should i just warp in zealots and spend the rest of my gas on Immortal/Coloss/Templer ?
After your first 6 stalkers, you'll eventually want to add even more stalkers for better drop defense and to protect your colossi from viking snipes. Normally a lot of stalkers make your army a much weaker, but this isn't an issue when you have huge upgrade advantages.
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Hi, I'm a high master protoss with my worst MU being PvT. It would be fine, but this ONE timing ALWAYS gets me (and I use this build). It's the medivac timing at 10minutes, i either get multiprong attacked or just attcked at my nat. I really really need help, i follow everything you say but it doesn't seem to cut it ever. If I can get into the lategame PvT without being at a disadvantage, I'm fine, but I'm always behind. Please look at my replay NrGMonk, I would seriously be so grateful!.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Pez_vs_(T)Veetz/18872
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Czech Republic95 Posts
I have same problem as Protossking. I am mid dia eu toss and with this build i have won every pvt macro game in last couple days but the main problem with the build that i have is the moment when terran goes for some kind of 4-5 rax + medivac push i am just not able to get army big enough to deal with it. I have upgrades and a lot of tech going + solid eco but almost any army.
Any advices? I have obs in positions before drops and blink usually near completition but terran can just stim roll over my army.
I would desperately need some replays of this build by progamers. But i dont have gomtv subscription.
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United States8477 Posts
On March 20 2012 15:54 Protossking wrote:Hi, I'm a high master protoss with my worst MU being PvT. It would be fine, but this ONE timing ALWAYS gets me (and I use this build). It's the medivac timing at 10minutes, i either get multiprong attacked or just attcked at my nat. I really really need help, i follow everything you say but it doesn't seem to cut it ever. If I can get into the lategame PvT without being at a disadvantage, I'm fine, but I'm always behind. Please look at my replay NrGMonk, I would seriously be so grateful!. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(P)Pez_vs_(T)Veetz/18872
Just saw this now:
- Your opening is inefficient compared to the terran's opening. Thus, you start out a bit behind.
- You don't poke enough with your initial stalkers to scout/pressure. You retreat your stalkers way too early and lose the ability to deny scv scouting and scout pressure. There's really nothing to be afraid of, because shells off a gasless expand will be much later.
- Consider getting your natural gas later. I've found this very helpful for defending 2 medivac pushes.
- Consider delaying your 4th thru 6th gates until a bit later.
- With the 2 previous combined things, you should have way more zealots than you currently do.
- You have way too much idle robo time. Make 2 immortals, unless he's going pure marine. If you're not making immortals, make observers. You shouldn't really have idle robo time.
- Not enough observers and observers out of position. By that timing when he attacked, I would have at least 3 observers.
- This is probably the most important part: you should know exactly where his army is at all times. You don't have enough vision with obs/pylon placement to rule out a drop. If you can see his army in front of your base with 2 medivacs in it, with good game sense, you should know no drop will be coming. Thus, you can move your stalkers closer to your front. I would highly recommend a pylon/ patrolling obs to the left of your base to spot for drops. Also, an obs should be outside your base to not be caught off-guard by a frontal push.
- Again, keep track of the first 6 medivacs. By the timing of the starport, you should know when his first 2, 2nd 2, and 3rd 2 sets of medivacs come out. If any are missing from his main army, watch out.
- Your forges were in really bad position, forming a choke for your army.
- I assume you'd do better forcefields if you had a better army.
Same thing to Rasputincz.
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Thank you so much! My PvT mid and late game were so lost! Now I have something I can work on. :D
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I have a question regarding the production of immortals.
Why isn't it better to go into colossi as fast as possible ?
I find holding multi pronged attacks around 11'30 very hard without splash damage. Typically, I'll get double-dropped in the back of my main while the Terran will push with the rest of his army at my natural, all while he's taking a third. Even if I survive, I'm behind economically. Isn't it a big problem ? How can I take my third no longer than a minute after his, if I don't have colossi ? My army is not as powerful as his so I feel like I must play defensively at this timing.
In addition, if I delay colossus production after 11' by producing immortals, Terran has time to get a lot of medivacs and align his vikings timings perfectly with my colossi prod. If you make colossi earlier, there will be a timing where you'll have a colossus or two and he has no vikings, which gives you map presence and allows you to take your third more agressively.
Well, whatever. Whether I do the 2 immortals version, or the faster colossi, I usually loose at the stim + medivac timing. Just asking as I'm curious.
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This build is also commonly referred to as the Skullduggery build on the KR ladder. After i played CreatorPrime in Playhem i actually asked him about it and he said he and his friedns got the idea from watch Skullduggery's stream. But thanks for the write up i will be using these timings in my up coming pvts.
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On April 02 2012 03:12 Nyast wrote:
I have a question regarding the production of immortals.
Why isn't it better to go into colossi as fast as possible ?
I find holding multi pronged attacks around 11'30 very hard without splash damage. Typically, I'll get double-dropped in the back of my main while the Terran will push with the rest of his army at my natural, all while he's taking a third. Even if I survive, I'm behind economically. Isn't it a big problem ? How can I take my third no longer than a minute after his, if I don't have colossi ? My army is not as powerful as his so I feel like I must play defensively at this timing.
In addition, if I delay colossus production after 11' by producing immortals, Terran has time to get a lot of medivacs and align his vikings timings perfectly with my colossi prod. If you make colossi earlier, there will be a timing where you'll have a colossus or two and he has no vikings, which gives you map presence and allows you to take your third more agressively.
Well, whatever. Whether I do the 2 immortals version, or the faster colossi, I usually loose at the stim + medivac timing. Just asking as I'm curious.
That's the price you pay for double upgrades, delaying your third until 1 collosus doesn't put you in a tough spot since you will have 2/2 so fast.
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On April 03 2012 03:05 Protossking wrote:
That's the price you pay for double upgrades, delaying your third until 1 collosus doesn't put you in a tough spot since you will have 2/2 so fast.
I wish. I looked at my most recent last two PvTs, and in both cases the Terrans went for double-engy bays at 6'. That's even earlier than this build, and there's no way to scout it in time to punish it. They're turtling behind two bunkers and get a third around 11' all while pushing with stim + medivacs. Meanwhile, I am on equal upgrades, blink almost done, no colossi.. I can defend fine but I don't see how to take a third and not be behind
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United States8477 Posts
On April 02 2012 03:12 Nyast wrote:
I have a question regarding the production of immortals.
Why isn't it better to go into colossi as fast as possible ?
I find holding multi pronged attacks around 11'30 very hard without splash damage. Typically, I'll get double-dropped in the back of my main while the Terran will push with the rest of his army at my natural, all while he's taking a third. Even if I survive, I'm behind economically. Isn't it a big problem ? How can I take my third no longer than a minute after his, if I don't have colossi ? My army is not as powerful as his so I feel like I must play defensively at this timing.
In addition, if I delay colossus production after 11' by producing immortals, Terran has time to get a lot of medivacs and align his vikings timings perfectly with my colossi prod. If you make colossi earlier, there will be a timing where you'll have a colossus or two and he has no vikings, which gives you map presence and allows you to take your third more agressively.
Well, whatever. Whether I do the 2 immortals version, or the faster colossi, I usually loose at the stim + medivac timing. Just asking as I'm curious.
Creatorprime opening is the most common PvT opening in the pro scene. Fast colossi into double forge is the 2nd most common. They both have strengths and weaknesses. The colossi first opening gets slower upgrades and can be harder to defend drops with without blink. Faster upgrades open up timings as well. Creatorprime also allows you to catch your opponent offguard with a colossi switch.
On April 03 2012 03:39 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2012 03:05 Protossking wrote:
That's the price you pay for double upgrades, delaying your third until 1 collosus doesn't put you in a tough spot since you will have 2/2 so fast. I wish. I looked at my most recent last two PvTs, and in both cases the Terrans went for double-engy bays at 6'. That's even earlier than this build, and there's no way to scout it in time to punish it. They're turtling behind two bunkers and get a third around 11' all while pushing with stim + medivacs. Meanwhile, I am on equal upgrades, blink almost done, no colossi.. I can defend fine but I don't see how to take a third and not be behind
You'll still be ahead in upgrades because of chornoboost. Their medivac timing will also be delayed by about 30 seconds. Take your 3rd earlier, because you know your opponent is committing to the long term game. Then you can head into the macro game on equal or ahead footing.
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On April 03 2012 03:50 NrGmonk wrote:
You'll still be ahead in upgrades because of chornoboost. Their medivac timing will also be delayed by about 30 seconds. Take your 3rd earlier, because you know your opponent is committing to the long term game. Then you can head into the macro game on equal or ahead footing.
You won't be on upgrades since you start with 2 minutes of delay.. even with chrono boosts At best you'll end up on equal footing for the 3/3 I think.
I watched again the replay I had in mind, and it looks like Terran's play was very greedy. He had pretty standard timings for stim and medivacs, however he stayed on 3 rax for a looong time ( until 11' ) and his army wasn't as big as I originally thought. So I guess you're right, I could have easily taken my own third, but I ended up being too scared of double-drops ( even if you have blink, if you have bad luck your 6 gates are on cooldown and the rest of your army is out of pos.. ).
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Wow nice, have been struggling with current PvT. I´m used to play the old style with superfast Collo and had massive problem vs mulit-prone attacks. Thanks! Keep up the great work.
Greetings.
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Is there a good example of the creator style vs the semi common style I see of gasless FE into 3 total tanks but standard composition afterwards?
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Wow this seems really interesting!
I'm gonna give this a try and see how it's gonna work ^^
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EPT
