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On May 11 2012 12:34 Protossking wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2012 09:32 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 09 2012 18:29 Protossking wrote:
Hey Monk, I have something that you should really add to your guide.
3rax starport is coming in two different forms recently, one being 2 reactors 1 tech lab mass marines and the other being 2 tech lab 1 reactor (the more standard one). This build is designed to come out ahead against the 2 tech lab builds, but simply dies to a double reactor build through sheer dps and abundance of AoE.
If you scout 2 reactors I really recommend skipping the immortals and teching to collosi as soon as possible, otherwise you will not hold his push. As promised, here are 2 recent high-master PvT's of me holding this push with realtive ease using the creator prime style http://drop.sc/176285http://drop.sc/176283EDIT: Here's 1 more vs. xSixVer :D http://drop.sc/176332 I watched the first one your build isn't really resembling creatorprime style at all. When the push hits you have pure stalker sentry immortal, when creator style opens with a maximum of 5 stalkers 4 sentries and the rest zealots/2immortals. Your 2/2 was really delayed because of this and your build just didn't flow properly at all. You don't have a robotics bay at 11 minutes and you still haven't started 2/2, usually my 2/2 will be halfway complete and I will have a collosus coming out momentarily. If the terran was smart he just wouldn't engage against 8 sentries and stalkers up a ramp, he would simply back off take a third and out-macro you since you don't have enough gas to transition from this unit combination. It actually seems like an all-in to me with 1/1 blink immortal sentry. Robotics bay comes up at like 14minutes.. Obviously you can hold it off without going creatorprime, I'm more thinking about zealot 5 stalkers 4 sentrys where you can't just make ff donuts etc. oh and here's a replay showing that if you cut corners to get faster collosi and forcefield your ramp a few times you can get a collosus out to deal with his push.(also high master) http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)KinetiC_vs_(P)MxGPezz/19667
looking at both replays and using the heavy stalker style before, I have to say the faster colossus and charge one seems much better, the transition is a lot smoother and it seems like you can get better early trades if you do have to trade armies, zealots are more expendable than stalkers. You can also take a faster third and hit a faster 3/3 timing with zealots.
However saying that I think both styles are viable, just a matter of preference, the stalkers style lets you harass and get more observers early on if you lose them since you arent making colossus right away.
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On May 12 2012 09:12 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 11:01 Marodox wrote:On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote. Can you take a look at this replay? http://drop.sc/174102Thanks! You fell quite behind from the 5 rax aggression. Even though you lost fewer resources in that fight, you lost valuable sentries and didn't bother to replace them. You need to be more forward with your stalkers and scout/kite his marines with stalkers across the map. You need to take a faster 3rd after you hold it off, especially when you see his 3rd, which you didn't. A huge mistake was that you didn't bother to replace your sentry count. Instead you tried to rush colossi, which could have worked except your colossi was too late.
Thanks!
Should I just assume that it is safe to expand after I hold the aggression off?
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Can anyone point me in the right direction for pro or high master vods/replays of this build (the more recent the better) vs the popular Double reactor marine stim medivac +1 aggression (after 1 rax FE of course) while the Terran gets his 3rd base? Even with blink it can be incredibly hard to not take damage from this and get your 3rd up at a decent time.
Good terrans always kill my obs nowadays so I have to have my stalkers in my main, at which point they attack my natural (keep in mind this is really marine heavy, so any immortals are near useless). By the time my stalkers are down to help they've already done some damage, then after that they might all out drop my main's mineral line etc where you can't even kill the medivacs in time before the units are out. This goes on and on while they get their own 3rd up and delay yours tremendously.
A side question i have is, what are the timings for Colossus / 3rd base vs a 1 rax 3 CC build? From my experience it's tough to get quicker colossus w/ this build due to the gas needed for +2+2, so i was curious as to what timing you actually use for your Colo in this situation
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so i watched the protoss king replay where he skips immortals for faster colo and charge and have had pretty good success with it except for vs early mass rax styles with delayed starport. Here is a rep of me playing vs that:
http://drop.sc/181316
Can someone analyze it and tell me what I did wrong, Did I need to wait for 2 colossi before I grabbed the third, do I need to get the third and delay colossi for enough units to defend it since he'll have less medivacs?
I understand I lost my sentries early on but I dont think thats the only reason I lost so as much feedback as possible would be appreciated.
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United States8476 Posts
On May 13 2012 13:01 Marodox wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 09:12 NrGmonk wrote:On May 07 2012 11:01 Marodox wrote:On May 02 2012 05:35 NrGmonk wrote:On May 02 2012 05:09 Marodox wrote:
Hey NrGmonk,
Im a masters P and I'm having trouble taking a 3rd when the T does the standard push out with 2 medivacs off of 3 racks. With my units split to deal with drops and col on the way, my army just doesn't have the power to secure a 3rd. What should I be doing to take a fast 3rd. Also, what is the correct response to a 4-5 racks marine power into a fast 3rd. After I hold, I usually die to the super strong 3 base push that comes after, how greedy should I be during this?
For the first question: 1. Use vision(obs, pylons) to split your army smartly. Don't put 5 stalkers in your main if you see your opponent's first 2 medivacs with his entire army at the front of your base. 2. Get later gas in favor of more minerals(zealots) to fight a head on army. 3. Delay your 4th-6th gateways in favor of more additional units. 4. Don't mess up forcefields. 5. Post a replay. For the 2nd: 1. Make sentries and take a 3rd right after you convincingly hold off your opponent's 4-5 rax. Many times, the game is decided by how well you deal with the 4-5 rax aggression; if he doesn't do any damage or you crush it, you can get fairly ahead. With 4-5 rax, your opponent won't have gas for a long time. The next regular marine push isn't that scary and can be held off with forcefields. Your opponents' only choices are delayed tech or 3rd in base cc. Lol, accidently hit edit instead of quote. Can you take a look at this replay? http://drop.sc/174102Thanks! You fell quite behind from the 5 rax aggression. Even though you lost fewer resources in that fight, you lost valuable sentries and didn't bother to replace them. You need to be more forward with your stalkers and scout/kite his marines with stalkers across the map. You need to take a faster 3rd after you hold it off, especially when you see his 3rd, which you didn't. A huge mistake was that you didn't bother to replace your sentry count. Instead you tried to rush colossi, which could have worked except your colossi was too late. Thanks! Should I just assume that it is safe to expand after I hold the aggression off?
Yes, if you hold it convincingly, i.e. if you didn't lose any sentries.
On May 16 2012 09:58 xOny wrote:
Can anyone point me in the right direction for pro or high master vods/replays of this build (the more recent the better) vs the popular Double reactor marine stim medivac +1 aggression (after 1 rax FE of course) while the Terran gets his 3rd base? Even with blink it can be incredibly hard to not take damage from this and get your 3rd up at a decent time.
Good terrans always kill my obs nowadays so I have to have my stalkers in my main, at which point they attack my natural (keep in mind this is really marine heavy, so any immortals are near useless). By the time my stalkers are down to help they've already done some damage, then after that they might all out drop my main's mineral line etc where you can't even kill the medivacs in time before the units are out. This goes on and on while they get their own 3rd up and delay yours tremendously.
A side question i have is, what are the timings for Colossus / 3rd base vs a 1 rax 3 CC build? From my experience it's tough to get quicker colossus w/ this build due to the gas needed for +2+2, so i was curious as to what timing you actually use for your Colo in this situation
I don't have pro replays/vods vs the 2 reactor push, but here are some vs the 1 rax 3 cc build Check out Creator vs Jjakji KSL Game 8 and Creator vs Kas IPTL Game 7 on Shakruas Plateau linked in the OP. To summarize what they do: fast 3rd nexus off of 3 gates, cut units entirely for a while, then add a robo bay, then add 3 more gates. You should have enough minerals to do this by cutting zealots/stalkers. You should have enough gas to get the fast robo bay by cutting stalkers.
On May 16 2012 14:20 AlphaDotCom wrote:so i watched the protoss king replay where he skips immortals for faster colo and charge and have had pretty good success with it except for vs early mass rax styles with delayed starport. Here is a rep of me playing vs that: http://drop.sc/181316Can someone analyze it and tell me what I did wrong, Did I need to wait for 2 colossi before I grabbed the third, do I need to get the third and delay colossi for enough units to defend it since he'll have less medivacs? I understand I lost my sentries early on but I dont think thats the only reason I lost so as much feedback as possible would be appreciated.
I'll comment on the 2 defining moments in the game. First, you didn't hold his initial 4 rax well. If you trade evenly in resources versus that build, you end up behind, because he trades mineral units for your gas heavy sentries. You're also forced to be more passive than you should be and thus you end up behind on econ because you can't take a 3rd. I talked about this in a previous post about a page ago.
Secondly, you lost the 2nd fight, because you were floating 1200 minerals. You didn't need a 2nd colossi, but even 6 more zealots would have won that fight for you.
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any high masters players want to put replays of themselves doing this build against heavy rax agression into a decently timed third base with delayed starport since this is what a lot of people including myself have been asking questions about?
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I was wondering if anyone has any feedback on this build on Antiga against a drop-heavy Terran player. I feel the exposed high ground of the main is too easily dropped due to the Terran's units being able to hug the wall to clear any stalkers defending the top then immediately dropping into the main.
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To hold any drop aggression in Antiga you need one observer over his army and the second one behing you mineral line to spot drops earlier
Keep about 5 or 6 stalker in you main and push back the terran with decent forcefield right when blink finishes, being very careful of blinking again to your main if he tries to drop you
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Hey Monk he just used it vs Happy in KSL Team League Game 11
Results:
+ Show Spoiler +
I love the build it is so safe and is long game focused <3 Creator
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On May 28 2012 02:26 Recoil wrote:Hey Monk he just used it vs Happy in KSL Team League Game 11 Results: + Show Spoiler +I love the build it is so safe and is long game focused <3 Creator
He didn't use the style described in the OP.
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Is this a playstyle that is still viable and recommended to learn? I'm a masters P and need to polish up my playstyle and could this strategy be it? Or is it outdated and there are better options?
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On June 16 2012 13:42 PolishxThunder wrote:
Is this a playstyle that is still viable and recommended to learn? I'm a masters P and need to polish up my playstyle and could this strategy be it? Or is it outdated and there are better options?
I used it a lot last season and as long as I didn't make macro mistakes I won 70%+ of my PvT.
This build + slightly modified version(changed somethings around), and some Parting styles got me 68%ish pvt last season. Mid Masters 1000+ points. Not sure about this season, but I would say this is a solid build to learn, especially for tourneys,BOx etc.
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Would you mind uploading some replays of you doing it, wanna see the modifications. So you don't think It's a ladder build?
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Sorry I don't have any replays, I'm at my parent's house until July and I only have my laptop.
But depending on what I see, I do a mixture of, getting faster forges/skipping immortals/getting fast third/faster colo/or skip colo for storm, just some little changes in timings etc.
I think this is still a good ladder build, but maybe terrans adapted/or play differently now so I cant be too sure, haven't played in few weeks
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Hi, I really appreciate the guide, just a few questions (I'm hopeless at PvT)
Versus the typical 10-11 minute bio push with 2 medivacs initially and more rallied and a third base behind it, how can I safely take my 3rd and get colossi out? I make 2 observers normally, I keep one around his base to check on what hes building etc and one that follows his army around. But when this one gets killed I usually find myself out of position to hold anything (robo being used for colossi now). What should I be doing with my observers? I'm obviously doing something wrong >.>
Also, with the blink first, its useful for stopping drops, but how do you engage a terran army say before colossi are out and you don't have charge. My zealots get kited and stalkers don't do enough damage to bio with medivac support for me to win a fight even if we have equal army values. So what basically happens is I'm having too much trouble even staying alive ot even think about taking a third, while the terran has his already building.
Because of this, I find it difficult to take my third before I have a colossus out- but by then the terran's third is done, so I fall behind macro-wise despite having the upgrade lead. When is a safe time to take your third? Versus this kind of typical bio play, can you do it before colossi are out?
This is just at low masters on korea, if it helps
Thank you very much, once again, great guide 
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Edited this post like 4 times.
Basically: Thank you for the awesome guide
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On July 02 2012 11:05 Wonderstruck wrote:Hi, I really appreciate the guide, just a few questions (I'm hopeless at PvT) Versus the typical 10-11 minute bio push with 2 medivacs initially and more rallied and a third base behind it, how can I safely take my 3rd and get colossi out? I make 2 observers normally, I keep one around his base to check on what hes building etc and one that follows his army around. But when this one gets killed I usually find myself out of position to hold anything (robo being used for colossi now). What should I be doing with my observers? I'm obviously doing something wrong >.> Also, with the blink first, its useful for stopping drops, but how do you engage a terran army say before colossi are out and you don't have charge. My zealots get kited and stalkers don't do enough damage to bio with medivac support for me to win a fight even if we have equal army values. So what basically happens is I'm having too much trouble even staying alive ot even think about taking a third, while the terran has his already building. Because of this, I find it difficult to take my third before I have a colossus out- but by then the terran's third is done, so I fall behind macro-wise despite having the upgrade lead. When is a safe time to take your third? Versus this kind of typical bio play, can you do it before colossi are out? This is just at low masters on korea, if it helps Thank you very much, once again, great guide
Observers - there's plenty of dead robo time in between making immortals and colossus, and I would definitely recommend getting out additional observers especially if your initial 2 get killed (and even if they don't). As far as your observers go, I don't recommend having it constantly moving and following his army around, because that makes it easier for the terran to notice your observer and scan and kill it (of course a good terran would notice an observer even if it wasn't moving, but moving it only makes it so much easier). Instead, just keep observers stationary at important locations around the map such as choke points, watch towers if the terran is controlling them, or a rally point outside one of your bases.
When engaging a terran before you have charge, you'll have to rely on good forcefields. This is easier said than done of course, so sometimes the best way to engage the terran is to actually go out and engage him (when his attention is elsewhere) as opposed to waiting for him to attack your position.
Regarding taking your 3rd, don't worry about terran holding the macro advantage and taking their 3rd much earlier than you. Being able to take your 3rd before or after you have colossus is completely situational, the point of this build is to have the upgrade advantage which should allow you to win any battle before 200/200 even though your army will be smaller.
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Incredible guide, huge thanks for the time that went into it.
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On July 02 2012 11:52 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 11:05 Wonderstruck wrote:Hi, I really appreciate the guide, just a few questions (I'm hopeless at PvT) Versus the typical 10-11 minute bio push with 2 medivacs initially and more rallied and a third base behind it, how can I safely take my 3rd and get colossi out? I make 2 observers normally, I keep one around his base to check on what hes building etc and one that follows his army around. But when this one gets killed I usually find myself out of position to hold anything (robo being used for colossi now). What should I be doing with my observers? I'm obviously doing something wrong >.> Also, with the blink first, its useful for stopping drops, but how do you engage a terran army say before colossi are out and you don't have charge. My zealots get kited and stalkers don't do enough damage to bio with medivac support for me to win a fight even if we have equal army values. So what basically happens is I'm having too much trouble even staying alive ot even think about taking a third, while the terran has his already building. Because of this, I find it difficult to take my third before I have a colossus out- but by then the terran's third is done, so I fall behind macro-wise despite having the upgrade lead. When is a safe time to take your third? Versus this kind of typical bio play, can you do it before colossi are out? This is just at low masters on korea, if it helps Thank you very much, once again, great guide Observers - there's plenty of dead robo time in between making immortals and colossus, and I would definitely recommend getting out additional observers especially if your initial 2 get killed (and even if they don't). As far as your observers go, I don't recommend having it constantly moving and following his army around, because that makes it easier for the terran to notice your observer and scan and kill it (of course a good terran would notice an observer even if it wasn't moving, but moving it only makes it so much easier). Instead, just keep observers stationary at important locations around the map such as choke points, watch towers if the terran is controlling them, or a rally point outside one of your bases. When engaging a terran before you have charge, you'll have to rely on good forcefields. This is easier said than done of course, so sometimes the best way to engage the terran is to actually go out and engage him (when his attention is elsewhere) as opposed to waiting for him to attack your position. Regarding taking your 3rd, don't worry about terran holding the macro advantage and taking their 3rd much earlier than you. Being able to take your 3rd before or after you have colossus is completely situational, the point of this build is to have the upgrade advantage which should allow you to win any battle before 200/200 even though your army will be smaller.
Thanks! Last question, how many stalkers should I have at most (some in main, rest in army)? I think I may overmake them sometimes because I get real paranoid about drops. And could this build be done easily after 3 gate pressure versus a gasless expand, or would everything be too delayed.
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On July 02 2012 14:42 Wonderstruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 11:52 rsvp wrote:On July 02 2012 11:05 Wonderstruck wrote:Hi, I really appreciate the guide, just a few questions (I'm hopeless at PvT) Versus the typical 10-11 minute bio push with 2 medivacs initially and more rallied and a third base behind it, how can I safely take my 3rd and get colossi out? I make 2 observers normally, I keep one around his base to check on what hes building etc and one that follows his army around. But when this one gets killed I usually find myself out of position to hold anything (robo being used for colossi now). What should I be doing with my observers? I'm obviously doing something wrong >.> Also, with the blink first, its useful for stopping drops, but how do you engage a terran army say before colossi are out and you don't have charge. My zealots get kited and stalkers don't do enough damage to bio with medivac support for me to win a fight even if we have equal army values. So what basically happens is I'm having too much trouble even staying alive ot even think about taking a third, while the terran has his already building. Because of this, I find it difficult to take my third before I have a colossus out- but by then the terran's third is done, so I fall behind macro-wise despite having the upgrade lead. When is a safe time to take your third? Versus this kind of typical bio play, can you do it before colossi are out? This is just at low masters on korea, if it helps Thank you very much, once again, great guide Observers - there's plenty of dead robo time in between making immortals and colossus, and I would definitely recommend getting out additional observers especially if your initial 2 get killed (and even if they don't). As far as your observers go, I don't recommend having it constantly moving and following his army around, because that makes it easier for the terran to notice your observer and scan and kill it (of course a good terran would notice an observer even if it wasn't moving, but moving it only makes it so much easier). Instead, just keep observers stationary at important locations around the map such as choke points, watch towers if the terran is controlling them, or a rally point outside one of your bases. When engaging a terran before you have charge, you'll have to rely on good forcefields. This is easier said than done of course, so sometimes the best way to engage the terran is to actually go out and engage him (when his attention is elsewhere) as opposed to waiting for him to attack your position. Regarding taking your 3rd, don't worry about terran holding the macro advantage and taking their 3rd much earlier than you. Being able to take your 3rd before or after you have colossus is completely situational, the point of this build is to have the upgrade advantage which should allow you to win any battle before 200/200 even though your army will be smaller. Thanks! Last question, how many stalkers should I have at most (some in main, rest in army)? I think I may overmake them sometimes because I get real paranoid about drops. And could this build be done easily after 3 gate pressure versus a gasless expand, or would everything be too delayed.
Terran here, been playing some practice games against protoss lately using the build you're describing (I think).
You don't really need that many stalkers at all, I think 5-7 in base is fine. Assuming there are 2 medivacs, you really only need to snipe one and it's pretty much lights out. You can defend with heavy sentry/forcefield zealot while you buy time for colossus since terran at this point is super marine heavy.
Also; on defending drops, it's much easier if you take the time to put spotter pylons. For example on Daybreak if you're spawning on the top right position, placing a pylon around the back of the mineral field at the 12 o clock mid base will give you a heads up when medivacs are out and when drops are possible. Most of the time you can safely put pylons around 7-10 because terran doesn't want to be moving out before medivacs are out, map control is more in your favor than his.
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EPT
