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United States8476 Posts
For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings.
Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like:
FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation.
With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings.
10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small.
12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible.
14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army.
Other things to note:
Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new.
Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening
Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast.
Here's a link of a game:
http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881
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I have also seen him left his double forge style for fast forge + twilight, dont know if u have noticed. He's not focusing on templar like lots of players do and he makes more units for the 10-12mins timings.
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Here are two replays of my first attempts at doing this style. I pretty much get trashed. I've been on a break from SC2 for the past two weeks, but I didn't realise I was this awful:
http://drop.sc/222996
http://drop.sc/222995
Can anyone provide advice as to what needs improving in my play and how I can execute this build better? Thanks.
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On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote:For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881
Can we get some "new" replays with that modified style, maybe you doing it ?
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so timing on the first colossus isn't very important and more so centered on supply(130)?
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Canada13407 Posts
On July 18 2012 07:29 Aelfric wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote:For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881 Can we get some "new" replays with that modified style, maybe you doing it ?
I would absolutely love this. I would like to watch these replays as I have a hard time dealing with the medivac timings and heavy rax. I really feel super contained at the 12 minute mark to 2 bases. It might just be me underestimating how strong my army is though.
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I would say you should be able to expand after 2 colossus as long as you can defend drops well. It can feel uncomfortable but he has to account for your colossus production with vikings and during the set up of the third, I would start the tech switch to templars.
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funny to see the standard sentry count decline over time. at one point is was SIX on many maps :p
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Canada13407 Posts
On July 21 2012 13:31 Alejandrisha wrote:
funny to see the standard sentry count decline over time. at one point is was SIX on many maps :p
We also didnt like templar with the amulet. Collossus were "better"
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On July 21 2012 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 13:31 Alejandrisha wrote:
funny to see the standard sentry count decline over time. at one point is was SIX on many maps :p We also didnt like templar with the amulet. Collossus were "better"
I never liked colossus at all in pvt in when they were the cool thing to get. i was always doin super fast HT plays haha. naniwa kinda convinced me colossus were better by idk ALWAYS going stalk colossus in pvt and winning every game :p
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Is this a playstyle that is still working?
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United States7483 Posts
On July 21 2012 13:31 Alejandrisha wrote:
funny to see the standard sentry count decline over time. at one point is was SIX on many maps :p
Well, people are getting better with their forcefield efficiency, and obviously you want to minimize the amount of gas you have to spend on sentries, so if you can achieve the same effect with 3 as you can with 4, it's only natural =p.
But yeah, watching old games, people sucked horribly with forcefields (except for MC).
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On July 21 2012 13:07 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:29 Aelfric wrote:On July 16 2012 00:07 NrGmonk wrote:For those of you who have been having trouble with 10-12 minute double reactor rax, medivac timings, Creator has recently made a new innovation to the strategy to help alleviate your worries. It has to do with gateway timings. For example, with Startale builds, you do 3 -> 5 -> 7 gateways. Standard gateway timings for 2 base protoss usually looks like 3 gates then add 3 gates between 8:30 and 9:00. However, this is not possible for a creatorprime style, because you get so much tech(2 forges, 4 upgrades, twilight, blink, robo bay) before adding those 3 gateways. Thus, if you follow the standard 3 into 6 gateway configuration, your gateways end up being added around the 10 minute mark, which is just slightly too late for medivac timings. Creator's innovation is to go from 3 into 4 gateways, adding the 4th gateway at the 8:30 mark. His new build looks something like: FE into 3 gate into robo into double forge into twilight into 4th gateway into robo bay into nexus/5th + 6th gateways, where the 3rd and 5th and 6th gateways are interchangeable, depending on your situation. With this build, which has a faster 4th gateway and faster robo bay, you are now way more safe during a large variety of timings. 10-12 minutes: You have the extra gateway to pump out units you wouldn't normally have with the original creatorprime style. It only comes out to about 2 extra units at 10 minutes, but it makes a huge difference in this specific timing window when both armies are small. 12-14 minutes: You have slightly faster colossi to make frontal attacks impossible. 14 minutes beyond: Your 2-2 upgrades kick in and you're almost always 2 upgrades ahead of your opponent with a formidable army. Other things to note: Creator gets 3 sentries now instead of 4 and has been for a long time. This has been the trend in Korean PvT for a long time and isn't anything new. Only 1 immortal instead of 2; pretty obvious versus double reactor opening Gas timings: Creator gets extremely fast gas this game, partly because of his gate gas nexus opening. You generally won't want gas this fast. Here's a link of a game: http://www.own3d.tv/KhaldorTV/video/710881 Can we get some "new" replays with that modified style, maybe you doing it ? I would absolutely love this. I would like to watch these replays as I have a hard time dealing with the medivac timings and heavy rax. I really feel super contained at the 12 minute mark to 2 bases. It might just be me underestimating how strong my army is though.
http://www.sc2-replays.net/de/replays/?adv_search=1&all=1&event=74
They're in there.
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What do you do verse 15cc into 4 rax + SCV pull?
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On July 22 2012 21:22 etherealfall wrote:
What do you do verse 15cc into 4 rax + SCV pull?
you'd see it coming out of the gate with your stalker(s) and from there, Id advise against adding any sentries and I would tell you to make pure cb'd stalkers and get maximum kiting distance from his base to yours. obviously, it will still be tough since you've invested in the robo at that point, and probably the 2 forges as well. cancel +1/+1 immediately if you've started them
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On July 23 2012 10:08 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 21:22 etherealfall wrote:
What do you do verse 15cc into 4 rax + SCV pull? you'd see it coming out of the gate with your stalker(s) and from there, Id advise against adding any sentries and I would tell you to make pure cb'd stalkers and get maximum kiting distance from his base to yours. obviously, it will still be tough since you've invested in the robo at that point, and probably the 2 forges as well. cancel +1/+1 immediately if you've started them
can't you just make a lot of cannons?
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Not enough time i think. I'll keep your advise in mind if i come across it again alejandrisha
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So do we use this new variation against the double tech lab too, or just the double reactor.
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I use to do this build on high/top master (as my standard PvT) and both styles are viable and powerful. With the old one is easier to defend on the top of a ramp, but you will need really good ff against a good terran to take your third (if he goes 5 rax before third)
With the new style is a bit more difficult to defend if he tries to drop and attack your natural at the same time because you would have only one inmortal and less sentrys, but the first colossi is done about 1 minute earlier, so you would take your third 1 minute before in the worst scenario.
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I have been using this lately.
This build is really strong
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EPT
