I'm really loving this style of PvZ, thanks for this guide! I'm normally really lost in this matchup. Best part is you can hit before mutas come out, and tons of zergs are going heavy muta these days. It also really punishes players who go for a quick 3rd and drone hard while delaying their tech. Had a game where I was able to kill all 3 of the zergs hatches lol...+1 zealots just shred through lings, especially when they are hard to surround in the mineral patch. And while you are harassing one base you can just move your warp prism to the next one.

Alejandrisha

United States6565 Posts

November 23 2011 03:53 GMT

#63

On November 23 2011 11:40 flipstorm wrote:
I'm really loving this style of PvZ, thanks for this guide! I'm normally really lost in this matchup. Best part is you can hit before mutas come out, and tons of zergs are going heavy muta these days. It also really punishes players who go for a quick 3rd and drone hard while delaying their tech. Had a game where I was able to kill all 3 of the zergs hatches lol...+1 zealots just shred through lings, especially when they are hard to surround in the mineral patch. And while you are harassing one base you can just move your warp prism to the next one.

Yep. This build allows for much more dynamic play in that respect, which is why I love it so much!

paddyz

Ireland628 Posts

November 23 2011 04:32 GMT

#64

Thank you kind sir

LatsyrC

Haiti76 Posts

November 23 2011 04:36 GMT

#65

isnt this the build that naniwa used in last MLG? 4gate +1 warp prism pressure into collosus 2base timming attack?

terranmoccasin

United States74 Posts

November 23 2011 17:59 GMT

#66

The opener is similar... but this is more like outlining a new, harass-based PvZ style that can react to what army composition he defends with. That timing attack that Naniwa did is just one of many possible transitions.

skatbone

United States1005 Posts

November 23 2011 21:42 GMT

#67

Thanks for this Alejandrisha. I've tried my own FFE into 4-gate pressure in lowly diamond-league but you have ironed out the timings in a manner that makes more sense that what I was doing. I like to play a harass based style and this sets me up for that. This build also allows to pressure heavily enough that mass mutas aren't a threat in the mid-game (if the game goes long, they might still make an appearance). The fast third allows me to play the game as I really want to play. So often, I get stuck on 2-base with an oversaturation problem.

Unfortunately, post-MLG, 4 out of every 5 zerg I play roach rush me off one hatch, or just after they drop their natural hatch. Like other tosses, if I scout it, I can usually defend it. But if I fail to scout it, I run into trouble.

I am wondering what the best followup is if the zerg has forced me to make 4+ cannons to defend their roaches. I've seen three followups from them: they are taking a 3rd while they roach harass, they just mass more roaches, or they tech switch and mass off of two base. The hardest for me to deal with is when they take the fast third. I suppose I should look to attack ASAP after I hold their rush. However, if they are smart, they get away with most of their roaches and it takes me a couple of minutes to field an army.

Complete

United States1864 Posts

November 23 2011 22:19 GMT

#68

I don't think your FFE builds are safe. 15 pools on standard maps get to your nat at 4:10 if they don't waste any time. Your nexus first build I can't remember exactly but the cannon gets finished at ~4:20. 6 lings in your base is a pretty big issue, and if it's later than that he could just target down the cannon.

This is causing me to always forge, pylon block nat, another pylon, cannon,gate if I go nexus first and always go pylon forge nexus pylon cannon gate if i forge first. The issue is this delays my warpgate by quite a bit. With 4 chrono's the earliest I get it is 8:00, where in your replay i think it was finishing at ~7:30

Any tips?

monk

United States8476 Posts

November 23 2011 22:29 GMT

#69

On November 24 2011 07:19 Complete wrote:
I don't think your FFE builds are safe. 15 pools on standard maps get to your nat at 4:10 if they don't waste any time. Your nexus first build I can't remember exactly but the cannon gets finished at ~4:20. 6 lings in your base is a pretty big issue, and if it's later than that he could just target down the cannon.

This is causing me to always forge, pylon block nat, another pylon, cannon,gate if I go nexus first and always go pylon forge nexus pylon cannon gate if i forge first. The issue is this delays my warpgate by quite a bit. With 4 chrono's the earliest I get it is 8:00, where in your replay i think it was finishing at ~7:30

Any tips?

Send a replay. His opening is standard, so there should be no problem. Sometimes you do have to pull probes to block or add a temporary 2nd gateway.

Leafs

Canada41 Posts

November 23 2011 23:05 GMT

#70

Do you think this style is too APM heavy for a middling platinum player like myself? Is there too much going on to be able to implement it well? Having trouble in PvZ, and willing to try anything new, really.

Zeppelin535

Canada262 Posts

November 23 2011 23:07 GMT

#71

High-Master Protoss here... Been trying this style quite a bit lately. It really seems quite powerful. Personally I just stay on 2 base unless there is some reason for me to take a third. The skill ceiling is what I love most about this style. Mostly what I've been doing is sniping the third with those 8 zealots, then going for a 4 Sentry WP drop in the main while I poke the front with my Blink Stalker army. But watching replays I've realized I could even warp in a couple DTs and send them to the third while I'm doing all that.

This harass style off 2 base is very strong if you can out multitask your opponent. All the excess gas I find myself with in the early game due to making the 8 Zealots is also great, and makes throwing down that Dark Shrine quite easy, and the DTs become quite valuable as the game progresses. All the tech becomes even more valuable and makes this style very versatile. If they go mass roach, you can add Immortals from your Robo, if they go infestor+ling or muta+ling you can go Archons thanks to the DTs and you already have Blink for the Mutas.

Thank you OP for the guide.

awwnuts07

United States621 Posts

November 24 2011 02:42 GMT

#72

On November 24 2011 08:05 Leafs wrote:
Do you think this style is too APM heavy for a middling platinum player like myself? Is there too much going on to be able to implement it well? Having trouble in PvZ, and willing to try anything new, really.

It is. I know cuz i'm the same as you. However, you should just do the build. you wont get better unless you push yourself.

Alejandrisha

United States6565 Posts

November 24 2011 03:33 GMT

#73

It's tough to make it work as well as it can, sure. But using this build will force you to multitask and that's they only way you will improve

My last guide was kinda of like that in the sense that the whole thing falls flat unless your mechanics are sound. I think that is the way we should be playing right now with the game in its infancy!

@Zeppelin535- I'm glad you appreciate the versatility of this build as much as I do! I agree that doing the harass in no way guarantees you a free third. I've had success with powering off of 2 bases for quite some time before taking a 3rd if I take one before the game is over. Against anything but 2/3 base roach and 2 base infestor, you can take a 3rd pretty safely if you do some damage and keep your macro up in the meantime, adding gates as you go.

Necrophantasia

Japan299 Posts

November 24 2011 03:48 GMT

#74

Been trying so hard to use this style, but no one at my level even takes a third anymore. It's just 2 base into a bazillion roaches.

My 8 +1 zealots don't do anything and I just die to roach. What to do?

Alejandrisha

United States6565 Posts

November 24 2011 03:54 GMT

#75

On November 24 2011 12:48 Necrophantasia wrote:
Been trying so hard to use this style, but no one at my level even takes a third anymore. It's just 2 base into a bazillion roaches.

My 8 +1 zealots don't do anything and I just die to roach. What to do?

This can be problematic. I've been trying to find sure-fire ways to scout whether or not a 3rd has been taken; getting 2 zealots out before WG can do the trick as long as they dont have a lot of speedlings out on the map at that time, which should clue you into some kind of 2 base shenanigans. Using the probes you hide on the map before lings are out can also be of use but it is tough to use that scout and still hide the fact you might have pylons some where. link a replay here if you'd like some additional help.

Xenorawks

158 Posts

November 24 2011 03:56 GMT

#76

Actually, the FFE into 4 gate rush does pretty well against roach all in. You are supposed to have like 2 sentries ready if you consistently build them out of your 1 gate, once you know it's a 2 base roach, you just have to add cannons, and holf off with forcefields until your warp gate tech is done. Your warp gate tech should be done only a little later than his roach attack so just warp in stalkers/sentries after that you'll be fine. Add a robo afterwards to get obs and immortal just in case he goes for burrow tech. A 2 base zerg army cannot fight a 2 base protoss army, no reason for you to die there. Just don't warp in zealots if he mass roach.

Maybe you have problem scouting the 2 base roach rush? It's actually the same for any FFE build, you have to scout with either 2-3 probes, or zealot/probe to be safe. Waiting for 2 zealots is a little late, but it'll do too.

Necrophantasia

Japan299 Posts

November 24 2011 04:19 GMT

#77

Thank you for the advice. It seems like its more of a me not scouting right and being unprepared thing than a weakness of the build it seems.

I do have two sentries but the 4 forcefields I get doesn't seen to be enough on shattered temple, but it seems I need to work on scouting. I'll keep that in mind.

Turo

Canada333 Posts

November 24 2011 04:43 GMT

#78

Hey, I really love your guides, they help my play out so much! I have a problem though, with FFE in general. How do you stop the 6 pool? Even if i scout them 1st on a 4 player map, I just have no idea how to respond...

My probes either die defending my cannon, or can't stop the lings from killing my pylon! What do you do if you scout a 6-7 pool?

I know you briefly mention in the guide, but I was wondering if maybe you have a more in depth response?

Alejandrisha

United States6565 Posts

November 24 2011 04:50 GMT

#79

On November 24 2011 13:43 Turo wrote:
Hey, I really love your guides, they help my play out so much! I have a problem though, with FFE in general. How do you stop the 6 pool? Even if i scout them 1st on a 4 player map, I just have no idea how to respond...

My probes either die defending my cannon, or can't stop the lings from killing my pylon! What do you do if you scout a 6-7 pool?

I know you briefly mention in the guide, but I was wondering if maybe you have a more in depth response?

i'll have a friend of mine 6pool me and i'll upload it in the near future