EPT[G] CreatorPrime PvT - Page 7
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
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wardou
France54 Posts
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wardou
France54 Posts
Here the replay : http://www.sctemple.com/replay/149787/ thx for help | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On January 02 2012 19:08 wardou wrote: is this style viable with MC 1 Gate FE Opening? Yes. Creator has 1 Gate FEd in most games I've seen him play. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On January 03 2012 00:44 wardou wrote: im always in trouble when i do this strat when the Terran decides to push me about 8min , with 30marines , at 8min marks my +1 Attack and +1 Armor are not finish , and i dont have the time to throw down cannons at my mineral , i dont how can i adaptive this build against 30marines timing attack. Here the replay : http://www.sctemple.com/replay/149787/ thx for help It came down to a few things: Not hitting every warpin cycle possible Getting your first observer killed Not kiting at all with stalkers Getting gas too early-as a result you had too many sentries and not enough mineral-heavy, damage dealing units. | ||
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LeakyBucket
Canada76 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 08 2012 17:36 LeakyBucket wrote: Any ideas of what to transition into when playing against mech. I've seen the strat. that day9 did a daily on recently. It opens with banshee harass into thor tank with hellions or something like that. well FFE works well into Stargate/robo hybrids like pheonix immortal, the cannons hold off harrass while pheonixes come out and then with 5-6 pheonixes you can harrass same as having mutas, and with hellion and banshee opennings they often skimp on marines, allowing you to pick them off and delay alot of stuff especially the higher tech. Immortals work well vs mech if positioned well and you can eliminate some of the threat of tank fire on the way in (via pheonix) so FFE->pheonix counter harrass-> pheonix immortal gateway makes logical sense, you would never go collosus vs mech as thor/banshee/viking/tank wrecks collosus if you have two of the four. So immortal/obs from robo while you get pheonixes and gateway units as fodder, obviously working in archon/HT as the game transitions to 3 or 4 base, since the AOE is great vs hellion, also remember warp prism + sentries is an amazing way to slow mech armies, dropping sentries and forcefielding a terran mech army FORCES a siege for 5-10 seconds while they get the thors to crush the fields. speed upgrades are very important vs mech, obs speed and warp prism speed, allowing you to harrass well and defend and scout quickly. Alternately getting DTs after a FFE would work to harrass and secure a third while terran is getting their second/production provided you invest in enough cannons on each base to beat the banshees. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On January 08 2012 17:54 PrinceXizor wrote: well FFE works well into Stargate/robo hybrids like pheonix immortal, the cannons hold off harrass while pheonixes come out and then with 5-6 pheonixes you can harrass same as having mutas, and with hellion and banshee opennings they often skimp on marines, allowing you to pick them off and delay alot of stuff especially the higher tech. Immortals work well vs mech if positioned well and you can eliminate some of the threat of tank fire on the way in (via pheonix) so FFE->pheonix counter harrass-> pheonix immortal gateway makes logical sense, you would never go collosus vs mech as thor/banshee/viking/tank wrecks collosus if you have two of the four. So immortal/obs from robo while you get pheonixes and gateway units as fodder, obviously working in archon/HT as the game transitions to 3 or 4 base, since the AOE is great vs hellion, also remember warp prism + sentries is an amazing way to slow mech armies, dropping sentries and forcefielding a terran mech army FORCES a siege for 5-10 seconds while they get the thors to crush the fields. speed upgrades are very important vs mech, obs speed and warp prism speed, allowing you to harrass well and defend and scout quickly. Alternately getting DTs after a FFE would work to harrass and secure a third while terran is getting their second/production provided you invest in enough cannons on each base to beat the banshees. wtf FFE vs terran? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
but yeah i definitely combined multiple questions into that answer sorry. the overarching points are still valid however, DTs are strong against teching terrans, and Fast expansions allow you to be flexible with DTs and Pheonix immortal works well against terran mech, especially with how strong pheonixes are against the two common mech openners (banshee or hellion) and i type FFE by reflex when i talk about fast expansions. it's a bad habit. EDIT: i think it's because i play zerg + protoss and so it's that matchup i'm the most familiar with. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On January 08 2012 18:10 PrinceXizor wrote: My mind combined the question about MC's FE and the question i quoted into one. and i answered as if it was one question, but FFE vs terran certainly is possible, especially in GSL maps, and especially vs players trying mech in TvP. but yeah i definitely combined multiple questions into that answer sorry. the overarching points are still valid however, DTs are strong against teching terrans, and Fast expansions allow you to be flexible with DTs and Pheonix immortal works well against terran mech, especially with how strong pheonixes are against the two common mech openners (banshee or hellion) and i type FFE by reflex when i talk about fast expansions. it's a bad habit. Why would you forge fast expand versus terran when you can 15 nexus or 1 gate fe? And how do you know your opponent is going to mech beforehand? No terran is going to choose to either mech or bio just based on the fact that went FFE. Also dts are probably worse versus mech than bio simply because ravens are more common with mech, but that's really a moot point. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On January 08 2012 18:20 NrGmonk wrote: Why would you forge fast expand versus terran when you can 15 nexus or 1 gate fe? And how do you know your opponent is going to mech beforehand? No terran is going to choose to either mech or bio just based on the fact that went FFE. Also dts are probably worse versus mech than bio simply because ravens are more common with mech, but that's really a moot point. You don't know your opponent is going mech before, stating that FFE works vs mech doesn't have to mean anything other than what was said. ^^ i wasn't endorsing blindly going FFE and hoping that Terran goes mech, it's good to know matchups for mediocre (currently) opennings, in case what is standard changes, or Terrans devise a way to pressure earlier so that FFE becomes needed. | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
On January 09 2012 06:13 PrinceXizor wrote: You don't know your opponent is going mech before, stating that FFE works vs mech doesn't have to mean anything other than what was said. ^^ i wasn't endorsing blindly going FFE and hoping that Terran goes mech, it's good to know matchups for mediocre (currently) opennings, in case what is standard changes, or Terrans devise a way to pressure earlier so that FFE becomes needed. I once scouted a Protoss who tried to FFE against my terran. Needless to say I won by the 6min mark. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
The guide says to make 1-2 cannons which has worked for me on maps like shakuras where there is a ramp at the natural that is easily FF'ed, but on maps like metal it is easy to just micro around the cannons and kite your zealots back away from the cannons making the investment in cannons seemingly not worth it. Plus the lack of the ramp makes it a lot harder to FF to prevent kiting. Do I just need to execute the build better or is this just not a good build for maps like metal? I feel like it is smarter to get faster colossi on metal. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On January 10 2012 06:50 Skyro wrote: Ok I'm having some serious issues defending the midgame pushes ~10-11 mins w/ this build (4-rax, 2 medivac timing, ghost push, all of them) on maps with wide open naturals like metal. At this point in the game you are still relying on purely gateway units and don't have charge, aoe, and have just a 1/1 upgrade advantage and I lose almost every fight with equal sized armies. The guide says to make 1-2 cannons which has worked for me on maps like shakuras where there is a ramp at the natural that is easily FF'ed, but on maps like metal it is easy to just micro around the cannons and kite your zealots back away from the cannons making the investment in cannons seemingly not worth it. Plus the lack of the ramp makes it a lot harder to FF to prevent kiting. Do I just need to execute the build better or is this just not a good build for maps like metal? I feel like it is smarter to get faster colossi on metal. Post a replay. On a map like metal, you may have to put down 2 cannons when you'd otherwise make just 1 or 3 instead of 2. Without watching a replay, the only advice I can give you is to get your natural gas later and really focus on not missing warpgate rounds. With these 2 things combined, you can get way more zealots to hold these types of pushes. | ||
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Aelfric
Turkey1496 Posts
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On January 10 2012 22:04 NrGmonk wrote: Post a replay. On a map like metal, you may have to put down 2 cannons when you'd otherwise make just 1 or 3 instead of 2. Without watching a replay, the only advice I can give you is to get your natural gas later and really focus on not missing warpgate rounds. With these 2 things combined, you can get way more zealots to hold these types of pushes. Yeah I would've posted replays but I'd rather not be embarassed lol. I'm pretty good at spotting my mistakes and where I slipped on macro etc. etc. my question was more about if it was possible to hold. It feels to me that the margin of error is quite slim since you are investing so much into tech and are relying on what is essentially 3 gateways worth of production until ~10 mins. To hold you pretty much have to get good FFs off to prevent kiting right? I don't see how it is possible to (cost effectively) hold w/o getting good FFs off. | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25216 Posts
On January 11 2012 04:03 aZealot wrote: Isn't it possible then to put down one forge only, more gates to hold against pushes, get 1-1 and put down the TC and second forge when +1 weapons (assuming armour first) is halfway researched? Or does this screw up the build entirely? It does kind of screw with the timings, You don't really need the additional gates to hold pushes if you follow this build correctly, even pretty hardcore timings can be fended off. You lose the synchronicity of having your upgrades finishing together as well, so that limits your scope to change up and decide to hit say a 2/2 timing if you spot him being overly greedy. This build is only not safe if executed correctly against proper 1 base all-ins, which you don't want the dual forges with in the first place. I tend to let only one of them finish if I suspect/confirm a 1/1/1 and chrono out +1 armour to deal with marines in such pushes. | ||
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