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United States8476 Posts
On December 14 2011 07:12 unit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 15:08 CecilSunkure wrote:
Very good point with archons vs storm. I've been playing like this with storm instead of archons, and never realized how storm isn't taking advantage of my upgrades. just a comment, its still good to have 3-4 templar for storms and the rest for archons, this way you still take advantage of the upgrades and the raw power of storming, also you add targets for emps that arent archons which means the archons themselves will theoretically survive longer as there are less emp's directed at them
I already addressed this and stated why I think templar aren't good in certain situations.
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Amazing guide. I was looking in getting back into SC2 and already picked the builds I wan to learn for PvP and PvZ. This one looks like an amazing macro build with everything I want in it (FE, ups, quicker obs, and tech switch on 3base). Would you suggest that this is a good beginner build or should I be looking elsewhere? (Not sure if this is a good place to ask the question either X_x).
TY again!!
(other builds are PvP 3stalker rush into 3gate robo, PvZ FFE into 6gate timing.)
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Do you think you could upload replays of you doing this build? Your guides are my #1 resource but it always bugs me how you always link progames and never replays of your own play. I understand the reasoning behind this but it is frustrating because for many progames there are no replays and it is much harder to glean information from a vod than it is from a replay. I think it would be very helpful to see some of your own replays of you performing this build. I understand that you are not a pro but I think it still would be helpful to see the decision making of high level player such as yourself.
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He posted a replay on page 5?
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On December 14 2011 06:50 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:25 TG Manny wrote:
Something worth knowing about my TvX build that makes it super successful vs toss...I drop much earlier than expected and much more often than anticipated. My drops are in-base at 9-minutes, 10 if delayed by not macroing properly. 8 marines, stimmed and shielded will eat your probes or kill some tech. Many times I continually drop afterword if I see low unit counts (mainly vs Z since they want more drones faster). I assume I can trade stim-marines with a medivac well enough vs a small count of stalkers.
Even then, fast factory into drop play hits much faster than my drops. I delay medivacs for stim/shields and delay getting a second gas until my factory is complete (which is around 27 food). I assume Fast Factory takes much more gas sooner rather than later, thus port-tech is up earlier.
Sure, but if you get drops that fast, you will have to sacrifice a lot in safety. For example, fewer bunkers, bio units, and no eng bay for dts. In addition, your drops have to do a lot of damage to stay even, because if you delay upgrades for too long, you will be horribly behind. One base drop plays are a whole different issue all together and this guide basically has nothing to do with them.
This isn't one base, (2raxFE w/ 1 gas and continual dropping as soon as port finishes and gets reactor). By the time the drop lands I have another 16 marines at home + 8 from rush times and more medivacs with added production from more rax and upgrades starting after "first drop" stage completes usually. Granted, I am in gold, but I've seen people try to emulate this to no success vs 16 marines in-base and more at home.
I do realize that we don't get bunkers in this case, but we only bunker when we need to. I'm not questioning the viability of the build but I am wondering what the response is to early drop play with enough back home to keep an All-in move. Obv toss can scout it but just curious what reaction would be if they are taken by surprise.
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On December 15 2011 11:07 TG Manny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:50 NrGmonk wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 TG Manny wrote:
Something worth knowing about my TvX build that makes it super successful vs toss...I drop much earlier than expected and much more often than anticipated. My drops are in-base at 9-minutes, 10 if delayed by not macroing properly. 8 marines, stimmed and shielded will eat your probes or kill some tech. Many times I continually drop afterword if I see low unit counts (mainly vs Z since they want more drones faster). I assume I can trade stim-marines with a medivac well enough vs a small count of stalkers.
Even then, fast factory into drop play hits much faster than my drops. I delay medivacs for stim/shields and delay getting a second gas until my factory is complete (which is around 27 food). I assume Fast Factory takes much more gas sooner rather than later, thus port-tech is up earlier.
Sure, but if you get drops that fast, you will have to sacrifice a lot in safety. For example, fewer bunkers, bio units, and no eng bay for dts. In addition, your drops have to do a lot of damage to stay even, because if you delay upgrades for too long, you will be horribly behind. One base drop plays are a whole different issue all together and this guide basically has nothing to do with them. This isn't one base, (2raxFE w/ 1 gas and continual dropping as soon as port finishes and gets reactor). By the time the drop lands I have another 16 marines at home + 8 from rush times and more medivacs with added production from more rax and upgrades starting after "first drop" stage completes usually. Granted, I am in gold, but I've seen people try to emulate this to no success vs 16 marines in-base and more at home. I do realize that we don't get bunkers in this case, but we only bunker when we need to. I'm not questioning the viability of the build but I am wondering what the response is to early drop play with enough back home to keep an All-in move. Obv toss can scout it but just curious what reaction would be if they are taken by surprise.
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This is perhaps a really stupid question, but what should the micro look like in a late-game zealot-archon vs bioball fight?
I always feel like terrans can stim in and out and melt my zealot-bank at will when I don't have storm to put in his way. The small handful of colossi you recommend here don't seem to do enough damage in return, especially when there's a viking blob around, and archons feel too slow to get splash on a kiting army.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 15 2011 11:07 TG Manny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 06:50 NrGmonk wrote:On December 14 2011 06:25 TG Manny wrote:
Something worth knowing about my TvX build that makes it super successful vs toss...I drop much earlier than expected and much more often than anticipated. My drops are in-base at 9-minutes, 10 if delayed by not macroing properly. 8 marines, stimmed and shielded will eat your probes or kill some tech. Many times I continually drop afterword if I see low unit counts (mainly vs Z since they want more drones faster). I assume I can trade stim-marines with a medivac well enough vs a small count of stalkers.
Even then, fast factory into drop play hits much faster than my drops. I delay medivacs for stim/shields and delay getting a second gas until my factory is complete (which is around 27 food). I assume Fast Factory takes much more gas sooner rather than later, thus port-tech is up earlier.
Sure, but if you get drops that fast, you will have to sacrifice a lot in safety. For example, fewer bunkers, bio units, and no eng bay for dts. In addition, your drops have to do a lot of damage to stay even, because if you delay upgrades for too long, you will be horribly behind. One base drop plays are a whole different issue all together and this guide basically has nothing to do with them. This isn't one base, (2raxFE w/ 1 gas and continual dropping as soon as port finishes and gets reactor). By the time the drop lands I have another 16 marines at home + 8 from rush times and more medivacs with added production from more rax and upgrades starting after "first drop" stage completes usually. Granted, I am in gold, but I've seen people try to emulate this to no success vs 16 marines in-base and more at home. I do realize that we don't get bunkers in this case, but we only bunker when we need to. I'm not questioning the viability of the build but I am wondering what the response is to early drop play with enough back home to keep an All-in move. Obv toss can scout it but just curious what reaction would be if they are taken by surprise.
I know you were mainly not talking about 1 base play. That last sentence was in reference to your 2nd paragraph.
My whole point is that the build you describe is not safe at all from ANY allin. If you tech to medivacs that fast, you will lose to any allin that hits before medivacs and you will lose to dts. If you move out with even 1 medivac at the time your medivacs pop out, you will die to an allin. You can't claim that you're safe from an allin just because you leave 16 marines at home.
The reaction to what you describe with this build is just normal drop defense.
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On December 15 2011 11:44 Belisarius wrote:
This is perhaps a really stupid question, but what should the micro look like in a late-game zealot-archon vs bioball fight?
I always feel like terrans can stim in and out and melt my zealot-bank at will when I don't have storm to put in his way. The small handful of colossi you recommend here don't seem to do enough damage in return, especially when there's a viking blob around, and archons feel too slow to get splash on a kiting army.
If you have sentries left from early game, the micro is hitting 'g' 2 or 3 times, forcefielding what you can, a-moving, then warping in at your proxy pylon and a-moving those units, then chronoboosting your gates at home.
If you don't have sentries, you a-move, warp-in, a-move the reinforcements, then chronoboost gates.
In other words, there is no micro.
If you have some colossi, you pretty much just a-move those too, but you do want to make sure it's far enough forward to get a shot off before the bio starts kiting your zealots.
If you also have blink stalkers in your composition, you actually have to micro so that they kill vikings and medivacs, and the injured stalkers bilnk to the back.
Don't be like me and a-move 15 times in a row and on click #15, accidentally hit your own archon to 1-shot it. You'd be surprised how badly you lose a fight if you pull all of your charging zealots off their targets to focus fire your archons.
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On December 15 2011 11:57 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:44 Belisarius wrote:
This is perhaps a really stupid question, but what should the micro look like in a late-game zealot-archon vs bioball fight?
I always feel like terrans can stim in and out and melt my zealot-bank at will when I don't have storm to put in his way. The small handful of colossi you recommend here don't seem to do enough damage in return, especially when there's a viking blob around, and archons feel too slow to get splash on a kiting army. If you have sentries left from early game, the micro is hitting 'g' 2 or 3 times, forcefielding what you can, a-moving, then warping in at your proxy pylon and a-moving those units, then chronoboosting your gates at home. If you don't have sentries, you a-move, warp-in, a-move the reinforcements, then chronoboost gates. In other words, there is no micro. If you have some colossi, you pretty much just a-move those too, but you do want to make sure it's far enough forward to get a shot off before the bio starts kiting your zealots. If you also have blink stalkers in your composition, you actually have to micro so that they kill vikings and medivacs, and the injured stalkers bilnk to the back. Don't be like me and a-move 15 times in a row and on click #15, accidentally hit your own archon to 1-shot it. You'd be surprised how badly you lose a fight if you pull all of your charging zealots off their targets to focus fire your archons.
Thanks. And that works okay? I just feel like bio can kite an a-move protoss all day and get off completely free. I guess zealots do live a pretty long time with an armour advantage. Do you ever disable charge to keep the fight closer to your damage dealers?
Also lol, yes, I've done that, usually on my way back from chronoing gates. Charging zealots make such a pretty flower orbiting around my ball...
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Thanks a lot for the guide! Lately PvT has been my toughest matchup (though it is my favorite), and have been trying to work both this guide and your other guide on MC's 1gate FE into my standard play.
Do you think you could upload/post more of your own replays doing both builds (ideally with varying reactions to different T builds that you see). I watched all the vods and have a hard time still deciphering everything thats going on. I find it much more helpful analyzing replays than the vods where I can't control the camera.
Thanks a lot again for your excellent guide!
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On December 15 2011 12:07 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 11:57 kcdc wrote:On December 15 2011 11:44 Belisarius wrote:
This is perhaps a really stupid question, but what should the micro look like in a late-game zealot-archon vs bioball fight?
I always feel like terrans can stim in and out and melt my zealot-bank at will when I don't have storm to put in his way. The small handful of colossi you recommend here don't seem to do enough damage in return, especially when there's a viking blob around, and archons feel too slow to get splash on a kiting army. If you have sentries left from early game, the micro is hitting 'g' 2 or 3 times, forcefielding what you can, a-moving, then warping in at your proxy pylon and a-moving those units, then chronoboosting your gates at home. If you don't have sentries, you a-move, warp-in, a-move the reinforcements, then chronoboost gates. In other words, there is no micro. If you have some colossi, you pretty much just a-move those too, but you do want to make sure it's far enough forward to get a shot off before the bio starts kiting your zealots. If you also have blink stalkers in your composition, you actually have to micro so that they kill vikings and medivacs, and the injured stalkers bilnk to the back. Don't be like me and a-move 15 times in a row and on click #15, accidentally hit your own archon to 1-shot it. You'd be surprised how badly you lose a fight if you pull all of your charging zealots off their targets to focus fire your archons. Thanks. And that works okay? I just feel like bio can kite an a-move protoss all day and get off completely free. I guess zealots do live a pretty long time with an armour advantage. Do you ever disable charge to keep the fight closer to your damage dealers? Also lol, yes, I've done that, usually on my way back from chronoing gates. Charging zealots make such a pretty flower orbiting around my ball...
It works okay, not great. You're going to get kited, but your composition is super-tanky and it's pretty fast. Your archons and blink stalkers will at least be able to clear up the medivacs and vikings, and the bio will take heavy damage from stim and charge hits. Kiting happens, but it's not that deadly as long as you can keep the medivac count low.
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This build is so awesome. PVT is now my favorite matchup. This combined with the 1gate expo opener has solved all of my PVT problems, when I lose a game now it is because I'm getting outplayed, which is how I like to lose.
My favorite TL guide so far.
Thanks very much.
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When do you think is the best time to start immortal production depending on what they are doing of course.
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Ok so I've been playing this build a bit more lately and some things I'm noticing:
-Archon's unit size is so large and their range is so short that there is rarely ever a scenario where you will have more than 3 Archons actually DPS'ing at one time. Archons are good tanks but not cost efficient ones and their strength is really in their splash damage so I question ever having the need to have more than 3 Archons in a maxed army.
-If you are advocating pushing your upgrade advantage and not waiting for storm, why not make a Dark Shrine instead? It takes an extra 50 seconds to build, but it gives you nice map/expo control options as well as being excellent for drop defense. You can mix in DTs in your army to force additional scans, and the difference in cost of morphing an Archon b/w HT and DT is not a big deal especially considering my point above about only mixing a few Archons in your army. I think the map/expo control point is particularly important because how I am seeing smart Terrans react to double forge builds is to attempt to outmacro the Protoss player. You will at points have a stronger army but the Terran's ability to turtle with PFs is unmatched.
-And going along the above 2 points, even if you do choose to go stormless HT, it is still worth it to keep 1 or 2 in your army strictly for feedback purposes, rather than make an additional Archon over 3 IMO. While HT doesn't give the map/expo control of DTs, feedback is also a very good vs drops.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 24 2011 05:20 Easytouch1500 wrote:
When do you think is the best time to start immortal production depending on what they are doing of course.
I could go into more detail about it, but it honestly either rarely matters or would be very situation specific. Just get them whenever at a safe time depending on the game.
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do you think placing down stargate to get pheonix instead of getting twilight --> templar is a viable choice? TSL protoss used to to these kind of build with collosus and phoenix as the core units with gateway army supplement them. It''s a similar build up untill the twilight part
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Really good guide, I've been doing a double forge gateway-favoured style of PvT for a while now and it really works for me, I've been trying some things out with DT's as well (alongside double forge) but nothing really noteworthy to add. Have you tried them out?
I agree about templar vs archons, but I still like to get 1 templar at each base (usually 3, maybe 4) before maxing to both gather energy and feedback drops. I research storm as I'm maxed (and also get all the extra gateways to go to 16-20+). Hotkey them to say, 0, just so that later one once our epic engagement has happened, and I need to deal the finishing blow (and/or he's caught up in upgrades), I have 3 or 4 full energy templar back home to gather up. You can optionally warp-in another 3-4 templar to take their place as drop defence and to gather energy for another round later, but at that point in the game they are likely unnecessary and better used for archons.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 30 2011 20:55 brachester wrote:
do you think placing down stargate to get pheonix instead of getting twilight --> templar is a viable choice? TSL protoss used to to these kind of build with collosus and phoenix as the core units with gateway army supplement them. It''s a similar build up untill the twilight part
Don't really see how it's possible to skip the twilight. You need it to get +2 upgrades. Also, upgrades don't synergize well with phoenix. You probably saw a completely different build.
On December 31 2011 00:39 BlindSC2 wrote:
Really good guide, I've been doing a double forge gateway-favoured style of PvT for a while now and it really works for me, I've been trying some things out with DT's as well (alongside double forge) but nothing really noteworthy to add. Have you tried them out?
No I have not.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://professionalgaminglife.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/CreatorPrime.png)
